Same gender relationships clarifications?

[Uluain]

I'm also a bit concerned by the idea that this is only going to come in a proper expansion, i.e. we'll need to pay extra if we want to play gay characters.

I rather worry about that myself, but at this point I would not put it past them.

 

On a tangental note, I have been trying to figure out why this sort of inclusiveness is something that to me seems a total no-brainer in this day and age, and I think it is a matter of where I am coming from, game-wise, to MMORPGs, which is from roleplaying.

 

Twenty years ago, the giant in the tabletop roleplaying game field was an outfit out of Stone Mountain, Georgia called White Wolf Game Studios. Their exploration of urban fantasy, while presaged by games like Shadowrun, charted new ground for story-driven roleplay.

 

And White Wolf never batted an eye at same-gender attraction, affection or romance. It was by no means the theme of any of their games, but was present throughout as simply the way some people are. It was not politicized or made a deal of. It was simply in there as part of the mix of amazingly realized non-player characters, situations and societies.

 

I was pleased to see this, as it affirmed my character as part of the game setting, rather than as some kind of abberation. This was as far back as the early 1990s. So to not see it simply a part of a story-driven game in 2012 is, in a word, disheartening.

 

But I realize most players come to the MMO from other video games, which by and large have ducked the issue and silently ducked the heat for doing so. So expectations plainly differ.

 

Nonetheless, to hear that even deep background inclusiveness passes for daringly progressive from a video game studio is, to me, mind-boggling. It's the Twenty-First Century. Why are these games stuck in 1960? I don't get it.

[sparklecat]

Technically this thread is about how we hope these features will be implemented, but I was thinking it might be interesting to turn the question around. Given that we have at least an assurance that the feature will become available someday, what is the -worst- way they could implement it? That is, what do we hope they won't do when adding this content?

 

For me, poor design decisions for SGRAs would be:

 

- Not providing SGRA options for current companions

- Requiring level 50 before meeting SGRA companions

- Only adding one SGRA companion (or even just one of either gender) for each faction

- Requiring a purchase of an expansion

- Requiring an opt-in ("toggle") for the content

 

Ooh, good question. I'll second all of what you said, and add in that I don't want to see yet another iteration of the "is this gay thing too weird for you?" discussion between my character and the NPC. If it was too weird for me, I wouldn't have hit the flirt option. If it's too weird for them, they wouldn't be responding positively. I don't know why these keep showing up in Bioware games (maybe to make sure you didn't initiate the romance accidentally?), but I'd prefer a way to do whatever it is you're aiming at that's a little less... annoying, in terms of the implications.

[kraidy]

I rather worry about that myself, but at this point I would not put it past them.

 

On a tangental note, I have been trying to figure out why this sort of inclusiveness is something that to me seems a total no-brainer in this day and age, and I think it is a matter of where I am coming from, game-wise, to MMORPGs, which is from roleplaying.

 

Twenty years ago, the giant in the tabletop roleplaying game field was an outfit out of Stone Mountain, Georgia called White Wolf Game Studios. Their exploration of urban fantasy, while presaged by games like Shadowrun, charted new ground for story-driven roleplay.

 

And White Wolf never batted an eye at same-gender attraction, affection or romance. It was by no means the theme of any of their games, but was present throughout as simply the way some people are. It was not politicized or made a deal of. It was simply in there as part of the mix of amazingly realized non-player characters, situations and societies.

 

I was pleased to see this, as it affirmed my character as part of the game setting, rather than as some kind of abberation. This was as far back as the early 1990s. So to not see it simply a part of a story-driven game in 2012 is, in a word, disheartening.

 

But I realize most players come to the MMO from other video games, which by and large have ducked the issue and silently ducked the heat for doing so. So expectations plainly differ.

 

Nonetheless, to hear that even deep background inclusiveness passes for daringly progressive from a video game studio is, to me, mind-boggling. It's the Twenty-First Century. Why are these games stuck in 1960? I don't get it.

Best post so far.

