The Pro-Toggle Thread for same gender content.

[Racheakt]

Your argument, while well thought out and planned in your mind by the obvious large amount of text does not make any sense. The anti toggle crowd isn't trying to censor any racial options. Noone is saying that people can't make a definitive statement about their character. You can currently roll fat, skinny, black, white, brown, blue, orange, red, young, old, freckled, withered, scarred, etc. The only thing is, no matter what you make your character has to be straight currently.

 

The anti-toggle crowd isn't trying to censor anything or limit anyones choices on anything, we just want our choice for same gender interactions. It doesn't take away the pro toggle crwds option not to click it, but the pro-toggle crowd is saying theres something so innately wrong with it that it needs to be toggled like profanity. That it isn't acceptable and should be off unless someone wants to turn it on. It should just be a normal part of the game, and if you don't want to deal with it, don't click the flirt option and move on with the rest of your life.

 

No I am saying that ones sexual preferene is like race or gender (unchangeable not, like ones force alignment which is changeable). Select it when you create the toon. If you are a homosexual toon you would never flirt with other gender the same way if you were a Female toon you would refer themselves as a male, or a Chiss would call themselves a Sith Pureblood.

 

I am not censoring anything, just putting for the option where belongs.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Racheakt

[GenoAmi]

Your argument, while well thought out and planned in your mind by the obvious large amount of text does not make any sense. The anti toggle crowd isn't trying to censor any racial options. Noone is saying that people can't make a definitive statement about their character. You can currently roll fat, skinny, black, white, brown, blue, orange, red, young, old, freckled, withered, scarred, etc. The only thing is, no matter what you make your character has to be straight currently.

 

The anti-toggle crowd isn't trying to censor anything or limit anyones choices on anything, we just want our choice for same gender interactions. It doesn't take away the pro toggle crwds option not to click it, but the pro-toggle crowd is saying theres something so innately wrong with it that it needs to be toggled like profanity. That it isn't acceptable and should be off unless someone wants to turn it on. It should just be a normal part of the game, and if you don't want to deal with it, don't click the flirt option and move on with the rest of your life.

 

However, the problem is that it isn't innately wrong. To say that it is so offensive as to be toggled out like profanity- it implies that you are trying to censor the choice, since when profanity is toggled, it is censored. To say that homosexuality tantamount to profanity is fallacious at best. If there were a toggle for all romance options, that would make sense- otherwise, it is just as ignorable as current heterosexual flirt options, dark/light side options, et cetera.

 

The option to roll a homosexual character is coming- though with same-sex companion characters. What same-sex flirt options allow for is the ability to flirt with some NPC's- as one would in games like Fallout: New Vegas, Dragon Age, et cetera.

[JTShadow]

No I am saying that ones sexual preferene is like race or gender (unchangeable not, like ones force alignment which is changeable). Select it when you create the toon. If you are a homosexual toon you would never flirt with other gender the same way if you were a Female toon you would refer themselves as a male, or a Chiss would call themselves a Sith Pureblood.

 

I am not censoring anything, just putting for the option where belongs.

 

What if I was a straight character, but wanted to flirt to try and get my way with something, with no intention of following through, therefore not intending a homosexual relationship but making the other character believe I was so I could get my way. For instance, as a male if there was a rich male that I could flirt with to get some money, maybe I'd go through the talk, but I definitely wouldn't walk the walk, get what I'm saying? I'm still straight, but leading them to believe otherwise for my own benefit.

 

It would be like a female toon refering to themselves as male if they were in disguise, there are parts of the game where you have to pretend to be the opposing faction, or where you choose to express hatred to one species or another, and you may not in fact feel that way, but use it as a show of force.

[AquaSky]

What if I was a straight character, but wanted to flirt to try and get my way with something, with no intention of following through, therefore not intending a homosexual relationship but making the other character believe I was so I could get my way. For instance, as a male if there was a rich male that I could flirt with to get some money, maybe I'd go through the talk, but I definitely wouldn't walk the walk, get what I'm saying? I'm still straight, but leading them to believe otherwise for my own benefit.

