Healers = Alpha Class

[Ruuprect]

Im a healer and I can't kill a tank with my abysmal dps. Tanks = Alpha Class.

 

They are impossible for me to kill -- Nerf Tanks

 

If that tank is guarding someone they are also impossible for me to kill therefor anyone a tank is guarding = Alpha Class.

 

 

Does this sound right to u guys?

[Ashes_Arizona]

Wrong. You have **** for control. You don't even have the charge. A melee without charge is much easier to deal with than a melee with charge.

 

 

I'm not a sorc but I know a sorc bubble doesn't absorb 30 seconds of damage lol. It absorbs a couple attacks and they can't use it again for 20 seconds?

 

 

Once again you're on a spec with **** for control. I don't know what spec most powertechs run in PvP but I'm willing to bet it isn't your spec.

 

Shield Tech get's Jet Charge, they sacrifice a lot of DPS to get those talents, Jet Charge is high in the tree.

 

I've got Shoulder Slam, but that only works within 5m and only against incapacitated targets and the knee slapper there is none of my CC's are considered "incapacitation" so Shoulder Slam is an ability that is so situational that its almost unusable.

 

When you do Knockback/Force Run I can catch you with grapple, but even that isn't 100% guaranteed if you've already got a resolve bar from my previous CC attempts. Its essentially a waste of the control ability at that point because it won't work.

 

So I can either...not use electro-dart and carbonite spray while fighting you, and hope that situationally I force you to flee, then use grapple on you, which will immediately fill your resolve bar, and then hope your resolve bar goes down enough for another CC to stick while I fight you when your KB and Run are on cooldown and your KB has a base cooldown of 20 seconds. So if you've used it and run away, and I grapple you back, in that space of time 5 seconds of the KB cooldown is already gone. So I CC you, lets say you can't break it cause your CC breaker is on CD, great thats 4 more seconds for me to damage you, only 11 seconds left on the KB cooldown, 4 seconds up, you heal the damage I did, I carbonite spray you and lets say you can't break out of that, so I damage you some more, thats 13 seconds down on your KB cooldown, heal through the damage again, Force Slow me, and even if I blow Hydraulic Overrides to get out of that you have your own CC you can throw down and..voila KB is off cooldown, KB me back even further, I'm stunned, can't move, Hydraulic Overrides wasted and you can then heal back to 100% and...run away, or have your grav round spamming friend come mash me into paste..whichever is relevant for the moment.

[Crujido]

I would say most classes are balanced, but the ones that stick out the most (good player wise speaking) are either vanguards/powertechs or a good dps sage/sorc.

[Ashes_Arizona]

lol at operative holding off an entire time by himself while stunned in a fire

 

No the operative walked through the fire, he wasn't stunned in it. The JC in the original post got stunned in the fire, broke CC healed out of the damage, popped Force Armor and kept on going. But lol at conveniently mixing up the two examples for the purposes of attempting to invalidate a debate.

[Patrickgf]

I am an arsenal merc with champ gear my burst dps can hit 12k in a few seconds and sages lolfacehealtank me every single time i get them to like 20% and they just shield and have full health again after a heal or two.

[pixelelement]

pre 50 any class should be able to kill a healer, its once expertise is introduced that they get a little funky...

 

in full BM gear they get +15% healing and +15% damage reduction. now keep in mind IM NOT QQing, but thats what people are having issues with. i think healing is fine in this game. if you want to see stupid healinggo play World of Warcaft.

 

in WoW you cant kill a resto druid 1v1 you can be the best dps in the game, but they will kit you allllllll day, heals will out do your dps every time. only a few classes can kill one and thats after a long match. but now in this game a healer cant kite, cant dot very well, cant stealth heal, cant "bear form" heal, this game is much better about healing.

 

if you havent play wow then i can see why you would feel the healing in this game is op. but if you have played wow, then you know for a fact that SWTOR did a much better job with healing specs this time around.

 

My Merc is 50, and I have a 50 ASN Tank. My tank is nothing but an annoyance to these healers (talking pebble tossers). My Pyro Merc has 7-8% EXP, and he really frustrates these guys because he dose DOT damage. The ones with sick gear can heal through me right now, but they still have to heal them selves not other players.

 

What I meant to say is when my BH gets into full champ gear, and if he has zero chance at killing a pebble tosser healer in a 1 on 1 then its a balance issue. My tank I am ok with not being able to kill a healer 1 on 1 my DPS should be able to kill one.

 

Right now my BH can drop these guys, but a good healer can heal through my damage in a 1 on 1.

 

 

All things being equal it should be a 50/50 in a 1 on 1: (If your looking for balance)

 

DPS vs Heals = Damage Done vs Damage Healed

Tank vs DPS = Damage Taken vs Damage done

Tank vs Heals = Damage Taken vs Damage Healed (This one would be the hardest to balance)

Edited February 8, 2012 by pixelelement

[Patrickgf]

I've got Shoulder Slam, but that only works within 5m and only against incapacitated targets and the knee slapper there is none of my CC's are considered "incapacitation" so Shoulder Slam is an ability that is so situational that its almost unusable.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong here but I thought shoulder slam was unusable in PvP. I don't even have it on my skill bar.

[Ashes_Arizona]

pre 50 any class should be able to kill a healer, its once expertise is introduced that they get a little funky...

 

in full BM gear they get +15% healing and +15% damage reduction. now keep in mind IM NOT QQing, but thats what people are having issues with. i think healing is fine in this game. if you want to see stupid healinggo play World of Warcaft.

 

in WoW you cant kill a resto druid 1v1 you can be the best dps in the game, but they will kit you allllllll day, heals will out do your dps every time. only a few classes can kill one and thats after a long match. but now in this game a healer cant kite, cant dot very well, cant stealth heal, cant "bear form" heal, this game is much better about healing.

 

if you havent play wow then i can see why you would feel the healing in this game is op. but if you have played wow, then you know for a fact that SWTOR did a much better job with healing specs this time around.

 

I haven't played WoW since Ulduar so I'm not up to speed on that situation as it stands lately. When I did play WoW I took the road less traveled and was a Feral spec Bear Tank, rather than the rather always popular Resto spec or the Boomkin spec which was also fairly popular when I was PvPing in WoW.

 

I always take the road less traveled and I always do pretty well with it. And pre-50 yes I could maul healers pretty well. In the 50 bracket, not so much. And the difference is pretty blatantly obvious.

 

But...I'm sure someone will say its because all the healers in the pre-50 bracket were bads.

[Ashes_Arizona]

Correct me if I'm wrong here but I thought shoulder slam was unusable in PvP. I don't even have it on my skill bar.

 

LOL I think its unusable anywhere. Like I said as an AP I have no ability that incapacitates a target. I don't even use it in PvE, much less PvP, I'm not sure why they even gave it to me.

[MasterBlasterO]

Have you guys played WoW? It takes 3+ dps to take down my holy paladin and that game is supposed to be the "most complete game" out. Healers are meant to keep a group alive and what good is it if one dps can out damage one healer's heals. You beat good healers and groups with coordination and strategy. Just having someone spam lighting or tracer on a healer won't do much.

[Wildcat]

A fully specced healer (Sage) is probably the easiest thing to kill.

 

I should know, I play one.

 

Which sucks in the warzones and in the "Red Rover" fest on Ilum. I can't directly kill an enemy as I lack any DPS or defenses whatsoever. I'm only good for healing others who can kill them for me.

[Mohawksinspace]

TOR is a WoW-Clone mmo.

 

Healing was always too strong in WoW, healing will be too strong in wow-clones. The fact is healer 'resources' do not make healers very conservative with their heals, and push back from getting hit is laughably weak.

 

A lot of this ends up being the case because of the PvE model. Devs think bosses need to hit absurdly hard and as such healers need to heal absurdly well.

[DrekorSilverfang]

You bad dps need to shut up.

 

Just got rocked on my healer commando by a pyrotech BH.

 

DPS compounded with CC in this game is absolutely out of control. Stop being terrible.

 

That better have been a Pyro PT not a Pyro Merc... if it was a merc you are awful.

[aeterno]

You're a PT right OP? Means you have more utility in the interrupt/control area than most if not all other DPS classes.

 

Try chasing down a healer as say a dps jugg. You'll litterary just chase him around with only the satisfaction of knowing he's not healing his teammates to show for it. Precious little in terms of interrupts and cc at your disposal.

 

It does get annoying when it becomes obvious that you're gonna loose a WZ 1min after starting it when you see you got nothing support wise in your group and the other side has 3 guarded healers, but hey, that's just life.

 

Sometimes the guy that ends up the WZ with half a million healed is on your team and sometimes he aint.

[Ruuprect]

A fully specced healer (Sage) is probably the easiest thing to kill.

 

I should know, I play one.

 

Which sucks in the warzones and in the "Red Rover" fest on Ilum. I can't directly kill an enemy as I lack any DPS or defenses whatsoever. I'm only good for healing others who can kill them for me.

 

^^This^^

 

I am not sure where ppl get any other idea than this. I like playing my healer sage but a smart team can put me down in seconds. This sage you saw get through the fire was probably at full health, popped hit only instant dot heal(which is very weak), popped bubble, got cc'd, used cc breaker, force ran out of fire, and healed himself with another instant dot. If he was guarded the fire does not hit that hard and he very well could have been being healed by another healer you did not see nearby.

 

Not sure why this is an issue.

[Ashes_Arizona]

A fully specced healer (Sage) is probably the easiest thing to kill.

 

I should know, I play one.

 

Which sucks in the warzones and in the "Red Rover" fest on Ilum. I can't directly kill an enemy as I lack any DPS or defenses whatsoever. I'm only good for healing others who can kill them for me.

 

Most of the really problematic sage's aren't fully seer spec'd. They're hybrids. Now if you're full seer spec'd you're PvE spec'd so what do you expect, in PvP you're going to do the same thing as you do in PvE, stand back and heal.

 

I mean seriously I'm not on this board complaining that my Immortal Spec Juggernaut is more or less nothing but a walking hitpoint bar in PvP, I realize that the way I'm geared and spec'd on that class I'm designed for PvE only. Thus the BH PT AP spec, survivability and good slightly above average DPS.

 

But even though you can't directly kill an enemy, I can't kill you either, not as a single DPS.

 

Now lets talk about Red Rover cause I play that enough during the Ilum Republic zergs that happen twice a day. Yeah I definitely target anyone thats healing and yank them into the meat grinder. But thats a meat grinder, of course you're going to die.

 

WZ's are a different situation, theres no zerg meat grinder to drop you into. And as I've stated time and time again having to completely waste the effort of one person on your team simply to keep one healer on the other team too busy healing themselves to heal everyone else is really unproductive. And its almost especially unproductive when you're dealing with a team that has 4+ healers on it, cause it doesn't matter if you're locking one down or not, theres still 3 more healing and nothings getting done because of it.

 

I mark every healer I see in WZ's I call focuses, and we waste all our effort trying to put the healers down and thus the objectives get completely failed cause it takes at least 8 people to take down 4 healers and you'll be lucky if you get two of the four down half the time, before the enemy teams DPS output has put down 2/3rds of your team.

 

Whats the answer? Bring more healers! Which simply goes back to the topic of this post, Healers are the Alpha Class of PvP, alone, or in groups they dictate the outcome of any and all PvP engagements.

[exphryl]

The healers that are getting 1v1 Wrecked against DPS.

 

Makes me think there are a lot of bad healers out there.

 

I am a Pyrotech BH in full BM Gear. We have probably the highest burst of any class out there right now. The bad to good played Sorcs I can blow up (if I get good crit RNG in a matter of seconds without even having to interrupt their heals. They just die).

 

The great Sorcs/Sages and Trooper/Mercs take a very long time and exhaust everything I have and at that point it is either I need to run to try to get rid of my heat or die as their reinforcements come. Which, in this situation. I feel the system is fine. I can't kill them they can't kill me. All is right in the world

 

Add in a Guarded Sorc. Sorry, it's good game people.

 

I love guard, it's an easy way to get medals and protect my team mates (even in a DPS Spec). But it needs to be restructured a bit since when you add Taunts in to the mix you can basically let the healer free cast while pounding on him and him not taking hardly any damage. (I imagine a lot of nerf healer threads stem from guarded healers)

 

I tend to ignore Operative healers, they just run and hot themselves nonstop and it's just not worth the trouble.

 

I also don't understand the "Full Heals do Low DPS!" argument. You don't. You do decent DPS. It's no where near the other trees you have, but it's considerable to whittle down the opponent while you keep your health at a manageable level.

Edited February 8, 2012 by exphryl

[Ashes_Arizona]

You're a PT right OP? Means you have more utility in the interrupt/control area than most if not all other DPS classes.

 

Try chasing down a healer as say a dps jugg. You'll litterary just chase him around with only the satisfaction of knowing he's not healing his teammates to show for it. Precious little in terms of interrupts and cc at your disposal.

 

It does get annoying when it becomes obvious that you're gonna loose a WZ 1min after starting it when you see you got nothing support wise in your group and the other side has 3 guarded healers, but hey, that's just life.

 

Sometimes the guy that ends up the WZ with half a million healed is on your team and sometimes he aint.

 

Force Charge? Backhand? Threatening Roar? I have a 50 Jugg btw. Sounds only variably different than my PT's Grapple, Electro-Dart, Carbonite Spray.

[Calibretto]

I agree that healers are a bit out of balance right now, but what's more annoying to me is the lag I get around trying to use kick. I have a good rig, good connection and good skills - I hardly EVER miss a kick in PvE. In PvP however I constantly kick to no avail or have kick otherwise act really wonky on me. That makes it hard for me to gauge how hard healers are to kill as I'm basically just sitting there trying to out dps their heals and hitting mistimed (not my fault) kicks. If I could interrupt them reliably then I'd have a much better idea of how tough they were.

[Ruuprect]

Most of the really problematic sage's aren't fully seer spec'd. They're hybrids. Now if you're full seer spec'd you're PvE spec'd so what do you expect, in PvP you're going to do the same thing as you do in PvE, stand back and heal.

 

I mean seriously I'm not on this board complaining that my Immortal Spec Juggernaut is more or less nothing but a walking hitpoint bar in PvP, I realize that the way I'm geared and spec'd on that class I'm designed for PvE only. Thus the BH PT AP spec, survivability and good slightly above average DPS.

 

But even though you can't directly kill an enemy, I can't kill you either, not as a single DPS.

 

Now lets talk about Red Rover cause I play that enough during the Ilum Republic zergs that happen twice a day. Yeah I definitely target anyone thats healing and yank them into the meat grinder. But thats a meat grinder, of course you're going to die.

 

WZ's are a different situation, theres no zerg meat grinder to drop you into. And as I've stated time and time again having to completely waste the effort of one person on your team simply to keep one healer on the other team too busy healing themselves to heal everyone else is really unproductive. And its almost especially unproductive when you're dealing with a team that has 4+ healers on it, cause it doesn't matter if you're locking one down or not, theres still 3 more healing and nothings getting done because of it.

 

I mark every healer I see in WZ's I call focuses, and we waste all our effort trying to put the healers down and thus the objectives get completely failed cause it takes at least 8 people to take down 4 healers and you'll be lucky if you get two of the four down half the time, before the enemy teams DPS output has put down 2/3rds of your team.

 

Whats the answer? Bring more healers! Which simply goes back to the topic of this post, Healers are the Alpha Class of PvP, alone, or in groups they dictate the outcome of any and all PvP engagements.

 

What would be your solution then? No healers in WZ's? I got into 3 WZ's yesterday that had no healers, I respecced earlier because I wanted to dps a bit and get a feel for it. I got through with those matches and went back to heals because the matches were boring.

 

Both teams no healers-

 

Everyone dies in like 5 seconds, the deaths count at the end was rediculous. It is no fun when everyone is just running back from spawn constantly.

 

When I went back to healing we won every match - now healers make a big difference but without them its just boring - Would you limit the heal specs in every WZ? I could see that maybe. Then have both team only allowd 2 heals in each WZ to even out?

 

I dont know what solution you are looking for but there is always a way to beat a team with good healz. I have done 900k healing in a voidstar and we lost - how can you explain that if healz are the Alpha?

[Darklyn]

Is it possible for dps tanks to heal in SWTOR?

[nschlan]

I can solo kill most healers (aside form the really, really good ones.) Of course, my main interrupt has a 6 second CD and I have another on a 12 second CD and 2 more on 1 min CDs, plus a 20% healing received debuff. (Sentinel) I can unload as long as I just watch for cast bars.

[Ashes_Arizona]

What would be your solution then? No healers in WZ's? I got into 3 WZ's yesterday that had no healers, I respecced earlier because I wanted to dps a bit and get a feel for it. I got through with those matches and went back to heals because the matches were boring.

 

Both teams no healers-

 

Everyone dies in like 5 seconds, the deaths count at the end was rediculous. It is no fun when everyone is just running back from spawn constantly.

 

When I went back to healing we won every match - now healers make a big difference but without them its just boring - Would you limit the heal specs in every WZ? I could see that maybe. Then have both team only allowd 2 heals in each WZ to even out?

 

I dont know what solution you are looking for but there is always a way to beat a team with good healz. I have done 900k healing in a voidstar and we lost - how can you explain that if healz are the Alpha?

 

I'm not sure its a case of nerfing healers as much as its a case of making sure they have a proper natural predator. Which as someone several pages back pointed out, that natural predator was the Concealment/Saboteur spec Agent/Smug. These spec's could drop a healer or anyone else on their faces for 4 seconds, which in conjunction with their kinetic burst damage could drop a healers HP low enough to kill them. In the case of good IA's/Smug's they could pull this off with other classes too but not as often.

 

I had my fair share of eating floorplates while being stuck full of knives, believe me. But simple facts are that was the "interrupt" counter to the healer class.

 

Now IA's and Smug's have one of the least efficient knockdown stuns in the game. Almost everyone else has a base of 4 seconds for their CC there are a few that are 8 seconds, but the nerf to IA's and Smug's removed a critical tactical response to dealing with healers. Pre-nerf one Concealment IA could put a healer down and out for long enough for that healer to die. Now people are literally saying "You need at least 2 DPS classes on a healer to kill it or it won't die at all."

 

That's pretty much clear as day to me.

 

Metaphorically, if you take the prime predator out of an environment, its prey then becomes impossible to control. IA's and Smug's were built to be the prime predator against healers, they're no longer effective in that role, so the prey (healers) are breeding out of control and are nearly impossible to stop. Shoot too many wolves, and you end up with deer rooting up peoples backyard garden's and racoons in your trash dumpsters its a commonly known fact of life in whats left of the world that still realizes there are other animals in it besides humans.

[Ashes_Arizona]

Is it possible for dps tanks to heal in SWTOR?

 

Commando's and Mercs can but its not very efficient if they're DPS spec'd but they can heal themselves and they do. Good ones can be especially troublesome to take down but as stated I seem to at least to date, have less problem with heavy armored healers than I do with med/light armor healers which makes like almost no sense to me but its true.

[Celebrus]

Really?

 

 

Sniper chiming in: if you can't kill a healer 1on1, you are bad, things are as they should be.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Ellvaan
inflammatory/rude (Pm'd)