Will Bioware really change Sentinels mechanics?

[RAVM]

Just curious, for the people who like it as is, are you using a some kind of gaming mouse with a bunch of extra buttons? I'm finding it difficult to use keyboard mappings with all the abilities that need to be spammed.

[strattjw]

Sentinel is not an iconic class. There is no Jedi in any of the movies that specialized in dual wielding lightsabers. The only time you see it happen is when Anikan fights Dooku and that is only because Obi Wan falls and Anikan picks up his saber. Guardian is an icon class, Sentinel is not.

 

Regardless of that I wouldn't expect to see the mechanics of any class significantly changed outside of an expansion.

 

Anyway, they are not that hard of a class to play. Just need to manage cooldowns and come 1.1.4 that will be made 100 times easier to do.

[Talorra]

Just curious, for the people who like it as is, are you using a some kind of gaming mouse with a bunch of extra buttons? I'm finding it difficult to use keyboard mappings with all the abilities that need to be spammed.

 

Logitech G700. I have seven of its buttons mapped with shift and control modifiers so, 14 or 15 total. Some of those are for defensive cooldowns, medpacks and adrenals though, not just attack abilities.

 

And yeah, Sentinel is not at all an "iconic" class. It was created by BW for KoToR, and they're not even the same thing from that game to this one. Then the Sentinel became the "Watchman" in KoToR2... it's wherever the devs want the class to be for each title.

[Tedroni]

Sentinel is not an iconic class. There is no Jedi in any of the movies that specialized in dual wielding lightsabers. The only time you see it happen is when Anikan fights Dooku and that is only because Obi Wan falls and Anikan picks up his saber. Guardian is an icon class, Sentinel is not.

 

'cause we saw so many Jedi in heavy armor in the two trilogies...? The second Obi force-threw his lightsaber to Ani it *became* iconic. Besides, Dual-Wield melee is iconic of fantasy MMOs. There's no point saying the class is contrived or not iconic because it's in the game for at least two different, wholly-legitimate reasons.

 

Regardless of that I wouldn't expect to see the mechanics of any class significantly changed outside of an expansion.

 

Agreed. Mechanics re-working means a big re-design from the ground up. Tweeking is one thing, but changing the mechanics of the class is different altogether.

 

Anyway, they are not that hard of a class to play. Just need to manage cooldowns and come 1.1.4 that will be made 100 times easier to do.

 

Oh, yes they are. You need to manage your Universal Cooldown, your Non-Universal Cooldowns, your Focus, your Target Priority, your Positioning, your Centering, your Zen ticks, your Transcendance active timer, your Inspiration active timer, your Burn ticks, your Form Stacks and Bonuses, and the list goes on and on. Most classes in this game get to stop at Target Priority. Back in LotRO my Captain, Champion, Lore Master, and Warden all got to stop at Positioning and that worked quite well for me.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Tedroni

[Bigdorks]

I really hope they dont dumb it down. I dont see what is so difficult it to begin with

Using every ability available is awesome in my opinion. Why is there so much call to make every class a 1 button wonder?!?!? WHY!?!!

[Tedroni]

I really hope they dont dumb it down. I dont see what is so difficult it to begin with

Using every ability available is awesome in my opinion. Why is there so much call to make every class a 1 button wonder?!?!? WHY!?!!

 

Ok. How about a fifteen-button class instead of a thirty-six button class? Would that be an acceptable compromise?

[Telgath]

Just curious, for the people who like it as is, are you using a some kind of gaming mouse with a bunch of extra buttons? I'm finding it difficult to use keyboard mappings with all the abilities that need to be spammed.

 

I use a G700 mouse and a G15 keyboard. I could not play a watchman decently without them. I would have to play a DPS Commando.

[Morticoccus]

I just got to 22 on my Watchman spec alt, so far I don't see what all the fuss is about. I mean, you do a lot of nice armor ignoring sustained DPS with overload saber and cauterize, you have zealous strike to build focus, and for tough enemies you can get permacrits for 6 ticks and heal a crapload of damage with zen.