 

Since most flirt options end in a "fade to black", I'd think you would be in for an unpleasant surprise if you wanted just to tease.

[JTShadow]

Since most flirt options end in a "fade to black", I'd think you would be in for an unpleasant surprise if you wanted just to tease.

 

Thats when I spam Esc to redo the conversation lol

Edited February 16, 2012 by JTShadow

[MaximusRex]

I'm fine with Same Gender Romance, and I'm fine with having romance options as a toggle for both same gender and opposite gender, and I also think they don't need to be mutually exclusive toggles.

 

Basically, as long as it doesn't restrict my play experience I don't have an issue with others being bale to opt out, so to speak.

[Comfterbilly]

However, the problem is that it isn't innately wrong. To say that it is so offensive as to be toggled out like profanity- it implies that you are trying to censor the choice, since when profanity is toggled, it is censored. To say that homosexuality tantamount to profanity is fallacious at best. If there were a toggle for all romance options, that would make sense- otherwise, it is just as ignorable as current heterosexual flirt options, dark/light side options, et cetera.

 

The option to roll a homosexual character is coming- though with same-sex companion characters. What same-sex flirt options allow for is the ability to flirt with some NPC's- as one would in games like Fallout: New Vegas, Dragon Age, et cetera.

 

If I could pick just one thing to say that I could successfully communicate with you today, it would be that players who want the toggle don't want the toggle because same gender content is "wrong", but because it doesn't fit with the way some of our toons are envisioned, it just breaks the immersion. That is a very mild complaint. My only significant complaint is that having these flirt options foisted upon me with no regard for what I the paying player wants, is quite aggravating. Personally it is a game-breaker not because it is "wrong" but because it is an unwanted reminder of allllllllllllllll the r/l political arguments that I play this game to get away from.

 

If you understand that the reason we object is not on a moral basis (maybe even in opposition to moral arguments), I hope you will see that all we are trying to do is be left alone so we can forget about all the r/l conflict, when all I want to do is smash some jedi and let the world do what it will. It has nothing - not one thing - to do with profanity.

[GenoAmi]

EDITS: Lol tag fail.

 

If I could pick just one thing to say that I could successfully communicate with you today, it would be that players who want the toggle don't want the toggle because same gender content is "wrong", but because it doesn't fit with the way some of our toons are envisioned, it just breaks the immersion. That is a very mild complaint. My only significant complaint is that having these flirt options foisted upon me with no regard for what I the paying player wants, is quite aggravating. Personally it is a game-breaker not because it is "wrong" but because it is an unwanted reminder of allllllllllllllll the r/l political arguments that I play this game to get away from.

 

If you understand that the reason we object is not on a moral basis (maybe even in opposition to moral arguments), I hope you will see that all we are trying to do is be left alone so we can forget about all the r/l conflict, when all I want to do is smash some jedi and let the world do what it will. It has nothing - not one thing - to do with profanity.

 

I was actually responding to JTShadow

 

[spoiler=JTShadow quote]

Your argument, while well thought out and planned in your mind by the obvious large amount of text does not make any sense. The anti toggle crowd isn't trying to censor any racial options. Noone is saying that people can't make a definitive statement about their character. You can currently roll fat, skinny, black, white, brown, blue, orange, red, young, old, freckled, withered, scarred, etc. The only thing is, no matter what you make your character has to be straight currently.

 

The anti-toggle crowd isn't trying to censor anything or limit anyones choices on anything, we just want our choice for same gender interactions. It doesn't take away the pro toggle crwds option not to click it, but the pro-toggle crowd is saying theres something so innately wrong with it that it needs to be toggled like profanity. That it isn't acceptable and should be off unless someone wants to turn it on. It should just be a normal part of the game, and if you don't want to deal with it, don't click the flirt option and move on with the rest of your life.

 

 

I recognize that not everyone that is pro-toggle is like that, I even made a post to that effect.

 

[spoiler=quote from myself]

Perhaps, perhaps not, but what I think people who support non-toggle are trying to say is that having the toggle when heterosexuality, romance, murder, philanthropy, any other choice (save for profanity) is not given a toggle communicates that homosexuality is offensive enough to be toggled so it doesn't appear on screen, implying that SGRA options are tantamount to profanity (which censors out racial epithets).

