Faat Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I think this deserves a good discussion on whether it's considered OP and the source of the problem with Sorc / Sage non-squishyness, or if the community thinks it's alright and we should focus tanks first from now on. Tanks guarding their friendly sorc / sage and applying taunt on important ennemy DPSers are actually mitigating 55% (guard) + 30% (taunt) + other debuffs depending on tank class + spec. 85% 6 secs out of 15secs (40% of the time), 55% (60% of the time), is that too much ? I think so. Makes robe wearing character tankier than an unguarded tank. Add to that other debuffs, such as, on my vanguard, -4% damage debuff (ion pulse), -20% accuracy debuff for 18 secs on a 60 sec cooldown, and all the CC both a Sage / Sorc + tank can pull of together. If it's multiplicative, it would be something close to 70-75%. Still too much. They should cap tanking mitigation to 50%, imo. You wouldn't see unkillable lightning spammers anymore. Thoughts ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenon-se Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 So... CC the sorc and kill the tank instead? Most classes use tech or force attacks so they can't block anyway. Some classes also got lots of elemental or internal damage - or armor reduction abilities - to bypass the heavy armor as well. Operatives are perfectly viable as tank killers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximilus Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Separate the tank from the sorc ( 10m range+), cc the tank, kill the squishy sorc, it's not rocket science. I play an immortal Jugg and do guard healing sorcs and I laught hard when people try to kill any of us without a clue in the world to actually separate us. Not an OP situation but lack of intelligence and tactics on the other people. Needless to say - l2p. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cryowolf Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Use one of the literally thousands (or so I have read) of knockbacks, pushes or pulls to separate them and kill the tank. They are now even easier to recognize with glowing bright white chicken wire under their feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faat Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) Separate the tank from the sorc ( 10m range+), cc the tank, kill the squishy sorc, it's not rocket science. I play an immortal Jugg and do guard healing sorcs and I laught hard when people try to kill any of us without a clue in the world to actually separate us. Not an OP situation but lack of intelligence and tactics on the other people. Needless to say - l2p. Well, I don't think l2p is the right response, much a troll one, I'm trying to have an intelligent discussion here. I played WAR for years, where the tank mechanic is the same, and they did cap tank mitigation from guard at 50% (detaunt was also -50% damage inc but woudln't stack with guard, as well as the 30% taunt), because they figured it made healers / healed DPS impossible to kill. Tanks in WAR had a 10sec 75% mitigation buff with a long buildup morale mechanic, so it wasn't up all the time, and had a long downtime. So, most of the time, you had to fight through 50% damage mitigation from tank, and even then, groups balanced with good tanks doing their jobs was what was winning fights. And that's also what happens in SWTOR, but I'm pretty sure you can constantly mitigate 85-90% of the incoming damage on your guarded friend. And actually how do you separate 2 ppl if, guarded character follows his tank if he gets pulled / punted / CCed away ? You pull / mez both away from each other ? How is it EASY TO DO ? It's not. And also, consider all classes have CC breaker, that a tank can leap close to his friend, that everybody can use consummables to buy a few extra seconds to get in guard range. Sure, coordinated teams have the advantage that they can coordinate CC to separate them, but even then, not as easy as it is to write l2p on a forum. Edited February 10, 2012 by Faat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thuull Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Well, I don't think l2p is the right response, much a troll one, I'm trying to have an intelligent discussion here. I played WAR for years, where the tank mechanic is the same, and they did cap tank mitigation from guard at 50%, because they figured it made healers / healed DPS impossible to kill. Tanks in WAR had a 10sec 75% mitigation buff with a long buildup morale mechanic, so it wasn't up all the time. So, most of the time, you had to fight through 50% damage mitigation from tank, and even then, groups balanced with good tanks doing their jobs was what was winning fights. And that's also what happens in SWTOR, but I'm pretty sure you can constantly mitigate 85-90% of the incoming damage on your guarded friend. And actually how do you separate 2 ppl if, guarded character follows his tank if he gets pulled / punted / CCed away ? You pull / mez both away from each other ? How is it EASY TO DO ? It's not. And also, consider all classes have CC breaker, that a tank can leap close to his friend, that everybody can use consummables to buy a few extra seconds to get in guard range. Sure, coordinated teams have the advantage that they can coordinate CC to separate them, but even then, not as easy as it is to write l2p on a forum. An intelligent discussion usually involves factoring in the intelligent discourse you receive into your conversation...not dismissing it because it doesn't support the predetermined solution that you're looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xaven_ Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 An intelligent discussion usually involves factoring in the intelligent discourse you receive into your conversation...not dismissing it because it doesn't support the predetermined solution that you're looking for. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrias Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Guard isn't mitigation though, it's damage sharing. The 50% damage that the sorc is being guarded for is going to the person Guarding instead. But yea. Intelligent use of CC/Knockbacks etc does negate most of the issue with Healer + Tank pairings. At least, it has in my experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faat Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) An intelligent discussion usually involves factoring in the intelligent discourse you receive into your conversation...not dismissing it because it doesn't support the predetermined solution that you're looking for. I just completely destroyed you l2p comment. How is it EASY to separate a tank from his guarded friend ? Both have to have CC breaker on cooldown, both have to have consummables on cooldown, both have to have their CC on cooldown, tank have to have his leap on cooldown or no melee on his target, etc. You, explain me how it is EASY, and that only baddies can't pull it of. Simple. l2p dosn't cut it. I guess people don't want to see their tank + Sorc OPness nerfed. Don't worry, we're due. They nerfed the mechanic in WAR, I doubt this will remain like that in SWTOR. Tank bright wizards anyone ? l2p spammed all over the place on forums. Edited February 10, 2012 by Faat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jellosandwich Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 An intelligent discussion usually involves factoring in the intelligent discourse you receive into your conversation...not dismissing it because it doesn't support the predetermined solution that you're looking for. Teehee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cryowolf Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 You refer to coordination among teammates so what situation exactly are you referring to? Are you talking about a pug group vs premade with tank/healer combo? The pug is screwed. We all know this. The answer is to get a premade of your own. Coordination to fight coordination. Personally I think premades should only be squared off against other premades, but that is off topic. In a pug vs pug with tank/healer combo I have seen and participated in groups that can separate them. If your pugmates are not willing to read ops chat and work together, that is the luck of the draw. If it was easy to defeat a guard combo there would be no point to guarding in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faat Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 Teehee So you baddies think -89% damage on my guarded friend is alright. No wonder why this game's PvP is terrible. Community is just *********** terrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bejita Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 change guard to a 25%/75% split (tank takes 25% damage) guard without healer has a much easier time guarding general targets, and the healer is no longer super god mode Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faat Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 You refer to coordination among teammates so what situation exactly are you referring to? Are you talking about a pug group vs premade with tank/healer combo? The pug is screwed. We all know this. The answer is to get a premade of your own. Coordination to fight coordination. Personally I think premades should only be squared off against other premades, but that is off topic. In a pug vs pug with tank/healer combo I have seen and participated in groups that can separate them. If your pugmates are not willing to read ops chat and work together, that is the luck of the draw. If it was easy to defeat a guard combo there would be no point to guarding in the first place. Dude, I PuG most of the time, and a tank swapping guard around and mitigating damage on their friends WINS games. DPS heum, not really, without guard and heals, they die all over the place. Heals heum, again, without guard they get focused, interrupted, and die in less than 10 secs. Put them both with a tank baby sitting them and they survive and WIN. Coordinated vs coordinated... Still *********** hard to separate a tank from hi guarded ally. Explain to me how it is easy ? kill the tank ? LAWL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuNieK Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Tanking in pvp is one of the things i LOVED in warhammer. WoW sucked at this field big time. Please dont try to propagate Blizzard aproach for tanks in pvp, cause they basically dont allow tanks being usable in pvp and abilities like taunt were useless there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faat Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) Tanking in pvp is one of the things i LOVED in warhammer. WoW sucked at this field big time. Please dont try to propagate Blizzard aproach for tanks in pvp, cause they basically dont allow tanks being usable in pvp and abilities like taunt were useless there. i agree that's a lot of fun and makes tank useful in PvP, but the mitigation they provide right now is too high imo. It adds up close to 90% if it's additive, 75% if it's multiplicative. Even 75% for 6 secs out of 15 (40% uptime), is too much. And I play a tank, I played one in WAR, and I think 75% or 90% is