Why Ranged Classes Dominate This Game and Why It needs a fix

[Zlashie]

If 10% of traffic accidents are caused by alcohol (made up figure) then 90% are caused by sober people. So we should ban driving without alcohol.

 

Numbers can be made to mean almost anything and they can certainly lie.

 

There is a difference. The form of math you pressented is called statistics.

 

In Norway we have an expression: "there are 3 kinds of lies. White Lies, Lies and Statistics".

 

Statistics can be used to create a lie but the numbers used in statistics are still not lying. If 10% of accidents are caused by alcohol you cant magically make that number different. It can bend reality and cause a false picture of the truth but that is wihin the sentence itself and how one chooses to analyze said numbers.

 

Afaik, I did not use any statistics in my thread.

What I used was simple laws of mathematics.

I also wrote that one should take my scenarios with a grain of salt as the actual fight between a ranged and a melee is different in reality compared to on paper. But the numbers still do not lie

 

Source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics

[EvilCoatrack]

Step 1: Roll a Marauder

Step 2: Spend time figuring out what you're doing (10 mins - eternity, your results will vary)

Step 3: Melt face

Step 4: die before you melt faces since someone comes into the 30m range and fires at you

Step 5: you notice that ranged classes dps you down faster than you can down them yourself

 

This is at least the problem fo this class at lvl 30-40.

 

I'm gonna have to ask you to go ahead and keep working on Step 2.

 

You get Force Camo at around 30-32. It is an incredibly important pvp cooldown and makes the difference more often than you'd think.

 

Sentinels/Marauders have issues against Gunslingers/Snipers - they're pretty much our counter class because of how Cover works. We're fine against Sorcs/Sages and Mercs/Commandos, provided it's not a 2v1 fight.

[Fidasaind]

I did not read the entire OP, sorry. But from what I skimmed it looked like he was saying that range has an advantage because root ignores resolve while other forms of CC do not. And ranged classes can still perform their jobs at range.

 

If that is the case, I agree as a sage. I am surprised that root is not part of the resolve system and am also surprised that certain snare effects can stack to create a 100% snare. I think it would be at least fair to make it so that someone on a full resolve bar would be immune to root and make it so snare effects cannot stack. Even if roots and snares did not give resolve points, at least melees would have a time when they are immune.

 

The entire resolve system needs work but I agree that in this case, melee got the short end of the stick.

[Adrenergic]

I'm a sniper. I have no ranged defense unless I'm in cover (natural cover for the best bonus) and no melee defense apart from my armor and the occasional shield probe. I can't use any of my hardest hitting abilities unless I'm in cover ---> I can't move. ----> I can only kite a melee if they don't have a gap closer. (or they suck).

 

Just a glimpse of my life in pvp. All I really want to say is that, I completely disagree that melee are gimp on CC and that the real fix is for everyone to develop their own strategies and adapt to who they are fighting. Noone should have an IWIN button. I used to complain about snipers but then I realized that I just needed to change my methods.

[SoullessCaptain]

I got about halfway down the post and ran into some clear either misinformed information or that you just don't know OP so I'll clear somethings up for you.

 

Resolve bar is affected by, Stuns, CC (such as whirlwind or concussive round), knockbacks, and pulls.

 

Also when fighting melee as a commando I'm the one rooted to the floor so making roots effect resolve actually screws over melee in my case. Also adding a second bar or 3-4 extra bars makes it so easy to game a system like you have suggested.

 

Also I'm not sure why melee need a fix a lot of the bg's I'm in about half of them have a melee class at the top of the charts. But i do understand melee classes feeling frustrated by being cc'ed or nailed to the floor...trust me no one knows your pain more than a healer heh. But again the proposed changes wouldn't help.

[Zlashie]

I got about halfway down the post and ran into some clear either misinformed information or that you just don't know OP so I'll clear somethings up for you.

 

Resolve bar is affected by, Stuns, CC (such as whirlwind or concussive round), knockbacks, and pulls.

 

Also when fighting melee as a commando I'm the one rooted to the floor so making roots effect resolve actually screws over melee in my case. Also adding a second bar or 3-4 extra bars makes it so easy to game a system like you have suggested.

 

Also I'm not sure why melee need a fix a lot of the bg's I'm in about half of them have a melee class at the top of the charts. But i do understand melee classes feeling frustrated by being cc'ed or nailed to the floor...trust me no one knows your pain more than a healer heh. But again the proposed changes wouldn't help.

 

Ok. I will look into it.