 

I could be wrong, I've been known to be so before, but I think that's what the opposition is trying to communicate.

 

Meanwhile, I'd like to point out that not everyone that supports this option is homophobic or bigoted. There are plenty of reasons to support a sexuality toggle- many people want to have a character that is entirely celibate, some people don't want to see heterosexual options on a character, some don't want to see homosexual options- a toggle for all romantic options (not just homosexual) would be the perfect compromise, in my opinion. Furthermore, there are people that advocate the option to toggle so that they have a higher chance of LGBT content making it with as little conflict as possible. Seeing that, while I, the LGBT community, and supporters would like to see this content in here, we also recognize that the world is not as open-minded to homosexuality as preferable. For people against homosexuality in their media, but are still tolerant enough to want the LGBT community have what they want, this is also an option for this line of thinking (though it's regrettable that the tolerance doesn't extend to having even the option present, in my opinion).

 

 

Yes, there are bigots and homophobic people that like the toggle; and yes, there are extremely sensitive people supporting no toggle at all. The people that are overly sensitive are so after hundreds of years of oppression, and grow more frustrated as open LGBT acceptance is met with derision and stereotypes. The people that are bigoted and homophobic either have an irrational fear or anger stemming from a traumatic event, or have not been taught to tolerate, to accept that which is not dangerous or evil.

 

But we have to recognize that the people who poorly argue, whose intentions aren't pure, who don't know any better- they represent the extremes. Life is never idyllic, but often filled with compromise. Time is better served not in conflict, but in respect, in trying to find ways to understand one another.

 

 

This is why I say that you and I get along well, Comfter~ We can disagree without resorting to epithets.

Edited February 17, 2012 by GenoAmi

[Comfterbilly]

EDITS: Lol tag fail.

 

 

 

I was actually responding to JTShadow

 

[spoiler=JTShadow quote]

 

 

I recognize that not everyone that is pro-toggle is like that, I even made a post to that effect.

 

[spoiler=quote from myself]

 

 

This is why I say that you and I get along well, Comfter~ We can disagree without resorting to epithets.

 

Yeah I like your arguments too, maybe why I'd rather respond to your response to JTShadow than let him warp the debate in his own mind I liked your post a lot, not just the parts I agree with, because I like seeing your line of reasoning and people learn more from constructive disagreement than they learn from singing to the choir.

[GenoAmi]

*Nods* Well, I can't take all the credit- I was in the Mock Trial team freshman year, and I'm currently studying to be a preacher, so mediation is becoming more and more of a necessity- and trust me, it isn't my strong suit.

 

The only real problem I have (personally) with your application of the toggle idea is that it should probably be put somewhere at the first time the game application opens, or in character generation. The reason I bring this up is that if the toggle switch is put in the installation process, someone who isn't as tech-savvy (like me) might have trouble changing it if a click in the wrong place happened either way. If it were in-application, it would be easier to find, and probably wouldn't require me to sift through my system to find the switch. This could be said either way- a person who doesn't want it accidentally clicking that they want SGRA content, and people who do want SGRA content accidentally clicking that they don't.

 

However, I am not a member of the LGBT community no matter how much I support them- so I don't know how the toggle would affect their rights, or how it would make them feel. I've never had that sort of oppression, so I can't say that the toggle is right or wrong. I will say that it's the best compromise for two very stubborn groups that each feel their subscription and beliefs are put on the line with this issue.

[mrcaptainpants]

However, I am not a member of the LGBT community no matter how much I support them- so I don't know how the toggle would affect their rights, or how it would make them feel. I've never had that sort of oppression, so I can't say that the toggle is right or wrong. I will say that it's the best compromise for two very stubborn groups that each feel their subscription and beliefs are put on the line with this issue.

 

As a member of the LGBT community I'll say a few things. First, for GLBT people, this is obviously an issue that cuts pretty close to our emotional core. As this topic has progressed, I've been doing a lot of soul-searching, trying to figure out not only how I feel about various things, but why I feel that way.

