The Pro-Toggle Thread for same gender content.

[MarikLaw]

How about just giving your character a sexuality option? Let players choose on character creation whether the character is Straight (Romance Dialogue Options vs Opposing Gender Only), Gay/Lesbian (Romance Dialogue Options vs Same Gender Only), and Bi (All Romance Dialogue Options Available). Of course whatever you choose should not be advertised on your character (that kinda stuff is private, nobody straight, bi, or gay/lesbian wants an advertisement anywhere on your character declaring your sexual orientation...).

 

Of course that's just a crude way of doing it, you could have the options be "Your character is romantically interested in..." with the options Males, Females, or Both. There's a bunch of ways that it can be done and done properly without the need for it to be a "Toggle."

 

In the long run though I don't see this as necessary as it's your own personal choice. If you don't want to [FLIRT] with a male character than don't, no one is forcing you to press the [FLIRT] option, especially if they don't take out the original three options given (making [FLIRT] a fourth option).

Edited February 13, 2012 by MarikLaw

[Comfterbilly]

As you have known, Comfter, I'm split on this issue. I am all for LGBT content, and would be in favor of the toggle only if it is the only way LGBT content is included. However, I don't have strong feelings either way. May I ask a few questions, to extrapolate on the idea?

 

And don't worry, I know you advocate toggles for all romance options, which would be a good compromise on both sides of this argument.

 

1.) Would toggles then be in place for light/dark side options? This would be helpful for those that are doing only one side or the other on a character.

 

2.) Would toggles also be preferable for choices that offend currently held companion? I know that it'd be a bit easier for players having companions to know which please. Mostly because, for example, it's hard to always predict what is said. For example, Tharan likes it when I'm nice. However, he doesn't like it when I start quoting Jedi stuff. So, when I choose something like "I'm always here to help", my character then goes "Jedi light side blah blah blah", and then Tharan goes "Psh, like the force exists, it's probably some microscopic organism or something that powers everything. The force is dumb, -1 gazillion affection".

 

3.) Finally, what about toggles for certain behaviors. Now, it could go scattershot like "only sarcastic, mean, jerkface comments", or- what I would think would work best- toggles that auto-pilot conversations with D&D behaviors (good, neutral, evil- and lawful, neutral, chaotic).

 

 

With the above three, it would be possible to auto-pilot conversations- thereby making the gaming experience entirely cinematic, and flow as such.

 

Hi GenoAmi, well you pretty much have me pegged and thank you for being so civil. I prefer some option but I'm not specifically "Mister Toggle", a toggle is one way, at character creation is another way, I actually think there are at least a dozen really good options for different ways to implement player-on-character choice. We on the pro-toggle side need to unite around a focused argument and the word toggle is something people instantly identify.

 

Your questions are very good ones, especially your point about how these options would affect companion affection. Trying to answer them, the first thing that comes to mind is that BW did not think things out very clearly when it decided simultaneously 1) how the affection system was going to work but not 2) how that system was going to work when their same gender content options were added.

 

People rightly bring up the concern that reconciling the preferences of everyone on flirts is going to be a strain on developer time. Your questions make me realize however that BW brought this problem on itself by staggering that content from the launch, so that even when they implement the content they're already developing, they're still going to go in and tweak how it affects companion affection. Still you also give me the opportunity to bring up another thing I've been hoping for a chance to say, namely that this side-story content is not all that much to have on their plate, its pretty much a tweak to the affection system and a few little cut scenes.

 

As that relates to a toggle, designating which characters get which content is not any more difficult than designating which classes get which content, its more work to the story tree than anything else, no more difficult than separating warrior and bounty hunter class stories (in fact even easier).