 

Nevertheless the problem is really slows and roots which is my conclussion

 

-Z

[Zlashie]

I did not read the entire OP, sorry. But from what I skimmed it looked like he was saying that range has an advantage because root ignores resolve while other forms of CC do not. And ranged classes can still perform their jobs at range.

 

If that is the case, I agree as a sage. I am surprised that root is not part of the resolve system and am also surprised that certain snare effects can stack to create a 100% snare. I think it would be at least fair to make it so that someone on a full resolve bar would be immune to root and make it so snare effects cannot stack. Even if roots and snares did not give resolve points, at least melees would have a time when they are immune.

 

The entire resolve system needs work but I agree that in this case, melee got the short end of the stick.

 

That is exacly what I am saying

[Zunayson]

any decent sorc would go "cleanse" --> knockback --> snare you, and you are unable to hit em untill you caught up, which can take up to 10sec depening on his kiting skills... makes me cry :s, same for BH's really..

 

Well usually I'm back into range. And light armored sorcs are usually too squishy to survive

HS Shiv BS LAC LAC Rifle Shot SHIV LAC

[Grahame]

The Solution

So how do we fix this? How can we bring melee back into the fight? its simple.

 

Add the following:

- Root Limit bar

- Slow Limit bar

 

I'm not convinced this would fix anything. Melee needs snares and roots to land too as they keep the ranged from simply running out of melee.

 

Why people feel this game values ranged classes more

Consider a circle. Now consider 30 small rings which are split by 1meter radius. Consider your target in the middle of this circle.

 

A melee can hit his target in 4/30 of the circles with the main abilities. He needs to use his utility in order to stay in the fight.

A Ranged can hit his target in 30/30 of the circles with the main abilities.

 

this gives the ranged a 26/30 or a 86.666% Damage Advantage to his target.

Normally other games have countered this by making melee classes hit much harder so that in a timezone of t, the amount of damage x will equal the amount of damage received f(x) so that the game itself becomes more of a skillbased trade than a melee trying to reach ranged classes.

 

 

This statement is is misleading. You can't directly correlate damage based solely on distance. Ranged have the potential to deal damage at 30m, but that doesn't mean they are. Most of the heavy hitting ranged abilities have a cast bar which limit the damage a ranged can deal to a melee before the melee reaches them. You're ratio would only be true if ranged could continuously damage a melee within 30 and the melee only has W, A, S, D and 4m attacks.

 

A true quantitative analysis of the scenario takes more, a LOT more. I don't think there's a way to do it properly without going on a class by class basis as abilities are not homogeneous enough across all "melee" and "ranged".

 

That said, I'm not going to claim there's nothing wrong. In fact, on the PvE side of things I suspect there is a problem for melee DPS. I'm not yet convinced there's a problem in PvP.

[Actua]

I'm a juggernaut and don't feel ranged is overpowered.

[Zlashie]

I'm not convinced this would fix anything. Melee needs snares and roots to land too as they keep the ranged from simply running out of melee.

 

 

 

This statement is is misleading. You can't directly correlate damage based solely on distance. Ranged have the potential to deal damage at 30m, but that doesn't mean they are. Most of the heavy hitting ranged abilities have a cast bar which limit the damage a ranged can deal to a melee before the melee reaches them. You're ratio would only be true if ranged could continuously damage a melee within 30 and the melee only has W, A, S, D and 4m attacks.

 

A true quantitative analysis of the scenario takes more, a LOT more. I don't think there's a way to do it properly without going on a class by class basis as abilities are not homogeneous enough across all "melee" and "ranged".

 

That said, I'm not going to claim there's nothing wrong. In fact, on the PvE side of things I suspect there is a problem for melee DPS. I'm not yet convinced there's a problem in PvP.

 

Normally I would agree with you. And I will agree that it is indeed next to impossible creating a 100% quantitative analysis of the scenario. As I mention in my post, the scenarios I pressent should be taken by a grain of salt.

 

However to the actual problem, I would say that I can indeed base it on range as the problem and the solution are both directed towards range.

 

Spoken in math, the unknown factor which I am trying to find, in order to balance the problem is called x and I use discussion to try and find it. The solution then states a way x can be pressent in order to solve the problem pressented.

 

As for melee dps in pve: I agree, but I dont know the truth as I dont have a damage meter to base any analysis on

 

-Z

[Xenon-se]

...No one has discussed the solution I...

You forgot:

• Interrupt: Does not limit the dps of melee / limits the dps of ranged
  

 

Interrupt does not cause resolve either, just like snares.

 

Bad Player vs Bad Player = Range is auto-win.

Good Player vs Good Player = Range is no longer auto-win.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Xenon-se

[Jimdor]

I stopped reading the post around page 7. Here's what i can gather from all the comments that are made.