[Uluain]

Technically this thread is about how we hope these features will be implemented, but I was thinking it might be interesting to turn the question around. Given that we have at least an assurance that the feature will become available someday, what is the -worst- way they could implement it? That is, what do we hope they won't do when adding this content?

Good question. One I have in my pessimistic moments been dwelling on. Here is what I think are all reasonably outcomes that would disappoint me:

 

• Restricting same-gender content to companion NPC romance only.
   
  
• Not adding any SGR until new companions are introduced.
   
  
• SGRs therefore only encountered after level 50.
   
  
• Restricting SGR to two or three companions per faction, so that not all genders on all classes have access. For example, giving the M/M SGR to Trooper, and the F/F SGRs to Smuggler and Knights, or say M/M to Agent, F/F to Bounty Hunter and Warrior.
   
  
• Including a preponderance of F/F same-gender content, with minimal M/M options.
   
  
• Only releasing SGRs as part of a $50 game expansion, two or three years from now.
   
  
• Once those few SGRs are added, no future content ever addresses same-gender affection again.
   
  
• BioWare does all of the above, and still has a reputation as a progressive, inclusive game studio.
  

The less they tell us, the more worried I become that this is just what we'll see.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Uluain

[Teraphin]

today I have ended my subscription, SGR is not necessarily the reason though I would like to see it in the game. I chose to end it because This was one of the most asked about things in the Q&A thread but was not even mentioned by the developers. They request questions but only chose to answer ones that promoted their 1.2 patch. I will return to paying for the game when they are willing to answer the communities questions, if I haven't found a community more open with the people that subscribe to them. I have really enjoyed Bioware and their games, and find their lack of forthcoming in this one disappointing.

 

I do hope for the best and wish you all luck.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Teraphin

[Nozybidaj]

today I have ended my subscription, SGR is not necessarily the reason though I would like to see it in the game. I chose to end it because This was one of the most asked about things in the Q&A thread but was not even mentioned by the developers.

 

Their avoidance of the question was pretty transparent, I agree. Speaks volumes about how seriously they take this issue.

[Uluain]

On a side note, over its current 60 pages, this weeks Developer Q&A thread has had thirty-seven posts requesting further information on same-gender content - thirty-eight if you count one that added an enquiry regarding same-gender [Flirt] options to a question about more flirts available to female players. So we can be dead certain that the Dev Team knows full well that we are waiting to hear more.

 

For those who are following this issue who have not yet posted to the thread, I encourage you to add your voice to those asking. And keep asking if (dare I say when?) they pass over this question next week as well.

[SithtobeJedi]

Haven't they answered the question last year about them including it into the game?

 

More or less it seems people want more and are asking "I know we'll get companions that can go in that direction but how about my current companions and just an option altogether."

 

That will all probably be released in the same content patch, you're basically asking them to change the scripts of the entire game for certain situations which would take a lot of time unless you wanted them to just record a female saying it and then have the NPC give the same response they'd give to a male. But you probably wouldn't want that as you'd want it to be authentic.

 

As closely as they watch all these threads I'm guessing they are waiting to give an official statement on it and their reaction will probably be in the form of a statement since this seems an important and most talked about issue.

 

So all I can say to all that is, be patient. Even so at this point if they answered the question you'd want more than a 2 line response.

[Uluain]

Haven't they answered the question last year about them including it into the game?

They issued a very guarded statement, as follows:

 

Due to the design constraints of a fully voiced MMO of this scale and size, many choices had to be made as to the launch and post-launch feature set. Same gender romances with companion characters in Star Wars: The Old Republic will be a post-launch feature. Because The Old Republic is an MMO, the game will live on through content expansions which allow us to include content and features that could not be included at launch, including the addition of more companion characters who will have additional romance options.

 

This is all that has been said since last September, save for Community Director Stephen Reid's reply of "No further comment" in answer to a request for clarification in an interview.

 

Before the game launched, I would have viewed this as a positive step. This was before I discovered how deeply bedded in side content, how difficult to access, companion character romance content is. Likewise, I would not have known how very prevalent casual [Flirt] options and implied intimacy between player characters and NPCs of the opposite gender are.