 

I think I struggle with what I'll call a "Message -vs- Method" conflict. For example, looking at this issue from a different angle, let's say I, as Bioware, call out to my players and say, "Hey players, now you can role play your character as being any sexual orientation that you choose! All you have to do is select the option you prefer in the preferences menu!"

 

As a gay person, I might think that's a bonus. "Hey", I might think, "I can finally play a gay character if I want to! Yay for me!".

 

But if you say "Hey, gay players! Because some heterosexual players find you offensive, we are going to give them the ability to turn off any options that might suggest any gay themes. But don't worry, we're going to make sure you can censor all that hetero stuff too! All you have to do is select the option you prefer in the preferences menu!", the reaction from the gay community will be vastly different.

 

In this case, the "method" being used is the same (the creation of dual toggles), but the message is entirely different. And, frankly, offensive.

 

What I have been asking myself is this: If we lived in a perfect world, where there was no bigotry based on petty differences such as sexual orientation, would I be offended by the ability for others to select not to see gay-themed content? I will honestly answer: No, I wouldn't. Because I'd know that it isn't about someone trying to send a message to me that I don't belong in their world.

 

So I guess what I'm saying is, the message is more important than the method to me. When I see people posting things like "gay people don't belong in video games", that sends a message. And its not a good one. Its not even a neutral one. Its very, very close to "Black people have no business thinking they should be able to swim in our pool". And it feels crappy.

 

So...yes, I think a dual toggle can work. But people have to realize that you can't sell it to the GLBT community by attaching the messages:

 

"You don't belong in a video game"

"Any gay-themed content is automatically political and I don't want to see your politics"

--and--

"I need to protect my kids from you"

 

Those are awful messages, and they will always be met with resistance. Not that everyone in this thread has been saying that, and I realize that. I'm very appreciative of the efforts many people have made to engage in civil discussion. But I've seen plenty of the afore-mentioned kinds of comments and attitudes in other threads.

 

 

TL;DR Let's all think about what we're saying before we start talking about what we should be doing. Message is important.

Edited February 17, 2012 by mrcaptainpants

[GenoAmi]

Thank you, captainpants. Again, while I don't understand (no one understands how another group feels without being in said group), I do support LGBT rights, and your argument is very sound, and it articulates what a lot of people who are against the toggle are trying to say, but haven't quite enumerated.

[EsotericWhim]

Why not make it even easier by just having a sexuality option in the character creation screen?

 

Sure, have heterosexual as the default option, but also have a homosexual and bisexual option and then tie the ability to flirt with characters dependent on that.

 

That way people are not going to actively choose homosexual options inadvertently, and that way there is no potential, and very real minefield, of discriminating and insulting the LGBT community.

[VelnikSP]

I'm not.

[Joogsw]

I'm pro-toggle but maybe in another way. Just make it an option within the game that allows you to tick the box in options that makes it possible to allow selection of sexual preference in the character creation screen or if you don't want it in there to set it in the general options screen so you always make a char with a prefered sexual preference.

 

maybe i want to create a bisexual char for one run and a heterosexual for another and a gay one for yet another. Although i do realise that it is focusing to much attention on a sporadic [flirt] option that is easily ignored.

 

But this way it's not a question of discrimination in any way but reduced to a game option you can set any wich way you want it.

[Baaleos]

Why make a toggle switch that enables gay/hetro for your character, when they really should just make the dialog choices, and then you have the choice of 'use them' or 'not use them'

 

 

In RL you cant flick a switch to enable gay mode.

Its all about choices, and preferences in the moment.

 

 

Eg- I didnt wake up this morning, thinking - Oh I wana enable my Gay Switch today.

 

 

Its more subtle than that... more like Dark Side and Light Side points.

Eg - Every conversation/Encounter a potential place to express each persons individuality sexuality. The person has a choice of whether to make the conversation relevant to their sexual preferences or not.

 

eg - Hot Guy - Flirt, or No Flirt (Seeing Conversation choices here for in-game)

 

Im just imagining what the game would be like if a Gay / Straight system was introduced like the Dark Side and Light Side points.