too powerful. I actually believe the uproar about Sorc / sage being unkilable CC / DPS machines is in part due to the FACT that they stay alive because they have a tank hugging their nuts. I know, that's what I do to WIN warzones. I *********** die before those sages because they're not healing, but that's another topic (when i PuG). You trolls explain to me how it is NOT. Ohh yeah, easy to separate a tank from his ally, when my premade fights a PuG and all their ohh **** buttons on cooldown. Edited February 10, 2012 by Faat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryotknife Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) kill the tank then. he will be 5x squishier than the guarded/taunted sorc. his taunt wont mitigate damage done to him, nor will his guard help him (it will actually help kill him). in fact, by attacking the tank you have eliminated over half of his utility. why should it stay in? because for pts it is literally all they bring to the table, they have no other abilities. not to mention all of those gaurds and taunts are easily negated by a plethora of abilities/cc, or even by just targeting the tank renders all of those abilities useless. Edited February 10, 2012 by Ryotknife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cryowolf Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 If you read my whole post I didn't say it was easy. If it was easy there would be no point to guarding in the first place. You obviously have your own opinion which will not be swayed and this is in no way an intelligent "discussion". An intelligent discussion usually involves factoring in the intelligent discourse you receive into your conversation...not dismissing it because it doesn't support the predetermined solution that you're looking for. I should have stopped responding after Thuull, since he was spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Philar Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Tank + Sorcerer combo is a Strategic Advantage. You need to counter it with a Tactical Advantage (i.e. teamwork, as in, timing control and interrupts while bursting the tank down). That is how PvP is supposed to operate. Obviously, PUGs are going to lack that Tactical Advantage because they are not going to cooperate in most cases. That is why they lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Militum Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Select your targets with a main assist and everyone concentrates on that target. Teamwork wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryptorchid Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Simple way to beat Tank/Healer combos: DoT the Tank, Focus fire and interrupt the Healer. Having DoTs rolling on the tank will make their Taunts not work on you, and the damage they get from the DoTs and guarded amounts you don on the Healer will put them in a hole really fast. This forces the Healer to decide if they save the Tank or themselves, and when a Healer has to heal two different targets, you have put them in a big hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faat Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 kill the tank then. he will be 5x squishier than the guarded/taunted sorc. his taunt wont mitigate damage done to him, nor will his guard help him (it will actually help kill him). in fact, by attacking the tank you have eliminated over half of his utility. That's right. That's the way to deal with a tank + whatever combo, but what if, a tank then puts guard on the focused tank ? Good PvP tanks always watch healthbars and have good situationnal awareness, swapping guard on an ally in danger is their primary focus. If you fight great tanks, that's basically what imbalances the fights the most because they can make an ally an unkillable machine. That's the topic. Is 75% - 90% too much ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracyula Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 The purpose of taunt is to make enemies attack the tank. If the current version of taunt doesn't force you to attack the tank, it is not strong enough. Personally, I think it is strong enough. You need to disable the healer and kill the tank first to succeed. Remember, in PVP, tanks are only slightly more durable than anyone else. Working as intended. D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verfolne Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Guard and taunt doesnt stack the way you seem to think. First, your damage is reduced by 30% from taunt and then 50% of your now reduced damage is transferred by guard, giving a net effect of 1 - 0.7*0.5 = 0.65. Stacked they reduce damage by 65%, not 85%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Philar Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 That's right. That's the way to deal with a tank + whatever combo, but what if, a tank then puts guard on the focused tank ? Good PvP tanks always watch healthbars and have good situationnal awareness, swapping guard on an ally in danger is their primary focus. If you fight great tanks, that's basically what imbalances the fights the most because they can make an ally an unkillable machine. That's the topic. Is 75% - 90% too much ? In that case you simply need to call in an orbital strike to nuke the planet. It's the only way to be sure. Adding a 3rd tank into the argument is amatuer hour. If you want to talk 3v3 then we can talk 3v3, but you need to let people know that you are changing the debate on the fly to make your position look better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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