 

Now that players are able to assess the precisely limited scope of Mr. Reid's comment in comparison with the content as experienced in actual play, I personally feel some further elaboration on BioWare's plans for same-gender inclusion is called for.

 

Those who created and sustain this thread feel likewise.

 

At this point, lack of information looks very much like dismissing these concerns and an unwillingness to share the design team's direction for this content. Without that information, we do not know what sort of feedback would be contructive or useful.

 

We are doing our best to keep what we actually want to see out here where it can be seen. Without acknowlegement from BioWare in any form, however, our faith in the company's actual commitment to inclusiveness is swiftly fading.

 

To offer the announced content in the form of a carefully limited (companion character romances) compromise (as post-launch content at some indeterminate future date) and nothing else in regards to these concerns does not look good.

 

BioWare has managed to alienate those most strongly opposed to any same-gender content by announcing its intentions to include it at all.

 

Simultaneously, BioWare has told a not inconsiderable portion of its "diverse and tolerant" community that they are not worth full inclusion, that such marginal recognition as they will receive will come at the convenience of the game designers when they feel like it.

 

To me, this looks like a decision reached by commitee. A bad decision reached by committee. But someone at BioWare Austin had to have put a stamp of approval on this. So to those points I have already expressed a wish to have clarified, I add one more:

 

I want to know who that person was and why he still has a job.

[Aerylinn]

First, I just want to say that thus far I have very much enjoyed this game.

 

That said, I agree with everything Uluain has said in this thread. I have hit a wall at level 50 on my main character and would like to play an alt. Currently I am stuck waiting to see if this content comes anytime soon as I really want to be able to at the very least pursue a relationship with the appropriate gendered npcs. Or I can play an alt and never talk to my companions with the hope that they add the ability for my female jk to romance Kira down the line.

Sadly, it seems like if we get the option at all, it is going to a year from now when they release an expansion we will have to pay another $50 for. From any other gaming studio this would be extremely disappointing to say the least, but from Bioware? I'm not even sure what to say to them.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Aerylinn

[ProfessorCaprion]

On a side note, over its current 60 pages, this weeks Developer Q&A thread has had thirty-seven posts requesting further information on same-gender content - thirty-eight if you count one that added an enquiry regarding same-gender [Flirt] options to a question about more flirts available to female players. So we can be dead certain that the Dev Team knows full well that we are waiting to hear more.

 

For those who are following this issue who have not yet posted to the thread, I encourage you to add your voice to those asking. And keep asking if (dare I say when?) they pass over this question next week as well.

 

Make that thirty-nine, now!

 

I'm mostly lurking on the forums, but I'm following this one issue very closely. Being as I don't PVP or do Operations, this is actually pretty important in my book.

 

Thus, I've added my question to the mix. Hopefully they can't ignore us forever, but even I am beginning to feel a little pessimistic...

[kraidy]

Just give me Temple Bioware and I will be happy.

[Uluain]

Thanks, Prof.

 

Yes, I am primarily playing for the story and roleplay. Most of the proposed new content actually offers me very little. Whoop de doo. Worse than unsupported, my roleplay options are actively obstructed.

 

I don't want to be railroaded, as I am by the game as offered as present, into playing Captain Scoundrel, the womanizing heterosexual smuggler. I want to play Kypp "Flyboy" Destin, first mate on the free-trader Antic Wind, the way he would choose to face the world. Regardless of what that may mean specifically, having my character's sexual orientation defined by the story for me (male Smugglers cannot progress their class story and decline to [Flirt] with female NPCs without incurring an in-game penalty) is unsatisfactory.

 

That situation is tangental to companion romance arcs, which it why it was budded off into its own thread at the suggestion of Community Support. But it does underline how little the game design actually offers in possibilities beyond PvE and PvP, which for a game that claims to wish to offer something for everyone is a real shame.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Uluain

[kraidy]

Thanks, Prof.

 

Yes, I am primarily playing for the story and roleplay. Most of the proposed new content actually offers me very little. Whoop de doo. Worse than unsupported, my roleplay options are actively obstructed.