Imaging the appearance changes.

 

I would be sparkling with Glitter Make-up, and rainbow hair, and Mascara.

lol

 

Ooooh Cross Dressing!!!

 

 

Note - Im not trying to be complicated, or Pro or Con to a Toggle - I just dont understand why people would be offended by having a dialog choice that they could optionally choose to ignore, or not use.

 

My favorite saying is

'Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it!'

 

Surely providing the dialog choices and having the choice of use them or dont use them, would cover all bases?

 

 

I think you would likely get as many people complaining about a passive 'offer all' approach like im suggesting, as well as people who complain about a 'toggle' approach.

 

Either way, you will have Religious Zealots and Anti-Gay people who consider either approach offensive.

Its inevitable, its almost impossible to please everyone - so with that knowledge, would it not be better to do it the 'best' way - whichever that may be, irrespective of peoples views.

 

My view on the toggle, is that you would in effect be providing a different gaming experience to LGBT players, that the non-LGBT players would not have access to, unless they go and untoggle the toggle.

 

You end up with 2 diverging versions of gameplay, story, and dialogs.

Imagine the amount of testing involved with that.

 

In-House game testers will have to enable Gay Mode, and test dialog choices

then they will need to Enable Straight Mode, and test dialog choices again.

 

And they would have to do this for EVERY quest, every dialog etc

Edited February 17, 2012 by Baaleos

[themacr]

Just wondering from a political standpoint if Bioware/EA want's to be associated with "Disabling the Gay" in videogames tbh.

 

Like the poster above me said. Same sex/oposite sex relations are not black and white.

The choices you make should not start out with "Do him/her on the bridge" but should be far more subtle. I dont believe for a second that there is ANY adult male that NEVER made a flrity comment to a friend of him. Even if just ment as a joke.

 

And what would happen If I invite you into my ship, then start flirting with my companions. This would be hard to block for you once you are in the conversation.

 

And what is next? There are alot more political hot issues that surround sex. and the differences between males/females. LIke Headcloths for muslims. Are we going to ask for a togglemode of those aswell? Or then go 1 step further and have everyone wear Burka's unless we untoggle it?

 

How about the different social outfits like dance outfits and slavegirl outfits, Where is the toggle for that?

And how about racists. do we get a toggle to make all characters white OR black for instance?

 

I can understand that there are people who prefer not to be associated or exposed to ANY kind of same sex situations, but in my honest opinion, its those people that should be chanced, not the game they play. Although its perfectly possible to implement the toggle function that the OP is talking about. I'd strongly oppose to it for political reasons. And although OP aksed for Game/interface reasons to object. That is besides the point as you are asking for the function for political reasons also.

[Baaleos]

I would personally love to see no politics involved with the choice, and just make it balanced for both groups of players, 2 versions of the same game is unrealistic, make the game with the LGBT capability, and then its up to the player whether they use the dialog choices.

 

Bioware made the 'choice' to add Romance to The Old Republic.

 

They `should` therefore obligated under equality laws to make it balanced and NOT make a whole bunch of hoops and hurdles for one group of players, that the other group doesnt have to face.

 

 

You make a toggle that turns Gay off, then whats next?

 

Quests that only Gays can play?

* Pickup guy at the local cantina.

* Fix your hair before going out.

* Get a Spray Tan

Quests that only straights can play?

* Pickup a Hooka from the local cantina.

* Go to the Gym

* Brag to Straight Friends about Conquests.

 

 

Seriously, that toggle come to think of it, just creates a divide that should not be acceptable. It verges on creating game play opportunities for one orientation, that the other will miss out on, and favoring one group over the other would be counter productive and possibly illegal.

[llesna]

No, I can't support this.

 

Let's imagine for a moment that someone got upset about the non-white humans in the game and asked for a toggle to turn them white. Conversely, what if a number of non-white gamers requested that all white humans be made black, on the basis that this was offensive to them? Can you imagine the fully-justified comments that would fly about this? It would be rightly deemed racism and would seemingly suggest that BW is okay with racism.

