SWTOR: Theme-park MMO design. End of the road?

[Arigo]

Totally agree with the OP.

 

Theme-park MMO's are flash in the pans now. Every one of them attempting to grab at least a portion of WoW's subscriber base by grabbing a couple of rides - kiddie-track rollercoaster ride quests and PvP funhouses.

Unfortunately, they've all decreased the leveling curve to WoW's current state but they all fail to include needed content to keep players interested past the week it takes them to hit the end of the ride. 2 rides do not an Adventure Park make.

 

I completely agree a hybrid-model is the way to go. If any developer would actually read the forums of all the (failed) "WoW-killers" released over the past few years, it would be glaringly obvious. Pleas for sandbox elements are everywhere. Without them, these games last a few months and then dwindle away.

 

 

I really miss simply being able to pick a direction and start running and being completely engrossed in the game as I travel. Nowadays the player is led by the nose everywhere and spoon fed the game and every players experience is pretty much identical.

 

Yes.

 

They've gone after the broadest possible gamer market for years now, and it's only bred a general subscriber with shorter and shorter attention spans.

 

Exactly

 

 

Developers lay down the tracks and bare-bones the rest of the game.

Give us some MEAT!

[LizardSF]

 

I'm not going to disagree that in EVE there is this exponential curve instead of a straight line. The big factor that changes in EVE is that other players can make such a difference that your own game experience changes, whether it's prices on the market or someone blowing up half your POSes. That's a major distinction because it has a sandbox; the actual activities remain the same, but you can end up reprioritising them based upon others' actions. That I feel TOR is definitely lacking in some way, even abstract.

 

Let me offer a counterpoint: I don't pay 15.00/month to be someone else's *****. (And before you respond, "Well, make someone your *****, then!", consider: a)Why is THAT person going to keep playing? b)90% of the players aren't in the top 10%. Really. Do the math. The bottom is always going to be a lot larger than the top -- but the bottom and the top pay the same amount each month.)

 

There's a very delicate tipping point in the "equation of fun" between "the unexpected impact of player actions increases fun by increasing uncertainty, therefore increasing the chances of endorphin release due to unexpected events" (the more times an action is repeated, the less likely your brain is to reward you for it with endorphins; this is why things "stop being fun"), and "the frustration of player actions stymieing all attempts to engage in your own action, or constraining your actions to a limited sphere".

 

EVE generally treads a very narrow line, and by definition appeals to a niche. Any game which wants to appeal to the same niche has to answer the question, "Why am I playing this, and not EVE?" Many of the problems that apply to theme parks apply to any new sandbox -- the market leader has had years to develop and perfect content. Even WORSE, being committed to a sandbox game means you can't go off and then come back a few months later and expect things to be the same. With WoW, barring large expansions, if you leave and then come back, the same quests will be in the same place waiting for you to do them. In a sandbox, if you leave for a few months, the entire economic and political landscape may have shifted.

 

A lot of what makes EVE work can't be easily translated to other environments/genres, for reasons that have been discussed in endless detail elsewhere. "EVE, but with orcs!" or "EVE, but with lightsabers!", really isn't as viable as some people think.

 

A theoretically ideal game design has a theme park in a sandbox.. you can wander away from the park if you wish, or come back, and both are equally developed and well maintained. However, doing that requires, in essence, double the resources of a game that is either one, and constant conflicts over how to allocate those resources and how to make game systems that transition smoothly.

[Nautius]

Nice post!

 

Many of us wanted a pre-NGE SWG. It was known that was most likely not going to happen.

 

But it was truly a marvel of it's time.

 

It wouldn't be such a bad idea to just make post 50 based on an SWG template.

 

• You leveled your profession, you can train into others if you want. Not only that, but you could choose a primary and secondary class. Now THAT would shake up the end game PvP!
   
  
• Player Housing.
   
  
• Your crafting profession would allow you to create items that would be NECESSARY for other players to accomplish different aspects of the game (ie - you have to have certain stims to wear certain armor)
   
  
• Set up storefronts with vendors
   
  
• New professions (dancer, politician, etc)
  

 

It would be nice.

 

/sigh

 

Miss the good ole days.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Nautius

[Zeppelin]

The future is dynamically generated content, aka Guild Wars 2.

[ActionPrinny]

To re-iterate: I'm not one to demand everything be perfect at game launch. No matter how much research you do looking to the rest of the industry for examples of success and failure, there is just no way to finely-tune an MMO right at release. It's always a WIP. End-game content will always be rather limited at release. (Although I feel what's available atm is adequate)

 

I feel SWTOR's current failing is, as I said before, lack of guidance for post-50 content. In today's MMO market you NEED to release a relatively bug-free game, with adequate grouping tools, and have consistent content "in the pipe" right away. (Rift is a good example of keeping up with content release)

 

I think SWTOR is fine on the bug front and the content seems to be coming. But the grouping tools are lacking, and things like crafting are pretty much an irrelevant waste of time. Moddable equipment makes crafting individual pieces not worth the effort. (Along with outleveling the gear in less time than it takes to skill up to gather the materials) And with how questing and commendations gives you all the modifications you need, not even Cybertech is worth it in the long-run.

 

My philosophy on SWTOR so far is the same thing that I said before the game launched:

There is some great storytelling at work with a lot of the class quests. I'm going to go through 2-3 of the class stories and treat it more or less like I'm playing KOTOR3. If I un-sub after 3-4 months, so be it. I think I got plenty of value from my $60 and a few months subscription. But I'm hoping that Bioware will provide more cohesive reasons for me to stick around. Or at least come back after a few months break.

