Feelinestars Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Mass Effect 1 & 2 had a better story than swtor. Bioware should just stick to their guns and keep up their fantastic quality single player games, rather than making below-average mmorpg's Ding ding ding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romiz Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 No it is a good MMORPG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixiooo Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Funny. I felt the same way as you OP about World of Warcraft and Arthas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biogood Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Something I never quite understood is why so many people keep calling Swtor a single player game. Yeah, they make the single player aspect of the game more enjoyable, but as far as questing tasks go, it's really no different than what you would do in RIFT or WoW. Swtor just makes it so your character has an interesting storyline / purpose, rather than just being a faceless avatar, running around and completing mundane tasks. Endgame is exactly the same as any other mmo has always been, you team up with a large group of players, raid an instance, and kill a boss. Hell, even at one point in time, WoW got rid of 95% of elite mobs all over the game-world so that they would be more solo friendly, instead of having group quests in every zone like Swtor currently has. How the hell is Swtor any less qualified as an MMO than all the others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azzras Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 So what do you all think makes an MMO then? Just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azzras Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Something I never quite understood is why so many people keep calling Swtor a single player game. Yeah, they make the single player aspect of the game more enjoyable, but as far as questing tasks go, it's really no different than what you would do in RIFT or WoW. Swtor just makes it so your character has an interesting storyline / purpose, rather than just being a faceless avatar, running around and completing mundane tasks. Endgame is exactly the same as any other mmo has always been, you team up with a large group of players, raid an instance, and kill a boss. Hell, even at one point in time, WoW got rid of 95% of elite mobs all over the game-world so that they would be more solo friendly, instead of having group quests in every zone like Swtor currently has. How the hell is Swtor any less qualified as an MMO than all the others? Some ppl enjoy mundane? That's all I can figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samy_Merchi Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 If it had been single player there probably wouldn't be as much content, let alone there wouldn't be the possibility to play as Imperial, which seems to be quite popular with people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claymaniac Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Its a real MMORPG. You are welcome to not like it, or not consider it one or whatever. It is what it is, if you don't like it, why are you paying for it? Surely you don't think being condescending about it is going to make them insta-switch the game to cater to you overnight do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavenSword Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 (edited) Necro but still a good point. I think OP is missing the key thing here. The storytelling, while great is layered behind the atrocious MMO structure. Let me give you a rough example. Master: "Enemy has this doomweapon, time is of the utmost importance. I need you to go to X location and meet with Y person IMMEDIATELY." You: "Right on it master. But first I need to pick up all the quests in the area, and deal with their dire crisis while I deal with your dire crisis or else I will fall behind in level". No single player story is structured like this and it is very immersion breaking. The key factor is being forced to grind out something (planet arc, PvP, flash-points, space, whatever) to reach the minimal level threshold to be strong enough for the next area, so you can finally progress the story..... There is like no sense of urgency in this game and its easy to lose interest in the story when you got 2 completely different and critical arcs going on simultaneously, plus random fetch quests. That is how this games natural progression is designed to be, and its completely counter productive with the immersion and story telling they were trying to create. This is the biggest issue IMO, and I believe it stems from having planets with level ranges and wanting the class quest to be completed at character level 50. (Really are level 25 weak enemies ten times stronger then level 14 weak enemies? Completely unnecessary and restricting MMO game mechanic). Here is a list of all the things the MMO took away from this game. 1) Balance. In single player balance is not important at all. Which means we can have more character building options and choices. In multiplayer optimization is essential, so subpar choices end up being useless (and patched out or designed out from the get go), you end up with the feeling of little character building. In single player, you can have a giant list of abilities and or classes, and who gives a **** if one choice is not as optimal as another? 2) Crafting system. When is the last time you have seen a grindy as hell crafting system that restricted your character to only 1/8th of the crafting content in a single player game? The MMO aspect kind of forces you to pick up 3 skills and farm them while you level if you want to keep up with the MMO side of this game at all. In a single player crafting system is not mandatory at all, but an interesting side feature. 3) Mount speed. If this was a single player game with a personal speeder, it could go 300 MPH and crash into stuff instead of being the speed of a glorified golf cart. 4) No difficulty level. In a single player game, if you want to mow through stuff just put it on easy and enjoy the uber tier strength of your character while you AOE 1 shot most mobs. If you want a challenge, throw it on hard mode. In this game its set to easy, except enemies have way to much health which makes it feel very grindy. I mean you have to do like 3 rotations to kill an elite walking around, and maybe 1.5 to kill a strong enemy. And there is a lot of strong enemies. You have to do like a full AOE rotation to clear trash. Yes this game is very grindy.... because its an MMO. 5) Replay-ability. Who remembers just starting a file over just to see a few different choices or whatever in the game? In this game, its foolish to make a new character you have already played through, because you have to pain stakenly grind your way through it. 70% of the game length comes from the artificial grind of the planet quest arcs, more apparent when you already do them on like 3 characters... 