 

The defensive CDs are a bit annoying but they do reduce damage by a lot, you just have to remember to trigger them.

 

I guess my main problem in my current hotkey setup is that I can't find a good button to bind riposte to, so I generally waste the reduction to rebuke CD.

 

As for the whole "iconic" thing, I picked watchman because I recently read through large parts of the expanded universe material and wanted to feel like a ****** =p

 

My next alt will probably be a sith marauder.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Morticoccus

[Lowkeii]

Loving my sent, hope they don't change the class drastically. I much prefer combat to watchman so a buff to combat to bring it on par with watchman would be awesome though ( it wouldn't even need a huge honestly)

[Vasinar]

I also hope they don't change the class. I've played a bounty hunter and sith sorc to mid 30s and they were just so easy and boring I was on the verge of already cancelling my account.

 

I decided I'll go ahead and try a republic character before cancelling and rolled a sentinel. It's now level 20 and I'm loving it. It's nice to actually have to pay attention to what I'm doing to succeed. The other classes are so overly easy I sit there watching tv while spamming 3 or 4 buttons and everything dies. I hope I continue to have this much fun as I gain more levels.

 

lvl 20 and your speaking as though you know the class? Hmmkay.

To the OP people seem to be answering what they hope happens...I can not say for certain but I keep hearing that JK meaning Guarding and Sentenals (and sith equivalent) will be entirely reworked. That is just hearsay atm though. I do think they will at minimum tweek it.

[Venator-Falco]

Oh, yes they are. You need to manage your Universal Cooldown, your Non-Universal Cooldowns, your Focus, your Target Priority, your Positioning, your Centering, your Zen ticks, your Transcendance active timer, your Inspiration active timer, your Burn ticks, your Form Stacks and Bonuses, and the list goes on and on. Most classes in this game get to stop at Target Priority. Back in LotRO my Captain, Champion, Lore Master, and Warden all got to stop at Positioning and that worked quite well for me.

 

What a load of Fetid Dingos Kidneys

You only have one defensive cooldown that will cycle during a combat outside of a raid situation, so everything else is there until you use it then it is not there. Quite simple really.

Paying attention to focus is no different to paying attention to force for a Consular, Amo for a Trooper, or whatever it is the smuggler calls its resource pool.

Centering sorts its self out, the icon is either lit and able to be used or it isn’t.

Zen ticks you really don’t worry about, you kick it off then burn hard until you are out of Focus, then build it up again.

Transcendence… See Zen

Blah blah blah…

It is not that hard to play the Sentinel. Honestly if you can’t play a sentinel please don’t drive a manual car, you obviously won’t be able to handle the complexity.

[Vasinar]

I really hope they dont dumb it down. I dont see what is so difficult it to begin with

Using every ability available is awesome in my opinion. Why is there so much call to make every class a 1 button wonder?!?!? WHY!?!!

 

because it directly equates to advantage eazy mode (any other class) over the delecate balance of CD, Focus, position, target, def management

[VelnikSP]

In all honesty, I hope they change the mechanics. I don't care if the "hardcore" guys are enjoying the class now, it needs some changes. Some level of complexity is good, but not this.

 

This

frankly, the guys revelling in complexity for the sake of complexity are patting themselves on the back for being able to play paddleball with both hands while standing on their head and whistling yankee doodle.

 

Is it too much to ask that the whole standing on your head thing be done away with? For the fatbeards that like it the way it is, absolutely... they are already masters of the headstand paddleball whistle thing, and taking away even the slightest bit of difficulty to make playing paddleball easier will make things more approachable and thus reduce their 'status' as masters of a stupidly overcomplicated system of playing.