 

I was pointing out earlier, r/l sexuality is important and unchanging, however character creation is by all means a choice. I and others kind of like the idea of making the choice at character creation under a scenario where BW has also corrected all the companion affection options you mention by making these things more natural to your character of choice. Having options to auto-stream alignment choices would be more than I would ask for, since just getting the bare minimum seems hard enough with all the resistance on both sides, but I would be glad if they did indeed address it.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Comfterbilly

[GenoAmi]

Bare minimum? I'm not sure I understand- with my idea, it'd be like watching a normal cutscene, where everything flows together. This would be especially useful in group conversations. I remember something similar to this being implemented in a future BW game, I think ME3 has the option.

[Pink_Saber]

Because it's redundant to repeatedly offer the same choice to a player if it's unwanted. Chances are, they're not going to suddenly decide "Well, I declined the same-sex flirt option the first four times, but this guy's the one that's gonna change my mind."

 

Sorry, but this is just a crock. It's not the only content to do this. There are also thing like light side/dark side options, but I haven't seen a big outcry for a toggle for those.

 

This particular issue is being singled out as toggle-worthy, more than violence, more than slavery, more than torture. It's obviously, blatantly discriminatory.

 

Every time a dialog wheel pops up, there are two out of three choices that aren't selected. That works fine for every other conversation, even though there are choices a particular player will never intentionally make. I honestly don'[t get why some people have such a hard time trusting themselves enough to make a decision for themselves when those options pop up, and need to have their hands held. It's disturbing.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Pink_Saber

[grandmasterub]

No? A switch specifically for making all the non-straight NPCs vanish from the game is somehow *not* discriminatory?

 

Of course it is. I wouldn't blame anyone for finding something like that extremely insulting, especially when there is a toggle on every conversation already. Are people afraid they're going to act gay if someone doesn't force them not to?

 

No discriminatory means to treat a person or group of people differently based on a specific trait. That trait can be anything from age to race to sexual orientation to prefered household pet.

 

Giving a view choice is provided exactly the same to everyone, therefore not discriminatory.

 

Also discrimination is technically legal... What do you think companies do on a daily basis when hiring... They discriminate based upon qualifications... Sports teams discriminate based upon athletic ability... I could go on but I think you get the point.

 

Some members of our society seem to have forgotten that not everyone has to agree with you, nor like you. I actually find the amount of exposure the LGBTQ community getsn TV/games/etc surprising considering the amount of the population represented.

[Comfterbilly]

I honestly don'[t get why some people have such a hard time trusting themselves enough to make a decision for themselves when those options pop up, and need to have their hands held. It's disturbing.

 

Please refrain from making r/l statements about what you suppose to be other players' orientation. You contradict your own points regardless. None of the toggle players have made a point about what is or not a personal r/l choice, yet you are suggesting it is. 1. You can't have it both ways; 2. Please keep your remarks on topic and game related.

 

Thank you.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Comfterbilly

[Comfterbilly]

Bare minimum? I'm not sure I understand- with my idea, it'd be like watching a normal cutscene, where everything flows together. This would be especially useful in group conversations. I remember something similar to this being implemented in a future BW game, I think ME3 has the option.

 

You got my vote, and I think its a cool idea. Example, I am Sith to the core; my faction has actually got me thinking about philosophy, there is no way I want any light side points under any circumstances.

[Pink_Saber]

Please refrain from making r/l statements about what you suppose to be other players' orientation. You contradict your own points regardless. None of the toggle players have made a point about what is or not a personal r/l choice, yet you are suggesting it is. 1. You can't have it both ways; 2. Please keep your remarks on topic and game related.

 

Thank you.

 

How are my remarks not game related?

 

It's fine if you disagree, but this sounds a lot like you're just trying to get me to shut up... and, incidentally, using the kind of tactics you're accusing me of, which I find a bit ironic.

 

Besides that, I have no idea what you're trying to say... Grammatically, it's such a mess that I find a lot of it unreadable.

 

I don't see where I contradicted myself in any way... maybe you can explain that in a way that makes some sense to me.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Pink_Saber

[JTShadow]

Actually I think youre confused about what discrimination is. Discrimination would be telling you that you cannot purchase the game because you are xxxx race/color/gender/sexuality/etc. Providing options to only view content you want to view is in no way discriminatory.