 

Let's further imagine that some people got upset about seeing women in positions of power within the game and asked for a toggle to make them men. Would this be something that people should be able to demand, just because they have sexist viewpoints? No. A request of this nature would never be right. It would still be wrong if the reverse were requested for by female gamers requesting that no men should be in positions of power in the game.

 

In the same way, giving players a way to opt-out of any LGBT conversations or parts of the game would give the impression that BW is okay with bigotry and prejudice on the part of its gamers. Some people may not see it that way, but when you discriminate against people on account of their lawful sexual or gender preferences, you are being hurtfully prejudiced and trying to segregate the community. Little history lesson: apartheid failed.

 

SWTOR is just a game, but it is a game played by real people. From a player perspective, I do not want non-roleplay prejudice in this game from other players. If players wish to roleplay as someone with prejudices in a mature way (i.e., a pureblood sith hating aliens), that's something different, but catering this game to the desires of prejudiced gamers: no thank you!

 

This is an opportunity to open up your eyes and reinvestigate your viewpoints. You cannot just "shut out" part of the world because you don't think it's right. What next? Would you ask for the Mass Effect games to have an option to turn this off too? What about Dragon Age? The problem is not with these games but with the fact that your views are heavily prejudiced and unwelcome.

 

I respect that you have put this together in an elegant way, but my underlying disdain towards your proposal remains.

 

May peace and enlightenment find you.

 

Kind regards

llesna

[Baaleos]

Lets also not forget.

 

Dialog choices are not just a form of Plot Advancement.

 

Its a form of expression.

 

It is counter productive, and in my opinion, insane- to 'inhibbit' a persons ability to express themselves, through a checkbox.

 

 

If the player sees a dialog choice they dont like, they should just choose something else.

 

* Pinch Andronikas's Bum (Flirt)

* Thats good

* The Empire will win

* We will need help

 

I mean, you can see the obvious romance option above, and you still have 3 good choices available. Is it too much to ask, that the Straight players stop acting like the Flirt option is corrupting them, and trying to convert them.

 

If they really dont want to flirt with a dude, then they should choose something that isnt a flirt.

[Comfterbilly]

...giving players a way to opt-out of any LGBT conversations or parts of the game would give the impression that BW is okay with bigotry and prejudice on the part of its gamers. Some people may not see it that way, but when you discriminate against people on account of their lawful sexual or gender preferences, you are being hurtfully prejudiced and trying to segregate the community. Little history lesson: apartheid failed

 

Request: please don't embarrass yourself with any more shallow, hollow attempts at a "history" "lesson". You just do not want to know how naive it sounds, anyway its out of context.

 

 

Furthermore, same gender flirt prompts without a "toggle" would make SGRA options the only toon-identity trait that was subject to discrimination. I'm not sure why the most hyper-political crowd tends to be so blind to irony, but LGBT discrimination is exactly what the anti-toggle crowd is calling for by insisting that toon-orientation be the only toon-identity item that is not, for lack of "toggle", deemed important enough to be an option in the character creation screen.

 

Example 1: when you pick a female character, that "toggle" allows the male NPC's to enable their flirt prompts.

 

Example 2: when you choose your toon's race and complexion, that "toggle" creates a story for a toon of that "ethnicity".

 

Example 3: when you choose your toon's sexuality.... oh wait you can't choose your toon's sexuality - you have to spend the entire game being treated as if you're bisexual and being distracted by the political message and the idea that Bioware should be effectively harassing paying customers with a political argument that many of us prefer not to promote with our subscriptions.

 

On one hand anti-togglers will tell you sexuality is not a choice, on the other hand they want it to be a choice you have to make over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.......

[Voqar]

IMO, the content in the game should appeal to the majority, and creating specialized content for the few is a waste of dev effort.

 

Same gender romance/content is simply not necessary since it is not content for the masses.

 

I would much rather see them add more flashpoints, planets, ops, heck, even warzones for pseudo PvPers to faceroll to ez-mode purples.

 

Anything that the majority might use rather than something the majority probably will never do.