 

In short, every time you see someone say "Lern2play" or something similarly derogatory about those having trouble with an overly complex system, simply remember that they are proud of their headstand paddleball whistling, and thus have to diminish those that don't like headstanding in order to validate themselves and forget the fact that what they are doing, in the end, looks pretty silly.

 

 

Me, I am going to play my powertech till it's fixed. and laugh as I watch light-armored shadow jedi outdamage, out-aggro, and out-survive even the most masterfully played jedi 'tank'. And if I am advertising for a tank, believe me, I won't be looking for a jedi knight. tanking is a very hard job, and if someone is staring at their defensive CD's and juggling survival tools, They don't have the time or the attention to spare for being a REAL meatshield.

[VelnikSP]

And yeah, Sentinel is not at all an "iconic" class. It was created by BW for KoToR, and they're not even the same thing from that game to this one. Then the Sentinel became the "Watchman" in KoToR2... it's wherever the devs want the class to be for each title.

 

Please bear in mind that SWTOR derives just as much from the comic books, cartoon series, books, and computer games as it does from the movies.

 

Believe me, a two-saber swinging defensive jedi is iconic as hell.

[Tedroni]

What a load of Fetid Dingos Kidneys

You only have one defensive cooldown that will cycle during a combat outside of a raid situation, so everything else is there until you use it then it is not there. Quite simple really.

 

Awe has 60 sec cooldown. Force Stasis? 60 seconds. Call on the Force? 20 minutes. Resolute? 2 minutes. Saber Ward? 3 minutes. Some of these can be used for interrupts, or heals, but those *are* defensive measures for Sents. And these are just the defensive skills that ALL KNIGHTS GET.

 

Paying attention to focus is no different to paying attention to force for a Consular, Amo for a Trooper, or whatever it is the smuggler calls its resource pool.

 

Yes. Which is why I included it in the much shorter list of things that other classes have to manage.

 

Centering sorts its self out, the icon is either lit and able to be used or it isn’t.

 

So if I hit Zen when that little icon says anything between 1-29 it'll d the same thing as when it says 30? ... No? ... Then I guess you're wrong about that one, too.

 

Zen ticks you really don’t worry about, you kick it off then burn hard until you are out of Focus, then build it up again.

Transcendence… See Zen

Blah blah blah…

 

So, you don't think "I have 30 Centering, which skill do I use?" when you're in a group? Zen gives your group some small heals. Transcendance gives a boost to speed. Inspiration gives increased outgoing damage and healing, and you NEVER think which one will help your group the best? Six ticks of healing vs. 15 seconds of offense/healing vs. 15 seconds of running faster?

 

Suppose your healer's taken a few hits and his HP is at 50%? What if the tank is at 75% at the same time? Or 45%? These issues don't factor into your decision at all?

 

It is not that hard to play the Sentinel. Honestly if you can’t play a sentinel please don’t drive a manual car, you obviously won’t be able to handle the complexity.

 

And there you go with the personal attacks, again... I think you do that because you're wrong, you know you're wrong, and you can't argue your point effectively without the insults to distract from the actual discussion.

[Venator-Falco]

Oh Boohoo.

There was no personal attack at all, I am just pointing out that the Sentinel is no more difficult than driving a car, if you can’t play a Sentinel then don’t try something with that degree of complexity.

 

It is obvious that you are making life more difficult for yourself than you need to.

 

If you can’t remember if you have burnt a Stun in the last 60 seconds or not that is unfortunate, but it is almost unheard of for a mob to use abilities that need interrupting that often, and if you can’t take a quick glance at what is available or remember what you have done in the last minute I don’t know how to help. Would you rather we had one interrupt and not two? Would it be just the single target one or the AOE one? Would it be the one that stuns or the one that doesn’t? because let us be honest, one would overpower us quite considerably wouldn’t it.

 

So if you hit Zen when it says anything between 1-29 nothing happens at all, but then again the Zen icon won’t be lit up which is what I said in my previous post, so I was in fact totally correct on the subject. What you then do with your Centering stack is entirely up to you. It is not to dissimilar to a healer having to decide to use a big or a small heal, to heal the tank or the DPS, or maybe use an AOE heal that is on a long timer. All of these same decisions are required for other classes as well.