 

I don't want to be railroaded, as I am by the game as offered as present, into playing Captain Scoundrel, the womanizing heterosexual smuggler. I want to play Kypp "Flyboy" Destin, first mate on the free-trader Antic Wind, the way he would choose to face the world. Regardless of what that may mean specifically, having my character's sexual orientation defined by the story for me (male Smugglers cannot progress their class story and decline to [Flirt] with female NPCs without incurring an in-game penalty) is unsatisfactory.

 

That situation is tangental to companion romance arcs, which it why it was budded off into its own thread at the suggestion of Community Support. But it does underline how little the game design actually offers in possibilities beyond PvE and PvP, which for a game that claims to wish to offer something for everyone is a real shame.

This is the big reason why I refuse to play a smuggler.

[MusedMoose]

At this point, lack of information looks very much like dismissing these concerns and an unwillingness to share the design team's direction for this content. Without that information, we do not know what sort of feedback would be contructive or useful.

 

We are doing our best to keep what we actually want to see out here where it can be seen. Without acknowlegement from BioWare in any form, however, our faith in the company's actual commitment to inclusiveness is swiftly fading.

 

To offer the announced content in the form of a carefully limited (companion character romances) compromise (as post-launch content at some indeterminate future date) and nothing else in regards to these concerns does not look good.

With all respect to everyone involved, it really makes me sad to see this line of thought proliferating in this thread. I know it's not easy to hold on hope when we only get silence. I know that it's very easy to make all kinds of assumptions about the reasons for that silence. I can guess it would feel good to vent the frustration that comes with the silence.

 

However.

 

Forgive me for getting all Vulcan on a Star Wars forum, but logically, there is absolutely no reason to assume that BioWare has changed their position on this matter. They have said that SGRs will be in; that quote from the recent podcast shows their position has not changed. To assign any meaning to their silence about it serves no purpose. To claim that the silence means they won't be implementing SGRs is quite simply wrong.

 

I won't speak for anyone else, but until BioWare gives me a solid, undeniable reason to doubt their word on this, I will continue to expect this feature and await news. Am I disappointed that we've heard nothing? Oh, hell yes. Seeing those 15 questions on Friday and not getting an answer was an incredible letdown.

 

But as I said in the last thread, making assumptions and drawing conclusions with nothing to base them on serves no point at all. I know it's hard to stay positive, but being negative about it won't do a damn bit of good.

 

Sorry for the ramble, but it just makes me sad to see people get so disheartened about this when there's no reason to. That's all.

[Guian]

I'm sorry folks but all this wringing of the hands over this feature and continually griping about it being added, should take a back seat for now. Main concerns are addressing the bugs that riddle this game, and the inclusion of items that should have been in at the game's start (better ui, guild stuff, etc).

 

I'm certain once they finish all the basics that any MMO should have at launch, then they will get around to adding the "chrome" to address the issues you have stated in this thread.

[StSathar]

I'm sorry folks but all this wringing of the hands over this feature and continually griping about it being added, should take a back seat for now. Main concerns are addressing the bugs that riddle this game, and the inclusion of items that should have been in at the game's start (better ui, guild stuff, etc).

 

Absolutely! For example, the Courting gifts I keep giving my companions don't seem to be working right at all.

[Eldartank]

I just hope they make it so that you don't HAVE to make your character romantically interested/involved with any companions or npc's if you don't want to. Making such things an option for roleplaying purposes is fine, but there should be no in-game penalty of any kind if you decide never to flirt with any npc's or companions.

[Uluain]

I want at this point to offer a recap of what we actually have heard from BioWare in regards to same gender content.

 

Foremost is the policy statement, originally made by current SWTOR Online Community Director Stephen Reid on Sept. 13, 2011. This statement has become the stock copy & paste response which Community Support is directed to give in reply to questions on same-gender content in game:

 

"Due to the design constraints of a fully voiced MMO of this scale and size, many choices had to be made as to the launch and post-launch feature set. Same gender romances with companion characters in Star Wars: The Old Republic will be a post-launch feature. Because The Old Republic is an MMO, the game will live on through content expansions which allow us to include content and features that could not be included at launch, including the addition of more companion characters who will have additional romance options."