 

It would be no different than a profanity filter if the game dialogue used profanity

 

First off, seperating content would be called segregation, which is a form of discrimination. For your information we shouldn't do that in our nation. It would be exactly the same as if I wanted a toggle in the game to hide players of certain ethnicities, or if you want to stick strictly to game, a toggle that hides all twileks from Empire, because they are our slaves and I don't want to associate with that scum.

 

And by definition profanity is profanity, which is offensive. So you have a filter to hide offensive words, now you want a filter to hide offensive lifestyle choices. Why don't we also add a filter to hide violence?

[JTShadow]

Because it's redundant to repeatedly offer the same choice to a player if it's unwanted. Chances are, they're not going to suddenly decide "Well, I declined the same-sex flirt option the first four times, but this guy's the one that's gonna change my mind." Same goes for gay gamers who don't want to keep seeing hetero prompts. If players can choose to see one, both, or neither, that seems like the most satisfactory solution.

 

The game continues to show me flirt options with male characters when I play my female characters. Those are defnitely unwanted. Lets make them remove cross gender flirt options when your playing a character of another gender now. (Sarcastic)

[AquaSky]

Sorry, but this is just a crock. It's not the only content to do this. There are also thing like light side/dark side options, but I haven't seen a big outcry for a toggle for those.

 

Because you're comparing apples to oranges. Light/dark options arise when there's an issue of morality. Morality is far more situational than sexuality. One might make a moral choice given a particular circumstance, and an immoral choice given another circumstance. It's much less likely that someone that has a set gender preference will suddenly decide to switch-hit based on the looks of an NPC, especially when you consider that those who would opt for a toggle have made that decision regarding their character, one way or the other.

 

Constantly presenting a player with the same option isn't going to be enticing, and eventually gets to be annoying. To me, it seems that there's more intolerance in the camp of "No, you must see the same-sex options, and I don't care if you like it or not, because you're not forced to pick it" than those who say "If you want to play that way, fine, but I have no desire to use that option, and don't want to be prompted."

[Galby]

If you can toggle same sex flirting off I should be able to turn off flirting with the opposite sex. Everyone is gay or no one is.

 

This. And I also want to be able to toggle off all "light side/darkside" options based on my preference.

[JTShadow]

I think this a great idea, but for a reason I have not seen posted.

 

Parental control:

 

What if I, as a parent, do not want my child to have ANY romance option, same-sex or opposite-sex.

 

The Toggle is not discrimination as it allows for filtering of either, both or none. Its your choice what you want to see or not to see. And more importantly can allow young children to play this game with at least some adult supervision.

 

If you as a parent didn't want your child to have these options you should have stood up and used your best judgement and act as a good parent. The box states

 

Rated T for Teen: Blood and Gore, Mild Language, Sexual Themes, Violence[/Quote]

 

If those sexual themes are something you don't want your child experiencing, DONT BUY THE GAME.

[AquaSky]

The game continues to show me flirt options with male characters when I play my female characters. Those are defnitely unwanted. Lets make them remove cross gender flirt options when your playing a character of another gender now. (Sarcastic)

 

If you choose to play female characters, you do so knowing the way the game works currently. Male characters have the ability to court women, and from your prior posts you've stated that you're a heterosexual male, so it would follow that you personally don't take offense to heterosexuality.

 

But players that do object to it would also benefit from a toggle that allows them to select the content they wish to view, so I'm not certain why this would be a sticking point.

[grandmasterub]

First off, seperating content would be called segregation, which is a form of discrimination. For your information we shouldn't do that in our nation. It would be exactly the same as if I wanted a toggle in the game to hide players of certain ethnicities, or if you want to stick strictly to game, a toggle that hides all twileks from Empire, because they are our slaves and I don't want to associate with that scum.

 

And by definition profanity is profanity, which is offensive. So you have a filter to hide offensive words, now you want a filter to hide offensive lifestyle choices. Why don't we also add a filter to hide violence?

 

No, segregation would be having LGBTQ content only available on certain servers.... Having a toggle does not seperate. It merely gives you a choice about what you see. Kind of like watching sports. You dont like basketball? then change the channel to hockey...

 

Adding a choice to what an individual sees in a game is not discriminatory, nor an act of segregation. Please read a webster in the future.

Edited February 13, 2012 by grandmasterub

[Pravis]

If you as a parent didn't want your child to have these options you should have stood up and used your best judgement and act as a good parent. The box states

 

 

 

If those sexual themes are something you don't want your child experiencing, DONT BUY THE GAME.

 

Using sound judgement you'll find that the sexual content amounts to a small pittance, probably on the order of 1% or less of all content. If a toggle allows a child to experience the remaining 99% of a very good game than it is a sound decision.

 

For the record I am not a parent. However, if I can understand that this could be a very good thing for parents on the fence as evidenced by the countless posts when the game launched specifically from outraged parents on this very topic (romance options, sexual content, etc).

 

If you are offended by the thought of a toggle that can filter all secual content than I think you are letting your own good judement being thrown out the window on a pure emotional basis.

[GenoAmi]

No, segregation would be having LGBTQ content only available on certain servers.... Having a toggle does not seperate. It merely gives you a choice about what you see. Kind of like watching sports. You dont like basketball? then change the channel to hockey...

 

Adding a choice to what an individual sees in a game is not discriminatory, nor an act of segregation. Please read a webster in the future.

 

Perhaps, perhaps not, but what I think people who support non-toggle are trying to say is that having the toggle when heterosexuality, romance, murder, philanthropy, any other choice (save for profanity) is not given a toggle communicates that homosexuality is offensive enough to be toggled so it doesn't appear on screen, implying that SGRA options are tantamount to profanity (which censors out racial epithets).

 

I could be wrong, I've been known to be so before, but I think that's what the opposition is trying to communicate.

 

Meanwhile, I'd like to point out that not everyone that supports this option is homophobic or bigoted. There are plenty of reasons to support a sexuality toggle- many people want to have a character that is entirely celibate, some people don't want to see heterosexual options on a character, some don't want to see homosexual options- a toggle for all romantic options (not just homosexual) would be the perfect compromise, in my opinion. Furthermore, there are people that advocate the option to toggle so that they have a higher chance of LGBT content making it with as little conflict as possible. Seeing that, while I, the LGBT community, and supporters would like to see this content in here, we also recognize that the world is not as open-minded to homosexuality as preferable. For people against homosexuality in their media, but are still tolerant enough to want the LGBT community have what they want, this is also an option for this line of thinking (though it's regrettable that the tolerance doesn't extend to having even the option present, in my opinion).

 

 

Yes, there are bigots and homophobic people that like the toggle; and yes, there are extremely sensitive people supporting no toggle at all. The people that are overly sensitive are so after hundreds of years of oppression, and grow more frustrated as open LGBT acceptance is met with derision and stereotypes. The people that are bigoted and homophobic either have an irrational fear or anger stemming from a traumatic event, or have not been taught to tolerate, to accept that which is not dangerous or evil.

 

But we have to recognize that the people who poorly argue, whose intentions aren't pure, who don't know any better- they represent the extremes. Life is never idyllic, but often filled with compromise. Time is better served not in conflict, but in respect, in trying to find ways to understand one another.

[grandmasterub]

If it is implemented with a toggle, then your toggle choices should include all the options.

 

SGR

OGR

SGR&OGR

None

 

either way relationships should never have been added to this game in the first place but that is neither here nor there.

 

My posts are merely pointing out incorrect usage of buzzwords that people learn in school but never actually know what they mean.

 

Both segregation and discrimination happen every day in the world and neither are necessarily a bad thing, however the terms have been associated with hate crimes thus no one knows their actual meaning.

[GenoAmi]

If it is implemented with a toggle, then your toggle choices should include all the options.

 

SGR

OGR

SGR&OGR

None

 

either way relationships should never have been added to this game in the first place but that is neither here nor there.

 

My posts are merely pointing out incorrect usage of buzzwords that people learn in school but never actually know what they mean.

 

Both segregation and discrimination happen every day in the world and neither are necessarily a bad thing, however the terms have been associated with hate crimes thus no one knows their actual meaning.

 

I was speaking in generalities from all things I was seeing in both of the topics, so I apologize if I came off abrasive or combative.

[Vodalus]

I do not support this option. The toggle is already in the game in the form of dialog options, just as it is currently for opposite-gender romances.

[Nozybidaj]

If you can toggle same sex flirting off I should be able to turn off flirting with the opposite sex. Everyone is gay or no one is.

This. And I also want to be able to toggle off all "light side/darkside" options based on my preference.

 

I want to be able to toggle off black people, because you know, if everyone has the option its not discriminatory.... /endsarcasm

[JTShadow]

Using sound judgement you'll find that the sexual content amounts to a small pittance, probably on the order of 1% or less of all content. If a toggle allows a child to experience the remaining 99% of a very good game than it is a sound decision.

 

For the record I am not a parent. However, if I can understand that this could be a very good thing for parents on the fence as evidenced by the countless posts when the game launched specifically from outraged parents on this very topic (romance options, sexual content, etc).

 

If you are offended by the thought of a toggle that can filter all secual content than I think you are letting your own good judement being thrown out the window on a pure emotional basis.

 

For the record I am a parent, if the box says "Sexual Themes" then this may be one of those themes, and if you don't agree with it take some responsibility for yourself and don't buy it for your children. It's the parents duty to watch their children, not anyone elses. They were fairly warned and if they don't like it, tough cookies. It's like saying "Warning: I may smack you in the face over the next year" that smack may never come, but if you still decide to be close enough for the smack and it does hit you, you have noone to blame but yourself, you were warned and you accepted the concequences by continuing.

 

Truthfully this shouldn't even be an issue. You can't toggle off same gender interactions in any of their other games, why should this one be any different? It's that simple.

[JTShadow]

If you choose to play female characters, you do so knowing the way the game works currently. Male characters have the ability to court women, and from your prior posts you've stated that you're a heterosexual male, so it would follow that you personally don't take offense to heterosexuality.

 

But players that do object to it would also benefit from a toggle that allows them to select the content they wish to view, so I'm not certain why this would be a sticking point.

 

To be honest, thats not the way I assumed it worked before I started playing. I assumed that there would be same gender flirt options just like their other games. I was disappointed when I found out that wasn't the case. Would that change my decission to make a female character? No. Do I wan't them to take out opposite gender interactions? No. Do they still make me feel uncomfortable because I'm a male playing a female character that doesn't want to hit on males, but would rather hit on females? Yes. Is it your problem? No. I don't come whining about that and expect any change. You know what I do? I DON'T CLICK THE FLIRT OPTION! It makes me uneasy, I don't like it, I choose a different option and move on with my life.

[mrcaptainpants]

I think the concept of a toggle is a bit silly, but I'd accept it as a compromise if it was a dual toggle for both same-gender and opposite-gender romance options.

 

Having said that, I will also put forth that saying "I don't want to see same-gender romance options" is pretty much the same as saying "I don't want to see interracial romance options".

 

I remember seeing interviews from people in the 50's and 60's that were completely scandalized about the existence of mixed-race couples. It was wrong, unnatural, and they couldn't expose their children to such behavior. Most of us today would (I hope!) find that attitude baffling.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that in 50 years or so, this entire debate is going to look pretty silly to our children and our grandchildren.

Edited February 13, 2012 by mrcaptainpants

[MJHoyle]

Just so you know, the mandalorians had same sex relationships and marriages. So homosexuality is already very much in the star wars universe.

 

That's from some fanfic comic, it doesn't really count.