 

These decisions are what make a game, a game, otherwise it would be a movie.

 

So it is clear I am not at all wrong, and I am quite eloquent in arguing my point, and I don’t have to make personal attacks about the abilities of others to argue the point, which would appear to be something of a poor argument technique to me (No the irony of that statement is not lost on me)

[VelnikSP]

Oh Boohoo.

There was no personal attack at all, I am just pointing out that the Sentinel is no more difficult than driving a car, if you can’t play a Sentinel then don’t try something with that degree of complexity.

 

errr, actually it's no more different than driving a helicopter. But, if that's what it's like for you to drive a car, perhaps YOU are the one that should not be on the road.

 

I suppose it could be like driving one of those 1870's steam cars, with dozens of dials and guages and constant steam pressure to keep topped, coal to shovel, engine pressure and heat to monitor with occasional steam venting when it overpressurized or overheated.

 

but do you know what? those cars sucked. they did like 6 miles an hour and were too damned complex, smelly, noisy, and dirty for anyone to want to drive, when a nice, clean horse could do just as well or better.

 

Modern cars are much easier and a smoother, better ride. More fun, in fact, unless you like steam burns.

 

Note the parallels?

[Tedroni]

Oh Boohoo.

There was no personal attack at all, I am just pointing out that the Sentinel is no more difficult than driving a car, if you can’t play a Sentinel then don’t try something with that degree of complexity.

 

So... let me get this straight... You *just* implied I'm a crybaby (the "Boohoo" thing), but that's not a personal attack? Then you clarify by suggesting that I'm an incompetent Sentinel (which I'm not), and also a bad driver (which I also am not)...

 

It is obvious that you are making life more difficult for yourself than you need to.

 

By trying to consider which of my abilities will best serve my group, I'm making my job harder than it should be...? So it's not your job in a group to lend support where it's needed, you just beat the crap out of whatever mob is next on your hit list?

 

If you can’t remember if you have burnt a Stun in the last 60 seconds or not that is unfortunate,

 

Not what I said at all. I simply made sure that the list you began with one item was actually fleshed out to be a little more realistic.

 

but it is almost unheard of for a mob to use abilities that need interrupting that often,

 

You're neglecting to take multiple-mob pulls into account. Also, many caster or ranged mobs that I've fought have had only four or five seconds between casting inductions. With kick on a 6 second cooldown, that means I can only use that one quick-cooldown skill to interrupt every second channeled/inducted attack/heal. So we're left with the list that I presented above, and my previously presented list remains accurate and relevant.

 

and if you can’t take a quick glance at what is available or remember what you have done in the last minute I don’t know how to help.

 

Again, not what I said. I'm just making sure that list that you only had one item on (things Sentinels need to keep an eye on in-combat) is properly fleshed out. I have never asked for your help. I'm simply pointing out several areas where you've made incorrect assumptions and oversights.

 

Would you rather we had one interrupt and not two? Would it be just the single target one or the AOE one? Would it be the one that stuns or the one that doesn’t? because let us be honest, one would overpower us quite considerably wouldn’t it.

 

We have several interrupts. Not two. Awe. Stasis. Kick. Leap. Sweep (if the mob's a normal). And there are plenty of people who feel under-powered, rather than on-par or over-powered. And the more people feel that way, the sooner this game's revenues will begin to drop.

 

So if you hit Zen when it says anything between 1-29 nothing happens at all, but then again the Zen icon won’t be lit up which is what I said in my previous post, so I was in fact totally correct on the subject.

 

You said nothing about Zen being lit up. You said CENTERING takes care of itself. You're trying to merge two of my items on the list (Centering stacking and Zen usage) by saying they're one item.