6) Modding. Single player games can benefit from thousands of content creators who do this in their spare time for free because they are passionate about the game... "failed" MMOs need to rely on a skeleton crew to throw together an XPac for additional content. 7) Quest rewards. In a single player game, you could offer the player an obscene amount of credits to break his or her morals and it wouldnt break game balance, because who gives a ****? In an MMO balance has to be carefully weaved into the game. So you really cant have a choice like that without it being completely imagination based instead of actually making them rich. Really ambitious project but not ambitious enough. They followed the same tired MMO formula which was completely counterproductive for the immersion they wanted to create. Which is why this game went F2P in less then a year and why I am losing interest already after just resubbing a week ago. (last time was on launch) Edited June 22, 2016 by HeavenSword Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolodome Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Master: "Enemy has this doomweapon, time is of the utmost importance. I need you to go to X location and meet with Y person IMMEDIATELY." You: "Right on it master. But first I need to pick up all the quests in the area, and deal with their dire crisis while I deal with your dire crisis or else I will fall behind in level". I do agree with this point, which is why increased XP events are such a godsend. But I don't expect them to do much at this point. I know they already revamped the quests, so that you can more or less do "planet story" and "class story," and you'll be where you need to be. I played this game in beta and I distinctly recall raising this very concern. On the one hand, it is good design if you are playing with someone else; there's plenty of stuff to do that fits right into the leveling. On the other hand, class story can't be played together if you're the same class and you can only spectate if you're a different class. The mixture of these two worlds is problematic. I have leveled both with someone and on my own, and both have problems because they are too mixed. I almost feel like the class stories should get a buff to allow you to level completely that way and the planet stories should also get a buff, so that if you're playing with someone, you can level completely that way. It's not a perfect solution to the problem. It would make leveling twice as fast, which could arguably lead to people being bored quicker. It could also mess up people who want to take things slower and enjoy more of the game, but with the right coding, there are things that could be done to alleviate the problem. For instance, make double class XP and double planet XP toggle options, but only allow double planet XP if you're grouped and only allow double class XP if you're solo. Etc. IME, giving players the tools to "do it their way" is invariably welcomed and increases player interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCT Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 People will complain about anything, its the human nature. No game is perfect, enjoy it or keep complaining, I dare you Damn right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesira Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 No I love that SWTOR is an MMO, I highly doubt we'd still be getting updates and new stories if it were single player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devincor Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Master: "Enemy has this doomweapon, time is of the utmost importance. I need you to go to X location and meet with Y person IMMEDIATELY." You: "Right on it master. But first I need to pick up all the quests in the area, and deal with their dire crisis while I deal with your dire crisis or else I will fall behind in level". No single player story is structured like this and it is very immersion breaking. Yes, it is immersion breaking, but that is not the fault of it being an MMO, it is bad story telling. The problem could of been solved with different wording. "Enemy is starting to build his doomweapon, we have a limited window of opportunity. I need you to go to X location and meet with Y person by the end of the day." That change gives you leeway. The key factor is being forced to grind out something (planet arc, PvP, flash-points, space, whatever) to reach the minimal level threshold to be strong enough for the next area, so you can finally progress the story.... 4) No difficulty level....except enemies have way to much health which makes it feel very grindy. I mean you have to do like 3 rotations to kill an elite walking around, and maybe 1.5 to kill a strong enemy. And there is a lot of strong enemies. You have to do like a full AOE rotation to clear trash. Yes this game is very grindy.... because its an MMO. 5) Replay-ability. ... In this game, its foolish to make a new character you have already played through, because you have to pain stakenly grind your way through it. 70% of the game length comes from the artificial grind of the planet quest arcs, more apparent when you already do them on like 3 characters... I am not sure you have ever experienced a real grind. This game did not and does not have a level grind, especially now. At launch, I was able to get my first character (Commando) to max level by the end of third week of causal play. Now you can do it in a span of days of causal play. Currently you can stay "on level" by doing just the class story and planetary arcs. That is about 10 quest per planet. You don't have to do the side quests at all. If you do, you will be way over level, you can be 65 by the end of Act 1 on Alderaan. While some of the old school MMO's used to have grinds, even they now have reduced the amount of work to level. (My first MMO was Everquest, it took me a year and half to get one of my characters to max level as casual play.) 1) Balance. In single player balance is not important at all. Against other players correct, but against the difficulty level/setting of the game itself there is a Balance mantained by the developer. 2) Crafting system. When is the last time you have seen a grindy as hell crafting system that restricted your character to only 1/8th of the crafting content in a single player game? My experience with crafting in Single player games has been games of chance of finding the drops you need to craft the items. Which to me at least feels somewhat grindy. 3) Mount speed. If this was a single player game with a personal speeder, it could go 300 MPH and crash into stuff instead of being the speed of a glorified golf cart. I believe this was explained once as a game engine thing. 