At the time, Mr. Reid apparently made some additional informal comments which I think it only fair to include in order to place this policy statement in context:

 

"First of all, this is definitely not an audience that consists of a 'couple of people' and we're aware of that. We take this decision very seriously.

 

"Second, it's very important to realize that this is just one of many, many content additions that will be going into the game post launch. The vast majority of our content will be of interest to the vast majority of our potential audience.

 

"However, one of the amazing things about MMOs is that over time we can get to add things that are exciting and interesting to smaller audiences. Normally, that's not something that's addressed too far ahead of time. In this case, we felt the addition was warranted and should be addressed early.

 

"There will be plenty of content for all to play and enjoy."

and

 

"We can't guarantee that a character you play at launch would have romance options 'unlocked' for an existing companion. It's something that will be taken into consideration when making design decisions. Not a promise it'll happen, but we'll take that feedback and relay it through to design.

 

"We fully intend to do justice to the story in our storylines. [biggrin]

 

"As you may have heard, we take story very seriously - this included.

 

"Lastly for those of you who seem concerned that you will be 'tricked' into any romance arc in the game - all romance choices are clearly marked. You will be aware you're making those choices as you make them."

The upside:

 

BioWare seems to feel it has solidly committed to including this content, and acknowleged that those who look forward to this are not an insignificant group, and that the matter is deserving of serious consideration.

 

Mr. Reid has promised that player suggestions will be brought to the attention of the design team, at least to some extent.

 

It is possible that same-gender content may become available for existing companions. Although it is not possible to promise this at this point in time, the idea is in fact being considered.

 

It is felt that if such same-gender content is plainly marked as romance content, this suffices to assure that no one is "tricked into" playing content they do not desire to see.

 

Community Representatives responsible for moderating these forums and enforcing posting guidelines have helped us keep our discussion centralized in one thread and kept us on-topic, pruning inflammatory or digressive posts on both sides of the argument Community Support wish us to be able to have this discussion.

 

The downside:

 

This announcement was being made "early" about the inclusion of same-gender content, "too far ahead of time". This implies that it is unrealistic to expect to see same-gender content in game any time soon.

 

BioWare feels it is much more important to add content that is expected to appeal to a "vast majority" of potential players. This is seen as fring content, offered to appeal only to a "smaller audience". So this content is "important" but not that important.

 

BioWare has only addressed same-gender content within the rather limited context of companion character romance. No mention is made at any point regarding same-gender content in more open game content encountered through play such as the oft-mentioned [Flirt] options.

 

Asked to clarify upon these points since last September, Mr. Reid's only reply has been "No further comment."

 

At least as of as the initial Developer Q&A thread and blog post, the design team has declined to reply to any requests for information regarding same-gender content regardless of the number of people requesting such clarification.

 

At present, there has been no official response from the Development Team to either of the existing threads discussing same-gender content, which together have generated over 1,500 replies over the past twenty-six days.

 

How does this feel to you, on balance? Are there points I have failed to consider here, upside or downside? How do we proceed, in order to assure we are not left in limbo indefinitely? Some things to think about.

[Kioma]

I just hope they make it so that you don't HAVE to make your character romantically interested/involved with any companions or npc's if you don't want to. Making such things an option for roleplaying purposes is fine, but there should be no in-game penalty of any kind if you decide never to flirt with any npc's or companions.

 

There isn't, is there? I understand there's something of a 'bonus' in marrying a companion (gifts mailed to you or something) but not getting a bonus isn't the same as getting a penalty.

 

My Sentinel is single, because she's not interested in Doc. I don't believe she's been penalised for it, with the exception of wanting to pursue a relationship with Kira and not being able to (from an in-character perspective she assumes Kira's not interested but will be happily surprised if she turns out to be wrong). I've a rarely played alt who's not interested in anyone at all - he's not asexual, precisely, he just doesn't care about anything but his own advancement. I don't think he's been limited by my in-character decision.