 

What you then do with your Centering stack is entirely up to you. It is not to dissimilar to a healer having to decide to use a big or a small heal, to heal the tank or the DPS, or maybe use an AOE heal that is on a long timer. All of these same decisions are required for other classes as well.

 

Oh, but it is different because whatever heal a healer uses, they all do similar things: they heal to one degree or another. Your buffs off of Centering do different things, so there's a whole other level of evaluation that goes on if you're using them to the utmost.

 

These decisions are what make a game, a game, otherwise it would be a movie.

 

No, these decisions make this an overly complicated class in an MMO.

 

So it is clear I am not at all wrong,

 

Except where you are, as denoted above.

 

and I am quite eloquent in arguing my point,

 

Eloquent does not mean coherent or logical. It just means you talk pretty.

 

and I don’t have to make personal attacks about the abilities of others to argue the point, which would appear to be something of a poor argument technique to me (No the irony of that statement is not lost on me)

 

You *just* called me a crybaby, an incompetent Sentinel, and a poor driver, but pointing out the consistent flaws in your logic (which is wholly appropriate for a logical argument)... THAT is crossing a line? And I think you mean incongruity, rather than irony. Irony is the contrast between expectation and reality; incongruity is when something is disharmonious or inappropriate.

[ammarjaafar]

in my personal opionion, i really love my class as a sentinel. It is just soo versatile and balanced that expecting BW to change the mechanics of how sentinels work just doesnt feel right. This class is my first character i created. The challenges i faced while levelling up as sentinel were hard especially during the 22-24period when it was impossible to kill that sith ******e that says kira is tge child of the emporer. I found it challenging to kill in pvp and found it frustrating that we were given sooo many skills that i nearly vomited.

 

however, there is a reason for it. I relised us sentinals are really versitle depending on your play style. It truly is a class that gives you the feeling of being rewarded for using skills at the right time when fighting againts really hard mobs or a dps race during hm fp/ops. I relised that we are the class that makes the difference in dps during operation encounters like Gharj and the twi bounty hunters in KP jorg and sono. Our 15% healing/dps increase for 15secobds makes the difference between activating it too early or too late.

 

Its hard enough reaching 50 and going into fps only to realise 80% of the time, drops are all for consulars and smugglers. We barelh get the gear drops and it makes the challenge of playing the sentinel soo much more enjoyable.

 

we sentinels are a class for the brains; not thr brawns. I love thr class cuz of the rewarding feeling it feels when accomplishing through boss fights or saving guildmates life from inc mobs with awe, or the abilty to assist the healer when he/she has insufficient ammo/force to heal by pacifying the mob. Its a challenge. Not for the feint hearted.

 

i can say that if BW change our mechanics to suite the masses(make it easier to use) ill quit.

[Venator-Falco]

Yeah I am suggesting you are having a cry over what was not a personal attack, and have misconstrued it once again ignoring my clarification so once again Boohoo, how about you read what is written instead of just taking offence at everything.

 

And no considering the needs of the group is not what is making life harder than it need be, just that the considerations aren’t that difficult.

 

Ahhh so you have noticed that there are more options available to you for stun, I personally can’t use leap for most scenarios because I haven’t speced for PB Leap but that is one I hadn’t considered, and Yes you do also have stasis, but it takes a little longer to cast so you should already be planning its use. And as you pointed out, sweep only works on weak mobs, so other than a couple of healers you don’t need it as little else has cast timers in the weak category and nothing last long enough to matter. (Once again making things more difficult than they need be, you can ignore lots of things because they don’t come into play)

 

So we get to multi pulls. These come in two flavours for the Sentinel Solo content, in which only one or two mobs will be anything other than weak mobs so you clean them up and get onto the boss quickly and really won’t have much opportunity for reactive interrupts because you will DPS everything out of existence before it gets to do anything. The second flavour is in a group scenario in which case your tank should have most of the control done, other than anything that is CCed on the pull, and the only thing that matters is interrupting the mob in front of you (Awe kick and the planed stasis) (Once again you break it down to its components and this isn’t difficult)

 

Please note in your assertion about how many people feel underpowered that this thread is full of people saying they like the sentinel the way it is, also note that there is as much descent at the “Sentinels are Weak” view as otherwise. Also at the end of the day, note that the Devs have access to combat stats that we can’t see so they will know the truth about all of this.