6) Modding. Single player games can benefit from thousands of content creators who do this in their spare time for free because they are passionate about the game... "failed" MMOs need to rely on a skeleton crew to throw together an XPac for additional content. Two parts to this: 1) most single player games do not have players as content creators (at least what I see as content), there are some that allow players to create skins for looks or custom UI's, and some allow for the modding of gear and characters. But what Single player game allows players to create "Content" equal to an expansion pack - ie. story, events, etc.? 2) Considering all MMO's rely on a crew (skeleton or not) to put together an expansion, your statement feels like you believe all MMO's are failed. 7) Quest rewards. In a single player game, you could offer the player an obscene amount of credits to break his or her morals and it wouldnt break game balance, because who gives a ****? In an MMO balance has to be carefully weaved into the game. So you really cant have a choice like that without it being completely imagination based instead of actually making them rich. But isn't what your describing immersion breaking? If my Trooper made obscene amounts of money why would he stay in the military? You talk about quest being immersion breaking then offer this which seems counter to your point. Really ambitious project but not ambitious enough. They followed the same tired MMO formula which was completely counterproductive for the immersion they wanted to create. Which is why this game went F2P in less then a year and why I am losing interest already after just resubbing a week ago. (last time was on launch) Honestly this all seems like a rant against MMO's. Which is fine, everyone's playstyle is different. However this game WAS launched as an MMO, so to expect it to play like a single person game really doesn't make sense (despite some efforts by BW to make it feel more like a SPG). Tthis game is very different than it was at launch, especially leveling. The game was never really grindy at least till now with companion influence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Damn right. You realize the guy you quoted, posted that in 2012 right? He then took a 3 year break until today ironically.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 (edited) This thread needs to be put down before it spreads the zombie plague... and we're surrounded by shambling discussions that crave the flesh of the living... Edited June 22, 2016 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floplag Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 (edited) No. in fact it needs to go back to being a proper MMO Edited June 22, 2016 by Floplag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knorlac Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 No. in fact it needs to go back to being a proper MMO Agreed! Would I like another KOTOR style SW game? Sure. Would I want SWTOR to be that game instead of an MMO? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rklontz Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 No. in fact it needs to go back to being a proper MMO This 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrgames Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 this thread needs to be put down before it spreads the zombie plague... And we're surrounded by discussions that crave the flesh of the living... qft... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 No. in fact it needs to go back to being a proper MMO EXACTLY!!!! Great reply Floplag! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firolas Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 No. in fact it needs to go back to being a proper MMO Spot on Floplag. We can live in hope that day comes soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LyraineAlei Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Well, despite the necromancy going on, there is still the great Solo-Player/Group-Players factioning that maks the topic somewhat relevant. I honestly believe that if group content is made, and then a solo version of that same content (lesser rewards, to keep the groupers more rewarding/faster rewarding and thus incentivized or whatever that word is), this debate wouldn't be quite as... noticeable. We see it with Flashpoints- there are group versions and a solo version, and the solo version doesn't have the decoration drops as well as being 'lesser' in rewards, but it gives people who want to see the story a chance to see the story and the people running the content in groups for token earning less /ragequit inducing rants because people aren't spacebarring. KotFE is clearly a single-player game pretending to be an MMO. I admit, I like to play as a solo player and just interact with others via chat and the GTN. I do enjoy a good game of Huttball PvP as well, but that's another discussion. But I do not like that in none of the story, can it be truly a group thing as an option. As said in the KotFE story thread where BW should up the story quality, our character went from "A Hero" to "THE Outlander". I like to think my Legacy alts are doing things at the same time, that's why I have them as siblings, rivals, allies, parent/child, or married. I want to go back to "A Hero" rather than "The Hero". Sitting in spectator mode for class missions makes sense to me for at least part of it- Why would a Smuggler be interacting with General Garza as she brief the Trooper on how the plan has changed again, beyond maybe throwing in a comment that wouldn't really change the outcome? Or my Sith Inquisitor would not be taking orders from Baras because he isn't the SI's mentor... guy. But then the planetary story stuff comes along and you can do it in a group and have a chance at making relevant comments that could change the mission. SWTOR is an MMO, and it should have group content (not necessarily forced group content, I'm looking at you MAcrobinocs and Seeker H4s at the end of those Can-Be-Solo'd-Otherwise quest chains), and then group content that can be solo'd (Heroics can be, Solo Modes, Class/Planet Stories of the original games). And PvP, since people like to have that (Huttball! Or that Gree Hypergate thing!) but is by the very name, group content. I miss having the option to group for story events (not that I ever took it, but it was an option pre-SoR). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCT Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Which type of MMO is the "proper" type? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikinai Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Which type of MMO is the "proper" type? The one that attended Finishing School. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCT Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 The one that attended Finishing School. At least you'll get a decent cup of tea, then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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