The Pro-Toggle Thread for same gender content.

[Comfterbilly]

Star Wars is also about the relationships, and Bioware is especially known for it. SWTOR is a story based MMO. When talking in companions (which is where we are likely to only see same-gender content), that interaction is primarily about personal relationships.

 

Star Wars > Bioware.

[Demaio-J]

The balance is that the content exists on the same level, implemented in the exact same way as the current content.

[Racheakt]

The balance is that the content exists on the same level, implemented in the exact same way as the current content.

 

The problem is we are only presented as Hetro characters at this time. Why have a orientation choice at character cretion?

 

When the SGR content is added we now have two viable orientations to apply to a toon at creation time.

 

This would make BW the fist MMO to have Sexual Orientation as part of the character creation, as oposed to assuming hetro-centric creation we have now. Edit: Thus reinforcing that Sexual Orentation is equal to Race and Gender.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Racheakt

[Katarine]

The balance is that the content exists on the same level, implemented in the exact same way as the current content.

 

 

Either this or completely REMOVE any & ALL relationship options with npc's, period. No one can be offended then.

 

Gender Preference is not something we choose, it is something we are born with. Our skin colour is not something we choose, it is something we are born with. So, even suggesting a /toggle for Gender preference is almost exactly like a /toggle for Racial preference.

[Comfterbilly]

Either this or completely REMOVE any & ALL relationship options with npc's, period. No one can be offended then.

 

Gender Preference is not something we choose, it is something we are born with. Our skin colour is not something we choose, it is something we are born with. So, even suggesting a /toggle for Gender preference is almost exactly like a /toggle for Racial preference.

 

Well, are you talking about all of us in r/l or are you talking about our characters? Because the demand for same gender flirt prompts is very explicitly a demand for choices, and no one says your character shouldn't have them. What is or is not in r/l a choice for r/l people, is very much a choice for in-game characters, indeed its choices that you are asking for.

 

When you make a character and decide its race (another of your examples), that is a choice you are making - as is that character's skin color: a choice. Are you saying that all the characters in the game have to be exact representations of our r/l selves? That is a tall order for BW to fill indeed.

 

So the tables have turned: color and race are character-creation choices - whatever they say about the player, that player only has to answer that question once. From there he or she can go on and enjoy the game without NPC's prompting him with questions about his ethnicity or background, but somehow in anti-toggle players mind that's not good enough for same-gender content, that no, we need to be asked over and over again from patch to end-of-game, about this one choice that we are not allowed the option of making permanent.

 

When my Sith goes into the cantina they don't ask him again and again, "Are you Irish? You must be Irish, what pixel color is that? R35, Y99, B14? - I thought so, I just knew you were Irish, how about we have a jig?" (I'm Irish).

 

Character orientation and player orientation is not the same thing, or even the same property. The player's r/l orientation is important and beyond rebuke. The character's orientation is just an imaginary pixelated option button.

[JTShadow]

Well lets put it this way. I am straight. I play female characters. Because my character is female my only flirt options are male. I don't have a preference for males, and I don't want my female character flirting with them. I don't expect bioware to remove the option because I don't like it and it doesn't make me feel comfortable. I want my female character, since I also like females to be able to have a romantic relationship or flirt interactions with other females. Some people may want their characters to flirt with males and thats fine, I don't want to take that option away. What you people are saying is that it isn't ok for my female character to flirt with other female npcs. Not only do you not want me to experience this content, but if Bioware doesn't bend to your demands, at the very least you want them to implement an option or toggle letting others know that same gender relationships are a taboo option and aren't accepted.

 

This is not the way real life should be and this is not the way the game should me. I raise my daughter to be more tollerant than most people here seem to be. I tell her that when she grows up she'll fall in love with a person and marry them someday. I let her know some girls like boys and some like girls, and vice versa. I let her know these things are accepted. I don't want to hide this kind of behavior because it just goes to produce more and more hate.

 

Is it truely so bad that the option is presented? You don't need to click on it. I swear I wont make you, but please don't take that option away from me.

 

Besides the game brings up plenty of other situations that I don't agree with, alcohol abuse, murder, lying, racism (against alien species) and theres no way that content should be toggled off because people don't agree with it either. It's a game, if you can't handle it maybe you should do something else with your time. I hear crossword puzzles don't have any same gender interactions, so I'm sure you'll be happy with that.

[AquaSky]

I support the idea of a toggle. While I don't have an issue with homosexual content in media (Torchwood's Captain Jack is swoon-worthy with both the ladies and Ianto), I don't have same-sex inclinations and don't want to roleplay that out with my character. Yes, I know we can just choose other dialogue options, but if I'm not going to use the same-sex options then I don't want to be repeatedly presented with them.

 

And before the inevitable "double standard" response, sure, give an option to filter out hetero content or all flirt options too. It's better to have the option to toggle the content than to alienate a large portion of the player base who doesn't have an interest in roleplaying homosexual romance.

 

That way, LGBT players (or straight dudes who are all "durr hurr girl on girl LOL") can enjoy the content they want to play, and we can enjoy the content that we want to play.

Edited February 12, 2012 by AquaSky

[cylria]

I support the idea of a toggle or at the least a policy that flirt options are always a 4th or 5th chat option (with three non-flirt options). Both of those options would force BW to write scenes better when people are trying to avoid flirting.

 

I remember playing through a scene where my female smuggler was given the option to flirt (a lot) with a young noble. It was the most awkward and painful to watch dialogue I’ve seen in the game so far. I think they were going for the female version of a “flyboy” and it fell flat. I escaped and retried the scene several times including non-flirt options. The non-flirt path was just as bad because it was clearly not how the scene was meant to play out.

 

If I was trying to play a straight male smuggler (or a lesbian female) with that scene written the same way to appease the LGBT crowd, I would have hated it even more. The way BW writes flirting right now, you can’t “just not choose it”, you still have to deal with it one way or another and the three chat options now tend to be extremes.

 

If a toggle forces improvement the non-flirt options, then I’m all for it. I’d like to play someone who’s not easy and not a stone cold witch.

[Mechavomit]

Great son of an aztec warrior!

I think it's obvious by now that some things are unable to co-exist in harmony.

A toggle will make the most people comfortable. Each will be able to block out what they don't want to meet in the game. Where is the problem?

Edited February 12, 2012 by Mechavomit

[grandmasterub]

Okay I've taken a few minutes to calm down and I think the problem is that you don't understand what you're suggesting. Having an option that turns off all hints and references to homosexuality is discrimination. I don't think that's where you were going when you made this thread but you need to appreciate that what you are suggesting is incredibly offensive.

 

Actually I think youre confused about what discrimination is. Discrimination would be telling you that you cannot purchase the game because you are xxxx race/color/gender/sexuality/etc. Providing options to only view content you want to view is in no way discriminatory.

 

It would be no different than a profanity filter if the game dialogue used profanity

Edited February 12, 2012 by grandmasterub

[Verloc_Krieg]

Toggle FTW

[Pink_Saber]

Actually I think youre confused about what discrimination is. Discrimination would be telling you that you cannot purchase the game because you are xxxx race/color/gender/sexuality/etc. Providing options to only view content you want to view is in no way discriminatory.

 

No? A switch specifically for making all the non-straight NPCs vanish from the game is somehow *not* discriminatory?

 

Of course it is. I wouldn't blame anyone for finding something like that extremely insulting, especially when there is a toggle on every conversation already. Are people afraid they're going to act gay if someone doesn't force them not to?

Edited February 12, 2012 by Pink_Saber

[Uluain]

Great son of an aztec warrior!

I think it's obvious by now that some things are unable to co-exist in harmony.

A toggle will make the most people comfortable. Each will be able to block out what they don't want to meet in the game. Where is the problem?

The game already has as part of its fundamental design that the player chooses what content they will explore. This is already working for the full range of moral and ethical choices characters are offered. You either choose a prompt or you can opt not to choose it.

 

Requiring a special extra degree of filtering solely for same-gender content is asking that this content alone be segregated in a way that other content is not.

 

Why, alone of all content in-game, is it only same-gender content for which people call for special measures to make it invisible? How is that not discriminatory?

[AquaSky]

The game already has as part of its fundamental design that the player chooses what content they will explore. This is already working for the full range of moral and ethical choices characters are offered. You either choose a prompt or you can opt not to choose it.

 

Requiring a special extra degree of filtering solely for same-gender content is asking that this content alone be segregated in a way that other content is not.

 

Why, alone of all content in-game, is it only same-gender content for which people call for special measures to make it invisible? How is that not discriminatory?

 

Because it's redundant to repeatedly offer the same choice to a player if it's unwanted. Chances are, they're not going to suddenly decide "Well, I declined the same-sex flirt option the first four times, but this guy's the one that's gonna change my mind." Same goes for gay gamers who don't want to keep seeing hetero prompts. If players can choose to see one, both, or neither, that seems like the most satisfactory solution.

[Demaio-J]

Because it's redundant to repeatedly offer the same choice to a player if it's unwanted. Chances are, they're not going to suddenly decide "Well, I declined the same-sex flirt option the first four times, but this guy's the one that's gonna change my mind."

 

I have, over 3 characters, yet to run in to 4 separate NPCs with a flirt option. Typically these options were brief, went nowhere and were mainly for flavor.

 

Same goes for gay gamers who don't want to keep seeing hetero prompts.

 

The ability to block out hetero flirt options is just as wrong as the other way around.

[Sapphix]

The reason why the toggle is necessary.

 

Take the smuggler for instance, he flirts constantly with women and sometimes it's almost vital for companion affection and quest flow. A same-sex person would still have to flirt with women (which some have said completely ruined their game). If they tried to balance it for both same-sex and opposite-sex players then they would have to sacrifice what's already created.

 

So how would the game distinguish between someone wanting same-sex content and someone who just wants to play the game normally? If there was a toggle then you could select it and play a gay smuggler who flirts with men to get his way rather than women.

[Gwena]

Interesting discussion here; I have mixed feelings on the matter.

 

One one hand, I completely understand the desire to not want to be presented with [flirt] options for characters of a gender that you do not wish your character to flirt. Or, for that matter, if you do not wish your character to do any flirting at all. I personally would not be bothered by romance-toggle options.

 

However, to only allow toggle-off for same gender romance does not send a nice message IMHO. That would say that opposite-gender romance is perfectly ok for everyone to see even if they do not want to, but same-gender romance is something that is not ok for everyone to see if they do not want to.

 

I play a female Smuggler and she is a one-man gal, so I don't pick the non-companion NPC flirt options. There have been times where I felt I was "missing something", or that the scene had been written with the male character in mind, but it generally works well enough to just skip the flirting. I also play a male character and I ignore all flirts as I am not interested in having any of my characters romance a girl (I am female).

 

So, yes to all romance being toggle-able, though somehow I think this may be a lot more work to implement than just adding same-gender romance with no toggle options at all.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Gwena

[BenjaminminU]

Can we have an option to toggle it on/off for each character? I wouldn't mind seeing it if i roleplay a character whos in to same gender romances but on a character thats straight i would just get really uncomfortable even being given the option.

[Pravis]

I think this a great idea, but for a reason I have not seen posted.

 

Parental control:

 

What if I, as a parent, do not want my child to have ANY romance option, same-sex or opposite-sex.

 

The Toggle is not discrimination as it allows for filtering of either, both or none. Its your choice what you want to see or not to see. And more importantly can allow young children to play this game with at least some adult supervision.

[Demaio-J]

I think this a great idea, but for a reason I have not seen posted.

 

Parental control:

 

What if I, as a parent, do not want my child to have ANY romance option, same-sex or opposite-sex.

 

The Toggle is not discrimination as it allows for filtering of either, both or none. Its your choice what you want to see or not to see. And more importantly can allow young children to play this game with at least some adult supervision.

 

The game has a rating for a reason.

[PanikSpreder]

I hate to be a doomsayer, but I wouldn't hold my breath for a feature like this. This is nothing personal since I believe everyone is free to believe what they want and stand up for their sexual orientations - heck, even be courious about it.

 

I know BioWare did this with Dragons Age to some extend, but with Old Republic they are aiming for a much wider demographic. That means they also have to be more conservative and play it safe if they want to make big time in the MMO business.

 

To some extend it would probally be the same for me wishing there was more adult content (as in Conan - that was entertaining), but with the rating and their goals, its never going to happen.

 

But I do hope for you guys that it gets in at some point.

[Racheakt]

I think this a great idea, but for a reason I have not seen posted.

 

Parental control:

 

What if I, as a parent, do not want my child to have ANY romance option, same-sex or opposite-sex.

 

The Toggle is not discrimination as it allows for filtering of either, both or none. Its your choice what you want to see or not to see. And more importantly can allow young children to play this game with at least some adult supervision.

 

Suggested before the forum wipe, I did a poll (when it was active) had about an even split on the idea.

 

It will never fly as there are those who do not see flirting as a subject worth filtering.

 

 

Here again is what I think: Select character orientation along with race and gender.

 

Filter the opposring orientation responses for that toon.

 

Leaving it free form (flirting with everyone reguardless of sex) like Light an Dark points implies that like the alignment on the force it is posssible to for redemption to the other side. Let me explain, can freely go dark and go light. But Orientation is a non-transmutable attribute like gender or race (or so I am told) and to suggest that one can be OGR and go SGR and then return to OGR is the same as saying one can be a Chiss go Sith Prueblood at will ore one can change gender at will. you either are or are not homosexual -- make it so you select it as part of toon creation.

 

This clears many concerns that many camps have:

 

Homosexuals can play the hero they want.

 

Hetrosexuals can play the hero they want.

 

Pervey McPerv can play his lesbian character without seeing the male character prompts (<<<This is the one I think most are arguing for IMHO)

[GenoAmi]

As you have known, Comfter, I'm split on this issue. I am all for LGBT content, and would be in favor of the toggle only if it is the only way LGBT content is included. However, I don't have strong feelings either way. May I ask a few questions, to extrapolate on the idea?

 

And don't worry, I know you advocate toggles for all romance options, which would be a good compromise on both sides of this argument.

 

1.) Would toggles then be in place for light/dark side options? This would be helpful for those that are doing only one side or the other on a character.

 

2.) Would toggles also be preferable for choices that offend currently held companion? I know that it'd be a bit easier for players having companions to know which please. Mostly because, for example, it's hard to always predict what is said. For example, Tharan likes it when I'm nice. However, he doesn't like it when I start quoting Jedi stuff. So, when I choose something like "I'm always here to help", my character then goes "Jedi light side blah blah blah", and then Tharan goes "Psh, like the force exists, it's probably some microscopic organism or something that powers everything. The force is dumb, -1 gazillion affection".

 

3.) Finally, what about toggles for certain behaviors. Now, it could go scattershot like "only sarcastic, mean, jerkface comments", or- what I would think would work best- toggles that auto-pilot conversations with D&D behaviors (good, neutral, evil- and lawful, neutral, chaotic).

 

 

With the above three, it would be possible to auto-pilot conversations- thereby making the gaming experience entirely cinematic, and flow as such.

[Comfterbilly]

The ability to block out hetero flirt options is just as wrong as the other way around.

 

Not according to many of the LGBT players who have said they'd prefer blocking hetero prompts from the game in other threads.

[GenoAmi]

Not according to many of the LGBT players who have said they'd prefer blocking hetero prompts from the game in other threads.

 

I'd hate that we all are painted with the same brush. At the same time, pro-toggle members aren't all doing so out of hate or fear. There's many shades of grey in the argument.