 

No I am not trying to combine Centering stacking and Zen into one item, I am Combining them into one item, Stacking centering just gives you a bit of a warning of when your Zen becomes available, it is irrelevant other than that, you can ignore it until your Zen button is lit up (Remember my statements about making things more complicated than they need be)

 

And no selecting what you do with centering is not the same as a healers considerations, it is much MUCH simpler. All of your effects are instant, Choosing the wrong one will not cause the tank to die and the raid to wipe. And if you simply look at the numbers the decision is simple in a group use Inspiration if it available and Zen if it isn’t. Transcendance is a waste of time. (Once again simple) If you are solo just stick with Zen.

 

So to your closing statements, There is nothing illogical about anything I have said, and there is nothing incoherent about what I have said, and to suggest as such is once again attacking the messenger and not the message, Yes I insinuated you were having a cry, and that was entirely about you bringing up personal attacks where there were none. And as I said above, I did not suggest you were incompetent in anything, I suggested that a Sentinel isn’t that hard.

[dapixelassassin]

If they dumb it down I am done with this game. It would be such a terrible thing to do. It's not even hard as is.

 

I also dont want them to dumb it down but I do want them to get rid of the jittery attack animations and mechanics and un-nerf our DPS that they did to us today...all it did was make a bad situation even worse, almost unbearable.

 

signed...Twinkie with 2 light sabers

[kahbaal]

Sentinel is not an iconic class. There is no Jedi in any of the movies that specialized in dual wielding lightsabers. The only time you see it happen is when Anikan fights Dooku and that is only because Obi Wan falls and Anikan picks up his saber. Guardian is an icon class, Sentinel is not.

 

Regardless of that I wouldn't expect to see the mechanics of any class significantly changed outside of an expansion.

 

Anyway, they are not that hard of a class to play. Just need to manage cooldowns and come 1.1.4 that will be made 100 times easier to do.

 

Maybe you should read more of the books? Nothing in TOR is iconic, if we follow the movies right? How many of the movies were based in this time period, or even came close? Please don't bring up the movies to prove a point about iconic.

[Vasinar]

I want their style to remain the same. But, I wouldn't mind seeing a few changes made to combat; just to get it more on the same level as the other specs.

 

Not a big change, just a tiny buff in certain areas. Maybe add another second or two to precision slash.

 

I think instead of precision slash combat should have permenent (less powerful) armor penetration. They are after all lightsabers! (which would not be OP because watchmen have in effect the same thing with dot's with no restriction to armor)

[FryChikN]

I also dont want them to dumb it down but I do want them to get rid of the jittery attack animations and mechanics and un-nerf our DPS that they did to us today...all it did was make a bad situation even worse, almost unbearable.

 

signed...Twinkie with 2 light sabers

 

whats this dps nerf you speak of?

[Stefan_Payne]

What do you guys all have against the sentinel?

 

I haven't played my Sentinel for a while and played a trooper instead. Now, after some patches, I tried it again and I was surprised how crappy my trooper was and how much damage the sentinel does. It seems that the normal atk does almost 1k dmg...

 

And playing the trooper is kinda boring, my Watchman sentinel is way more interesting to play. Of course, you can't just stupidly press a button, but there is always something to do with the sentinel, while the trooper is more waiting.

 

Frankly: The trooper feels much mor 'casual' than the Sentinel.

If you always die with your char while attacking normal mobs, than either you're too weak (bad equip or level too low) or you chose the wrong class for you. I now realized that the Sentinel was the right choice for me. Though some Story Missions are really tough...