 

I find this entire argumetn to be ridiculous, actually. I'm not homophobic, anti-gay, or anthing stupid like that - but this is a video game and there's a time and place for everything.

[GenoAmi]

Comfter, I understand that you don't want the game to be politicized- I understand that, I do. However, I don't understand why having same-gender flirt options politicizes the game. Yes, this argument is loaded with politics all around. However, how does the content itself do so? I'd be bewildered as well if the characters suddenly went on a soap box about homosexuality (which is what ruined Ellen DeGeneres' storyline in the sitcom she starred in). But what if the characters were in love and happened to be gay (Much like Ellen DeGeneres' talk show, which is a giant leap better than the sitcom she starred in)? I mean, Fallout: New Vegas didn't politicize homosexuality (though it did include it as a taboo in the Brotherhood of Steel- but as a necessity for survival, not morally), but was lauded for Arcade Gannon being a normal man in the midst of this chaos, and just happened to be gay. Arcade didn't constantly remind the player he was gay, nor can you romance Arcade (or pretty much anyone in your party, methinks Obsidian was still deciding whether or not to kill off The Courier at the end of the storyline)- he was just himself, and was a rich, well-developed character.

 

If I'm off-base, I apologize greatly, but I am curious as to how the content itself politicizes the game.

[Raximillian]

If you don't want your guy to flirt with another dude....don't click the Flirt dialogue option.

 

That was so challenging that I think I need to go lay down.

 

I'll go with DigiFluid here as the best solution. Add as many options as they want, we have the option not to choose them. I've skipped plenty of [flirt] options because I know Mako will get mad at me

[Comfterbilly]

Comfter, I understand that you don't want the game to be politicized- I understand that, I do. However, I don't understand why having same-gender flirt options politicizes the game. Yes, this argument is loaded with politics all around. However, how does the content itself do so? I'd be bewildered as well if the characters suddenly went on a soap box about homosexuality (which is what ruined Ellen DeGeneres' storyline in the sitcom she starred in). But what if the characters were in love and happened to be gay (Much like Ellen DeGeneres' talk show, which is a giant leap better than the sitcom she starred in)? I mean, Fallout: New Vegas didn't politicize homosexuality (though it did include it as a taboo in the Brotherhood of Steel- but as a necessity for survival, not morally), but was lauded for Arcade Gannon being a normal man in the midst of this chaos, and just happened to be gay. Arcade didn't constantly remind the player he was gay, nor can you romance Arcade (or pretty much anyone in your party, methinks Obsidian was still deciding whether or not to kill off The Courier at the end of the storyline)- he was just himself, and was a rich, well-developed character.

 

If I'm off-base, I apologize greatly, but I am curious as to how the content itself politicizes the game.

 

No you're not off base in the sense that your comments are out of line etc don't worry about that, the only people who are out of line are the players with no common sense or manners, who can't talk about the subject without screaming about how everyone is a bigot.

 

I know where you're coming from with the question of how does lack of a toggle politicize the game, I think the answer is how sensitive is the player to politics; even if one's not sensitive at all, the subject itself is a little political. For people who are really tired of politics being paraded around everywhere they go, its aggravating to have the prompts foisted upon you without at least being able to turn them off because no matter how much you'd like to shut it out, you're just sitting there thinking about how hard you work for the money you put into the game, how much you value the free time you have to do it, and here you are on your own dollar on your rare time to enjoy it, with these prompts. For people with low tolerance for r/l politics, not having a "toggle", for me its just going to grate on me every day looking at these flirts that are only there in the form they're in because of politics.

 

I argued from the game perspective, now I'm trying to argue from the perspective of the LGBT community and I'm convinced being able to choose what you want your character to be, the same way you choose your toon's race and gender, is much fairer to the player no matter what their toon's orientation. Not being able to select it in my opinion is just diminishing the importance of sexuality, I think its clearly less respectful. The more I talk to the die-hard anti-toggle crowd the more clear it is they care less about being able to play the game they want than they care about trying to 'guilt' bioware into inflicting their r/l politics on all the other players in the game.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Comfterbilly