 

I mean, am I wrong? Is there some in-built penalty for not flirting that I'm not seeing?

[Uluain]

I'm sorry folks but all this wringing of the hands over this feature and continually griping about it being added, should take a back seat for now. Main concerns are addressing the bugs that riddle this game, and the inclusion of items that should have been in at the game's start (better ui, guild stuff, etc).

 

I'm certain once they finish all the basics that any MMO should have at launch, then they will get around to adding the "chrome" to address the issues you have stated in this thread.

Bug fixes already are top priority. BioWare has said so very clearly. No one here has suggested otherwise. We all agree that fixes to existing content are Job One.

 

However, debugging and patching is handled by an entirely different group of people from those responsible for developing new content. Working on the first in no way precludes talking about the other.

 

No one is saying "put this in now". We have said, "this really ought to have been in at launch", but it isn't and those are the breaks.

 

We are asking for some sort of dialogue with the design team as to what is helpful or constructive feedback, as well as a rough idea when we should reasonably expect to see this make it into the game.

 

This really is of great concern to some players. Please do not belittle that concern or suggest it is unworthy of consideration. I have not come into your threads to suggest my issues matter more. Kindly return the courtesy.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Uluain

[Eldartank]

There isn't, is there? I understand there's something of a 'bonus' in marrying a companion (gifts mailed to you or something) but not getting a bonus isn't the same as getting a penalty.

 

My Sentinel is single, because she's not interested in Doc. I don't believe she's been penalised for it, with the exception of wanting to pursue a relationship with Kira and not being able to (from an in-character perspective she assumes Kira's not interested but will be happily surprised if she turns out to be wrong). I've a rarely played alt who's not interested in anyone at all - he's not asexual, precisely, he just doesn't care about anything but his own advancement. I don't think he's been limited by my in-character decision.

 

I mean, am I wrong? Is there some in-built penalty for not flirting that I'm not seeing?

 

I saw an earlier post that seemed to imply that the smuggler gets some kind of penalties if he doesn't get romantically involved with any of his companions. I hope that isn't actually the case. I have a smuggler, and I'm playing him as simply being more interested in self advancement and profit rather than romance.

[Uluain]

I mean, am I wrong? Is there some in-built penalty for not flirting that I'm not seeing?

There are some points during the story progression for male Smuggler where you cannot choose a non-[Flirt] response toward a female NPC without a loss of affection with Corso Riggs, the primary companion character for smugglers.

 

Affection directly affects the efficiency and effectiveness of companions at completing Crew Skill assignments. For a Slicer, then, decreased companion affection results in less rewarding returns on Slicing missions, themselves less likely to succeed.

 

So while it is indirect, not flirting can cost some characters in-game money.

 

Edit - now, to be fair, in the particular instance where I noticed this, one of the non-flirt options offers an increase in Bowdaar's affection much greater than the loss from Corso's. However, at that point in your story, Bowdaar is a brand new companion. Even with the attendant gain in affection with that companion, he is nowhere near as proficient at Crew Skill tasks than the companion with whom you have been building affection since level 8 or 9. That is, the gain does not offset the loss.

 

Also to be fair, I have no idea whether accepting the [Flirt] offered increases, decreases or has no impact upon companion affection in any way. It never occurred to me to check. I play my Smuggler true to his character, and he would not have flirted in that situation even if he did dig chicks, which he doesn't.

 

So for all I know, accepting the [Flirt] may have had a more detrimental effect. I don't know one way or the other. I do know there was no way not to flirt without a penalty.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Uluain

[Kioma]

Flirting with a companion isn't required to get their affection up, of course, but I see your point on that.

 

As for the Corso-doesn't-like-you-not-flirting matter, well. That DOES kind of suck but if that's what his character's like then I guess that's just how it is. Sure it's a bit sucky but in my mind that's less anti-same-sex and more anti-unflirty. I'd take the affection drop and then sling him a Weapon gift.

[THorsblood]

i hope we get SS on our current NPCs.

 

P.S. how do you put spoiler tags on? pro healer, good tank, noob forum user:jawa_redface: