Healers = Alpha Class

[Knifewrench]

My favorite part is when I get a PUG that's too stupid to know what a healer is... and it's Voidstar and there's 4+ of them.

 

That's a lost cause.

[AidenPryde]

1v1ed a Merc healer last night in huttball as a Rage specced Jugg.

 

Took me 4 minutes to kill him even though I was using all my interrupts.

 

Felt like a Raid encounter.

 

He didn't get a chance to hurt me really, so I don't really think 1v1 they need a nerf.

 

However in a group environment they make or break your team.

 

I think it's kind of crazy that some healers get the mitigation they get.

[Amiracle]

I like healers when they are healing me but please nerf them because I cannot 1v1 them.

[savionen]

Healers are the real tanks of PvP.

[Ruuprect]

I hate to even really bring this up cause I love good healers as much as anyone else, and I don't want to see them not in PvP.

 

But its just sickeningly obvious especially in the 50 bracket that Healers are the alpha class in TOR PvP.

 

I realize that healers are dealing with a 30% healing reduction in PvP, but when I can double stun a Jedi Consular in a fire pit in Huttball and they can pop their bubble and heal through and somehow survive me, the fire and anything else and keep going, HPS in is heavily outweighing DPS out.

 

And its not just JC's but JC:Sage and SI:Sorceror have a double benefit of pretty much their secondary focus statistics, power and alacrity literally benefit everything they do, their DPS, their HPS, their survivability with their defensive abilities....its really rather insane.

 

Its not just the force users either. Healers in general are far tougher than they really should be. I'm not saying healers should be a speed bump but what exactly is the point of being a DPS class at all if you can be a DPS/Healer/Tank?

 

Back a long long time ago, there was a term coined in RPG's called the "Tank Mage" which was a completely overpowered class combination, well TOR, for lack of a better word has "Tank Sages" but pretty much it applies any class with heals.

 

People talk about Biochem being out of balance, but to be frank I don't see it, I'm 400 Biochem, my perma-medpack is a nice thing to have, but its literally a hail mary pass in regards to facing any geared class that heals.

 

BioWare you've got a really bad case of Tank Mages. Seriously.

 

So let me get this straight. Your telling me that a healer can not only live through the firepit with you hitting them but then they get out and kill you, LOL.

 

If you are getting killed by full spec healers you have serious issues, because that is the only way you would have a valid complaint here. I am full spec Champ geared sage healer and I can kill no one in full healing spec, yeah I can tank a few players for about 10-20 seconds depending on thier skill, but I AM NOT HEALING ANYONE ELSE WHILE I AM TANKING ohter players. Therefor those 1-2 dps have done thier job and taken me out completely, even though I am not dead I am not doing anything but healing myself. Not sure how this is an issue.

 

You are mad you can't 2 shot a healer?

[Amiracle]

Stun....breaks on damage.

 

Fire pit....does damage to someone standing in it.

 

Healers stands in fire pit.

 

I trust you can figure out the rest.

[der_mawel]

well huttball isnt won by dps but by knockbacks and superior ballhandling. you dont need to kill the healer, just kick him down.

 

the cluster tactic in huttbal works rather well but there are lots of countermeasures which all require teamplay.

 

actually its not the heal that is strong in hutball but the tank. every healer would admitt that an ally without guard is not healable when attacked by 2 serious dds. (sorc+merc for example)

[Manigma]

I really really don't think Sages or Sorcerors are a problem, it's Heavy Armoured healers that themselves are guarded by another tank, that right there is just a walking wall.

[ZenBones]

I hate to even really bring this up cause I love good healers as much as anyone else, and I don't want to see them not in PvP.

 

But its just sickeningly obvious especially in the 50 bracket that Healers are the alpha class in TOR PvP.

 

I realize that healers are dealing with a 30% healing reduction in PvP, but when I can double stun a Jedi Consular in a fire pit in Huttball and they can pop their bubble and heal through and somehow survive me, the fire and anything else and keep going, HPS in is heavily outweighing DPS out.

 

I'm noticing this too. It's amazing how much they can heal through. Not just the consulars, but any good healer. Sometimes they don't even fight back, and just heal through the incoming damage.

[Raice]

Dont mind this one. The operatives used the same excuse pre-nerf. " I only killed you in under 5 seconds in a single stun cause you are a terrible player". LOL. Get real. Sorcs/Sage and Healers make TOR PVP a joke. A joke on everyone who doesn't roll one of these.

 

You know... before we Scrappers/Concealers got nerfed... this whole "Healing is OP" business was never an issue. Can ya guess why?

 

You don't have to say it... You're welcome.

 

Now, if they would just put us back to where we were, and then Buff the Heavies a little bit (or even better, teach them how to gear themselves properly for Absorption and Shield Rating) like I said to do in the first place - all of this would fix itself.

 

But noOOOOoo... everyone had to get us nerfed. Everyone wants to NERF! Don't try buffing stuff... NERF IT!

 

Transfer of hate... it went from Scrappers/Concealment... and not a week later - right on to Healers. Good job community! Way to think things through.

[Daqu]

1v1 a healer should be able to heal 100% of incoming damage. Working as intended.

 

Edit for clarification: A heals that is only healing himself should not be at risk of dying, since, you are not at risk of dying either. If the heals starts to DPS they risk wasting their resources and not being able to keep their heals up to match your damage output. They can try to cheese you down slowly, in which case you should definitely be able to avoid a death, but going all out will definitely end up in a loss due to lack of resources. A heals that can stand 1v1 against you by out-healing your solo DPS is no better and no worse than you are. Teamplay, mate.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Daqu

[Orangerascal]

Stun....breaks on damage.

 

Fire pit....does damage to someone standing in it.

 

Healers stands in fire pit.

 

I trust you can figure out the rest.

 

Except a stun does not break on damage a mez does. Two different abilities

[Ashes_Arizona]

You know... before we Scrappers/Concealers got nerfed... this whole "Healing is OP" business was never an issue. Can ya guess why?

 

You don't have to say it... You're welcome.

 

Now, if they would just put us back to where we were, and then Buff the Heavies a little bit (or even better, teach them how to gear themselves properly for Absorption and Shield Rating) like I said to do in the first place - all of this would fix itself.

 

But noOOOOoo... everyone had to get us nerfed. Everyone wants to NERF! Don't try buffing stuff... NERF IT!

 

Transfer of hate... it went from Scrappers/Concealment... and not a week later - right on to Healers. Good job community! Way to think things through.

 

I'm not really hating healers I'm just noticing that yes there is something out of joint here. Whatever class that was supposed to be their trump card is no longer capable of doing its job.

 

Its that you are actually right Ops and Scoundrels, when we have one that is concealment spec can drop a healer, in the right situation, long enough for everyone to gang pile the healer and get rid of it, but Ops and Scoundrels alone can't get the job done.

 

And maybe thats why there is a sudden rise in prominence in regards to how much effect healers are having in PvP in general. Because I will admit its something that only just recently seemed to come into prominence. Previous to the Op/Scoundrel nerf, healers were there and even previous to that there were a few that knew how to really get their money's worth from the Salvation bug, but healers seemed a lot less problematic.

 

And it is probably a case of exactly what you are saying. Operatives and Scoundrel's were probably the predator in the circular food chain that were explicitly effective at taking down healers, thus breaking cross healing chains more effectively and making it easier for teams to take down groups of healers.

 

Now with the predator missing, groups of healers in PvP are nearly impossible to stop. Because the chain of healing cannot be interrupted without as previously stated, consistently focusing each healer with 2x people, which cannot be effectively done in an 8 vs 8 scenario without losing complete operational capability.

 

As per usual as I sleep seems there have been the mix of OMGL2P posts, posts from people who are seeing this issue too, healers who are admitting they're impossible to kill....and this post here which I feel actually hits the issue on the head.

 

It is a team game in PvP, and team PvP means each class has a position in the food chain and a predator that is especially dangerous to it, and the healing AC's have lost their primary predator and are now require mini-zerging to even get them out of the equation.

 

And the problem is, killing healers really only gives you a few seconds of respite, before they're right back doing the same thing.

 

So I think the quoted post is actually right, its not so much that healers are god classes, its that they don't have any class that is specifically designed to keep them in line any more....so they just seem alpha cause of that.

[Jooji]

I'm not really hating healers I'm just noticing that yes there is something out of joint here. Whatever class that was supposed to be their trump card is no longer capable of doing its job.

You couldn't be further from the truth. Marauders, Assassins, Operatives(post-nerf), Mercs, Sorcs can all wreck me 1v1. I'm referring to skilled, geared players of those classes, not scrubs/baddies. I'm full champion geared. Any of those classes I mentioned tears me up 1v1 once my reactive shield is over.

 

Its that you are actually right Ops and Scoundrels, when we have one that is concealment spec can drop a healer, in the right situation, long enough for everyone to gang pile the healer and get rid of it, but Ops and Scoundrels alone can't get the job done.

There's one operative on my server who wrecks me. The rest are terrible. What does that tell you? Either he grossly out-gears every other operative or he's the only one who knows what he's doing. I'm going with the latter.

 

And maybe thats why there is a sudden rise in prominence in regards to how much effect healers are having in PvP in general. Because I will admit its something that only just recently seemed to come into prominence. Previous to the Op/Scoundrel nerf, healers were there and even previous to that there were a few that knew how to really get their money's worth from the Salvation bug, but healers seemed a lot less problematic.

You need to stop theory crafting and start playing the game.

 

And it is probably a case of exactly what you are saying. Operatives and Scoundrel's were probably the predator in the circular food chain that were explicitly effective at taking down healers, thus breaking cross healing chains more effectively and making it easier for teams to take down groups of healers.

Any skilled, geared melee does this just fine.

 

Now with the predator missing, groups of healers in PvP are nearly impossible to stop. Because the chain of healing cannot be interrupted without as previously stated, consistently focusing each healer with 2x people, which cannot be effectively done in an 8 vs 8 scenario without losing complete operational capability.

If 3 people make a hard switch to me regardless of my healing class, I'm dead within 5 seconds.

 

As per usual as I sleep seems there have been the mix of OMGL2P posts, posts from people who are seeing this issue too, healers who are admitting they're impossible to kill....and this post here which I feel actually hits the issue on the head.

A healer saying he's impossible to kill must either be playing only in good premades or he never faces other good premades. A couple premades on my server know how to handle our healers. The other 97% of Imps don't. Healing isn't broken. It's lack of skill.

 

It is a team game in PvP, and team PvP means each class has a position in the food chain and a predator that is especially dangerous to it, and the healing AC's have lost their primary predator and are now require mini-zerging to even get them out of the equation.

I want you to do a little experiment. Find an equal geared healer and marauder/sent. Have them duel. Assuming the marauder knows what he's doing(most don't) the marauder will eventually kill the healer.

 

Now I know you want the healer dead in 2 seconds but if the healer is forced to heal himself and kite he's going to have much less time to heal others, thus negating his effect on the game. If I'm left alone, and that's often the case in a warzone, I can do 500k healing in one round of a Voidstar. If I have one person on me the whole time(even a scrub melee) that number is more like 200-300k.

 

So I think the quoted post is actually right, its not so much that healers are god classes, its that they don't have any class that is specifically designed to keep them in line any more....so they just seem alpha cause of that.

Before making ridiculous posts like this you should consider playing a healer. Maybe learn how to play your class also. I already mentioned the classes that wreck healers. If you play one of those and can't handle a healer then this really is a L2P issue, sorry.

[Bnol]

Now, if they would just put us back to where we were, and then Buff the Heavies a little bit (or even better, teach them how to gear themselves properly for Absorption and Shield Rating) like I said to do in the first place - all of this would fix itself.

 

You do know that Shield/Absorb do virtually nothing against Concealment since almost all (and all of the hard hitting abilities) are tech abilities that do not trigger shield.

[Ashes_Arizona]

...snipped bantha fodder

 

How about you go play the game and stop trying to troll me into a fight.

 

Your entire argument revolves around everyone being bads. I'm a bad, all the operatives on your server except one are bads. We're all bads. Everyone that can't kill healers are bads! All the healers that can't be killed are playing with bads!

 

Yet previously in PvP I did not feel healers were that big a problem. Now suddenly after a couple patches they are.

 

So...I wasn't a bad but I'm now a bad?

 

You continually trot out the insults but you don't really even bring anything qualitative to your arguments. You essentially and openly present yourself as someone trying to obfuscate an issue for their own benefit when you state, in total, all the operatives on your server....except one, are bads, cause hes the only one that can kill you. In other posts you continually state that you get wrecked by a whole fruit basket of classes, and healers aren't alpha classes at all, but, somehow, all the operatives on your server, except one that can actually kill you...are bads. Anyone that can't kill a healer is a bad...which includes every operative on your server but one.

 

So, in the future, try harder not to contradict yourself when you're making arguments, because you tend to completely invalidate whatever dubious credibility you may have, if you have any at all.

[Ashes_Arizona]

You do know that Shield/Absorb do virtually nothing against Concealment since almost all (and all of the hard hitting abilities) are tech abilities that do not trigger shield.

 

I was going to reply to this but I didn't.

 

Shield procs in PvP? Oh the hilarity BioWare, you totally trolled me on my Juggernaut man!

[Jooji]

How about you go play the game and stop trying to troll me into a fight.

 

Your entire argument revolves around everyone being bads. I'm a bad, all the operatives on your server except one are bads. We're all bads. Everyone that can't kill healers are bads! All the healers that can't be killed are playing with bads!

 

Yet previously in PvP I did not feel healers were that big a problem. Now suddenly after a couple patches they are.

 

So...I wasn't a bad but I'm now a bad?

 

You continually trot out the insults but you don't really even bring anything qualitative to your arguments. You essentially and openly present yourself as someone trying to obfuscate an issue for their own benefit when you state, in total, all the operatives on your server....except one, are bads, cause hes the only one that can kill you. In other posts you continually state that you get wrecked by a whole fruit basket of classes, and healers aren't alpha classes at all, but, somehow, all the operatives on your server, except one that can actually kill you...are bads. Anyone that can't kill a healer is a bad...which includes every operative on your server but one.

 

So, in the future, try harder not to contradict yourself when you're making arguments, because you tend to completely invalidate whatever dubious credibility you may have, if you have any at all.

 

This is a L2P issue whether you like it or not. And you need to be geared to take down a geared healer.

 

I've dueled the better players from my guild and gotten wrecked. I've seen certain(very few) imperials wreck me 1v1.

 

The majority don't have the skill or gear. It's that simple.

 

My only chance as a healer is to LoS, kite, etc. It's impossible to heal through a good DPS on me. You can test this yourself if you'd like, get a melee and a healer. Have the healer stand still and attempt to heal through the melee. Between the damage of the melee, interrupts, stuns, etc the healer can only last so long.

 

Now if I'm in a warzone and have a tracer champion start spamming on me obviously I'm going to LoS. If I have a melee on me I'll kite/LoS to prevent charges, etc, but a good melee will find his way back to me and make my life miserable.

 

**And in response to Nocadoj healing is in a really good place right now. It isn't OP like healing in WoW was, but it's strong enough that combined with good tactics, spell usage I can still be effective in a warzone. A good hard switch by 3 people still wrecks any healer though but I'm OK with that.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Jooji

[Nocadoj]

Healers already get **** for medals. Nerf the role and you can say bye bye a good chunk of those players. Then we will have all kind of qq threads about how they cant find healers for anything.

[bellok]

I'm not really hating healers I'm just noticing that yes there is something out of joint here. Whatever class that was supposed to be their trump card is no longer capable of doing its job.

 

Its that you are actually right Ops and Scoundrels, when we have one that is concealment spec can drop a healer, in the right situation, long enough for everyone to gang pile the healer and get rid of it, but Ops and Scoundrels alone can't get the job done.

 

And maybe thats why there is a sudden rise in prominence in regards to how much effect healers are having in PvP in general. Because I will admit its something that only just recently seemed to come into prominence. Previous to the Op/Scoundrel nerf, healers were there and even previous to that there were a few that knew how to really get their money's worth from the Salvation bug, but healers seemed a lot less problematic.

 

And it is probably a case of exactly what you are saying. Operatives and Scoundrel's were probably the predator in the circular food chain that were explicitly effective at taking down healers, thus breaking cross healing chains more effectively and making it easier for teams to take down groups of healers.

 

Now with the predator missing, groups of healers in PvP are nearly impossible to stop. Because the chain of healing cannot be interrupted without as previously stated, consistently focusing each healer with 2x people, which cannot be effectively done in an 8 vs 8 scenario without losing complete operational capability.

 

As per usual as I sleep seems there have been the mix of OMGL2P posts, posts from people who are seeing this issue too, healers who are admitting they're impossible to kill....and this post here which I feel actually hits the issue on the head.

 

It is a team game in PvP, and team PvP means each class has a position in the food chain and a predator that is especially dangerous to it, and the healing AC's have lost their primary predator and are now require mini-zerging to even get them out of the equation.

 

And the problem is, killing healers really only gives you a few seconds of respite, before they're right back doing the same thing.

 

So I think the quoted post is actually right, its not so much that healers are god classes, its that they don't have any class that is specifically designed to keep them in line any more....so they just seem alpha cause of that.

 

 

You still obviously havn't done your homework, nor have you read anything I have posted here in response to this thread. You obviously know nothing about this class, and you aren't even taking the time to find out the facts before you open your trap and spew out nonsense on the subject.

[Jooji]

You still obviously havn't done your homework, nor have you read anything I have posted here in response to this thread. You obviously know nothing about this class, and you aren't even taking the time to find out the facts before you open your trap and spew out nonsense on the subject.

 

He hasn't played the game, or he's a fresh 50 who thinks he should be able to wreck geared healers. I've already told him it's a L2P issue but he isn't willing to accept the truth.

[Ashes_Arizona]

This is a L2P issue whether you like it or not. And you need to be geared to take down a geared healer.

 

I've dueled the better players from my guild and gotten wrecked. I've seen certain(very few) imperials wreck me 1v1.

 

The majority don't have the skill or gear. It's that simple.

 

I have Champ gear, BM is taking a bit to get into, I have skill and I know my spec and how to play it.

 

Its not an L2P issue. Its a lack of point of failure issue.

 

Again its a "team game" and all that. But I have to bring out the 1 v 1 argument here.

 

1 v 1 I have pre-designed critical points of failure where I've done everything I can do and someones going to kill me. I'm not automatically a bad because I don't have the ability to exceed these designed points of failure.

 

Healers in a 1 v 1 situation have a much higher threshold failure point because they can literally heal through everything I've got or anyone has til we've exceeded our point of failure. Are these healers BM geared? In many cases yes, but the gap between Champ and BM should not be that large a difference.

 

As I've stated before I've literally had JC Seer's IGNORE ME as if I'm not a threat, when I'm throwing out enough damage to wreck any other class. I commonly get Demolisher and Paladin medals on my BH AP, if you don't know what those medals are, then maybe I'm not the bad here.

 

And yet JC Seers can just ignore me, when I'm commonly getting awarded medals for doing more than 2.5k damage in a single hit? And thats alright cause I need to L2P? Do you even know what it takes in regards to understanding your gear focus well enough to get 2.5k single hit crits out of a TANK AC?

 

Yeah I need to L2P apparently. Seems all the stuff I thought I knew is entirely wrong, and those silly PvP medals aren't an indicator of any level of skill or understanding of my class.

[Daqu]

1v1 a healer should be able to heal 100% of incoming damage. Working as intended.

 

A heals that is only healing himself should not be at risk of dying, since, you are not at risk of dying either. If the heals starts to DPS they risk wasting their resources and not being able to keep their heals up to match your damage output. They can try to cheese you down slowly, in which case you should definitely be able to avoid a death, but going all out will definitely end up in a loss due to lack of resources. A heals that can stand 1v1 against you by out-healing your solo DPS is no better and no worse than you are. Teamplay, mate.

[Eronenris]

I hate to even really bring this up cause I love good healers as much as anyone else, and I don't want to see them not in PvP.

 

But its just sickeningly obvious especially in the 50 bracket that Healers are the alpha class in TOR PvP.

 

I realize that healers are dealing with a 30% healing reduction in PvP, but when I can double stun a Jedi Consular in a fire pit in Huttball and they can pop their bubble and heal through and somehow survive me, the fire and anything else and keep going, HPS in is heavily outweighing DPS out.

 

And its not just JC's but JC:Sage and SI:Sorceror have a double benefit of pretty much their secondary focus statistics, power and alacrity literally benefit everything they do, their DPS, their HPS, their survivability with their defensive abilities....its really rather insane.

 

Its not just the force users either. Healers in general are far tougher than they really should be. I'm not saying healers should be a speed bump but what exactly is the point of being a DPS class at all if you can be a DPS/Healer/Tank?

 

Back a long long time ago, there was a term coined in RPG's called the "Tank Mage" which was a completely overpowered class combination, well TOR, for lack of a better word has "Tank Sages" but pretty much it applies any class with heals.

 

People talk about Biochem being out of balance, but to be frank I don't see it, I'm 400 Biochem, my perma-medpack is a nice thing to have, but its literally a hail mary pass in regards to facing any geared class that heals.

 

BioWare you've got a really bad case of Tank Mages. Seriously.

 

 

i think this falls into that whole l2p your class category because i wreck healers by the time all 3 of my cc's wear off they are dead...(they are about to get a heal off, interupt...they are about to do another, stun...they are about to try it one more time, knockback) by the time all that goes down they are dead.

[Jooji]

Healers in a 1 v 1 situation have a much higher threshold failure point because they can literally heal through everything I've got or anyone has til we've exceeded our point of failure. Are these healers BM geared? In many cases yes, but the gap between Champ and BM should not be that large a difference.

It isn't a large difference. It's a 4 ilvl difference per piece, iirc 7 expertise extra per BM piece? Most BM's aren't in full BM gear yet so you're only talking a 50 expertise difference for most.

 

And yet JC Seers can just ignore me, when I'm commonly getting awarded medals for doing more than 2.5k damage in a single hit? And thats alright cause I need to L2P? Do you even know what it takes in regards to understanding your gear focus well enough to get 2.5k single hit crits out of a TANK AC?

Wait, wait, wait. You're a tank and you think you should be able to solo a healer? That's ludicrous. Your strengths are taking damage and supporting a team through mitigating the other team's damage. I've seen a couple real good BH tanks kill me but that's just because of their obscene amount of control(6-sec interrupt, 2 stuns, pull, etc).

 

Yeah I need to L2P apparently. Seems all the stuff I thought I knew is entirely wrong, and those silly PvP medals aren't an indicator of any level of skill or understanding of my class.

So you're basing your skill on your ability to get broken medals as a tank?

 

Anyone else want to chime in here and tell him what I'm thinking?

Edited February 8, 2012 by Jooji