 

People who die a lot to Ranged believe ranged classes are OP. People who die a lot to Melee believe melee are OP.

 

This comes down to play-style. I don't have a 50 toon yet, so i can't comment on OP / Not-OP. I can tell you that during the leveling process, it can be frustrating because you don't have all the skills/talents, which causes perceived imbalances.

 

The problem isn't ranged vs. melee. It's class imbalance. The most common thing i could read was there are some classes with far too much Utility vs classes with no Utility.

 

If you think Ranged is OP, go play a ranged class. When you get rolled by a melee, don't complain. You're the OP one, not Ranged.

 

If you think Melee is OP, go roll one. When you get rolled by Ranged, too bad. You're OP, not them.

 

I agree that all forms of CC should be on the resolve bar. This would cause CC to be used much more sparingly in Warzones. It would become more about using the CC at the right time.

 

 

I play BH and Sorc on Imp side. Got tired of being in a group full of Sorcs and BH. Rolled a Gunslinger. I am loving my gunslinger. Much more to my play-style than the others. The only thing i miss is a knockback, but i have other things to make up for the lack of one.

 

Last night, i got rolled by a marauder. Didn't stand a chance. I was mad, maybe cause i was drinking, and now i'm not. He was lvl 49, i was 16. I don't have all my skills and talents, so i can't really call OP. Unfair! OMGQQ!!

 

The only class, ranged or not, that i think is currently OP, and needs some rebalancing is the Sorc/Sage. This is pretty much agreed on throughout the forums. They have far too much utility/survivability. I think the biggest problem is that because they are so rampant in the Warzones, the perceived imbalance between Ranged/Melee is clouded. And the fact that we're not level 50.

 

I really enjoy PvP, much more than most other MMO's out there. Is there an imbalance? Yes, there is. The player base is going to take advantage of those Imbalances. Everybody forgets that balance takes time, because the player base is much more creative in their uses than the guys who designed the game.

 

yes you can cry that some things shouldn't have gotten out of beta. Go make a video game of this scope, and then complain. Unless you understand the actual process the developers have to go through to fix these things, among the other issues with the game, give them time to fix them.

 

objective opinions are subjective.

[Zunayson]

You forgot:

• Interrupt: Does not limit the dps of melee / limits the dps of ranged
  

 

Interrupt does not cause resolve either, just like snares.

 

Bad Player vs Bad Player = Range is auto-win.

Good Player vs Good Player = Range is no longer auto-win.

 

Well.. Snipers are immune to interrupts while in cover, and mercs get a shield to stop interrupts momentarily.

 

So that leaves the alleged almighty sorcs as the only ones who can be interrupt'd.

 

Personally, I don't think interrupts should affect resolve. Snares however, yes.

 

Or maybe snares on a melee only can affect resolve? So that resolve is simply a bar that fills up as you are unable to deal damage due to the enemy? In that case, interrupts may be part of the resolve system in the future. As of now, however, resolve is only dealing with CC.

[Derian]

Ranged isn't OP.

[shaidarlol]

last time i checked, knockbacks give resolve

 

the OP forgets to mention that while yes a ranged class can indeed attack in melee, their attacks are greatly diminished by either push backs by the attacks of melee or they will simply be interrupted. there is a reason why cc's exist, so a well-played/skilled ranged is able to keep the melee away and dps, while a well-played/skilled melee is able to keep the ranged class in melee.

 

the OP assumes that damage comes at the same rate, which is a fallacy to begin with. given his example of "damage frames," this assumes that the melee will do the same damage per "damage frame" as the ranged class, which isn't true. melee usually deal a higher amount of damage per "damage frame" than a ranged class could. in his example, it is probably true that the ranged got 4 "damage frames" while the melee got only 3, however, in those 3 "damage frames" the melee should have dealt at least the equal amount of damage to the ranged if not more.

[baskynn]

No one should take the OPs post seriously, even if you agree that ranged are better than melee.

 

If you want to objective and actually compare the two you need to KNOW and list their advantage and disadvatages together. The OP does nothing but list ranged advantages and none of the melee advantages.

 

I think there are a lot of players who are ignorant to the advantages melee have, they do exsist. Do they make up for the advantages ranged have? thats debateable, but if you actually want to argue one way or the other you should have all of the facts.

 

Maybe because there aren't any? I'm a Guardian tank, and the ONLY advantage I have is I can take more damage and that's because I'm tank specced.

[baskynn]

Maybe because there aren't any? I'm a Guardian tank, and the ONLY advantage I have is I can take more damage and that's because I'm tank specced.

 

 

last time i checked, knockbacks give resolve

 

the OP forgets to mention that while yes a ranged class can indeed attack in melee, their attacks are greatly diminished by either push backs by the attacks of melee or they will simply be interrupted. there is a reason why cc's exist, so a well-played/skilled ranged is able to keep the melee away and dps, while a well-played/skilled melee is able to keep the ranged class in melee.

 

the OP assumes that damage comes at the same rate, which is a fallacy to begin with. given his example of "damage frames," this assumes that the melee will do the same damage per "damage frame" as the ranged class, which isn't true. melee usually deal a higher amount of damage per "damage frame" than a ranged class could. in his example, it is probably true that the ranged got 4 "damage frames" while the melee got only 3, however, in those 3 "damage frames" the melee should have dealt at least the equal amount of damage to the ranged if not more.

 

 

sorry dude, but knockbacks don't give resolve, and it's annoying as a melee just getting thrown around like a ragdoll and not being able to do anything about it.

[Karandor]

Melee classes are generally harder to play. Marauders and assassins specifically require a ton of keybinds and can have complex rotations.

 

Once people learn how to play the class they find that it's actually quite powerful and ranged classes need that range of they get beatdown fast.

[shaidarlol]

Well.. Snipers are immune to interrupts while in cover, and mercs get a shield to stop interrupts momentarily.

 

So that leaves the alleged almighty sorcs as the only ones who can be interrupt'd.

 

Personally, I don't think interrupts should affect resolve. Snares however, yes.

 

Or maybe snares on a melee only can affect resolve? So that resolve is simply a bar that fills up as you are unable to deal damage due to the enemy? In that case, interrupts may be part of the resolve system in the future. As of now, however, resolve is only dealing with CC.

 

snipers cannot move while in cover effectively rooting themselves in place for melee.

a merc's shield that makes them immune to interrupts is a cooldown, it isn't up 100% of the time. there is a reason why it's a cooldown....

 

if snare affect resolve, the only way ranged can even survive in a reasonable fight is to kill the melee before he can even get to the ranged. sounds like fantastic balance changes.

[Zlashie]

You forgot:

Bad Player vs Bad Player = Range is auto-win.

Good Player vs Good Player = Range is no longer auto-win.

 

This isnt about skills. This is about the system itself.

 

To give you an analogy as an example: Im telling you that my i5 processor isnt as good as your i7 processor and you are teling me that I need to be better at using my PC in order for it to be equal to yours.

 

Yes, a great player can overcome such differences and make it work. I have seen good players take the worst class and make it work. But it doesnt neglect the fact that the balance issues are still there.

[iceperson]

I am curious to how many here actually spent the time to read the entire post.

 

no need to because everything we need to know we can learn from the title. you're bad, your opinion matters not. so sorry.

[shaidarlol]

sorry dude, but knockbacks don't give resolve, and it's annoying as a melee just getting thrown around like a ragdoll and not being able to do anything about it.

 

and this is why the pvp forums are so ignorant. go find a class on your server that has a knockback, duel them and find out how wrong you are.

[Mausini]

I feel that the main problem is more a general design failure regarding classes.

 

Ranged DD's need to be more squishy than melee = less HP and inferior defense abilities than melee classes but better CC.

 

Tanks = Less damage but strong CC and group utility

 

Heal = Good heal but almost no damage output and medicore CC.

 

 

Thats best practice but poorly implemented in swtor.

 

Diplomats can do great healing while doing ok damage with extremely good CC.

 

Most Tank Classes are not hard enough in pvp with medicore group support abilitys

 

Most Melee DD's do not have better defense abilities than ranged classes and the spike damage of most melee classes is very comparable to ranged DD's.

[Zlashie]

last time i checked, knockbacks give resolve

 

the OP forgets to mention that while yes a ranged class can indeed attack in melee, their attacks are greatly diminished by either push backs by the attacks of melee or they will simply be interrupted. there is a reason why cc's exist, so a well-played/skilled ranged is able to keep the melee away and dps, while a well-played/skilled melee is able to keep the ranged class in melee.

 

the OP assumes that damage comes at the same rate, which is a fallacy to begin with. given his example of "damage frames," this assumes that the melee will do the same damage per "damage frame" as the ranged class, which isn't true. melee usually deal a higher amount of damage per "damage frame" than a ranged class could. in his example, it is probably true that the ranged got 4 "damage frames" while the melee got only 3, however, in those 3 "damage frames" the melee should have dealt at least the equal amount of damage to the ranged if not more.

 

Il hand you a cookie by person when I can outdamage a gunslinger/sniper with fewer hits than them.