 

 

Honestly, it may seem harsh but -- if it's now economically unfeasible to provide the level of gratification and polish people expect at release for an MMO these days, it would be better to just not even go ahead with the project IMHO. And don't get me wrong, a lot of people DO have unrealistic and ridiculous expectations. But such is the nature of The Beast.

Edited February 7, 2012 by ActionPrinny

[MefuneAkira]

If Bioware really wants SWTOR to succeed they need to first and foremost, provide more cohesive guidance on how to proceed at L50, but then also add in sandbox elements to give players ways to spend their time between patches. Player housing, a total revamp of the crafting system for a more meaningful meta-game, etc. Heck I think an amazing thing would be an EVE-like space part of the game that you could explore and carve out your own little niche, except far less ruthless than EVE, of course.

(Quality of life and Guidance issues I'll address in a separate thread)

 

This or its game over boring.

Edited February 7, 2012 by MefuneAkira

[supertouch]

people believe games that are more casual-friendly and have instances are more sophisticated, but the truth is the genre has pretty much seen nothing more than the evolution of accessibility and convenience. developers gradually abandon designs that make older games worthwhile in order to attract more casual players and "non-gamers." even wow's raid system suffered from this long after the game's success had been established.

 

a game like everquest may have had its flaws and an "archaic" blueprint, but it provided social elements that you can't find in other games.

[Dekadez]

I actually enjoyed reading this. Criticism backed by a developed opinion.

 

I like that.

[Grady]

Very well written but nothing new.

[Grammarye]

Let me offer a counterpoint: I don't pay 15.00/month to be someone else's *****.

 

<snip>

Well there's a scary coincidence. I was just reading, for the second time in the last few years, your article on 'Why Haven’t They Fixed This Bug?' - good stuff, eerily reminiscent of my day job.

 

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I think your counterpoint is a good one, but possibly put the emphasis too much on copying EVE. I don't think TOR ought to copy EVE any more than it ought to copy WoW. My point about one player's actions impacting those of another was more along the lines of needing some form of mutable world. I recall in TOR beta suggesting that they give us a front line of sorts where space combat & PvP and various other things all feed into this notional 'world impact' - and that's just a ripoff of what GuildWars Factions did. I think there's lots of potential ways to introduce quick & simple carrots that when seen in the cold light of day by themselves might seem fake or trivial, but as part of an integral world will convince people to go do stuff.

 

After all, CCP managed to convince 300k people that mining with a 3 minute cooldown is a critical underpinning of the economy & a vital activity that only occasionally gets visited by Goonswarm, instead of being more boring than watching paint dry.

 

I don't think TOR would do well in picking up the harsh cruel world of EVE any more than the current TOR world PvP which has every sign of being tacked on in the thirty days before launch - but I do think TOR could have elements of activity that change the world in some meaningful way & get people responding to that.

[DarthKhaos]

~SNIP~

The other significant issue is that innovation is generally received badly. Witness the outcry in various games by a generation that have played WoW and its ilk for so long that they genuinely cannot operate in a different environment. There are real Pavlovian conditions at work here. Game developers ignore that conditioning at their peril, whether we like it or not. That doesn't mean don't innovate, but it means innovate within a space that is going to be accessible to the majority of your target audience, even if that means sacrificing some innovation for familiarity.

 

~SNIP~

 

The argument that says 'players create the content' has missed that there is no content. The correct phrase is 'players convince themselves it's worth the time to do X'. That's not wrong, but it's important to understand the carrots & sticks in this design; to understand what drives people. In most cases that drive is so varied that you cannot make a game that appeals to all drives.

Man I can't agree with you more on these 2 points. The highlighted section I experienced for a VERY brief period of time before my adaptability kicked in. I've been so used to seeing the chat box in the bottom left hand corner, my char health and stuff in the top right with the party right under it. When I started playing TOR the Chat window was invisible to me even when I made it stay up. Then in a short while I adapted and now my eye glances @ the chat window naturally like any other game. My brain remapped where to look for TOR and now there is no problem. I changed the channels to have different colors (Trade is money green, PvP is pure red, General a cream similar to WoW and left say as white) which made a huge difference in determining what channel stuff is coming in from easily.

 

As for the "Player made content" I have to chuckle cause players in TOR is complaining about making a party (they want it made for them) and you want THEM to create content? I hear about EvE Online and these Epic Battles and how this and that happened back in the day... But it doesn't happen now. Why? Because the players who organized it don't want to be bothered anymore or are content with the slice of pie they cut for themselves.

As the game goes on you end up seeing less and less player made content till there is none and the game stagnates.

[Cygnusxo]

Could not agree more.

 

As i already posted somewhere in theses threads, take the best out of SWG and put them in sw:tor = best MMO of all time:

 

Complexe crafting game (like swg) with stuff that are needed by players.

(not only combat oriented stuff, but fournitures, houses, cloths)

 

Open space exploration - combat

 

Player trainer - Loved this aspect of SWG where a higher lvl buddy in the wild can train you skills.

 

adding open planets where guild could establish a city.<very social> (could be attacked - pvp)

 

i could put more... but just with theses things.. i would be hooked for the next 2-3 years

[DarthKhaos]

There are innovative, sandbox MMORPGs out there right now-- you just don't play them.

This is so true it's funny. The majority of gamers just don't know what they want. They want innovation and something different but if it doesn't have A or B from game X or Y they say the game sucks. Games would come out trying something new and they would not tough it out with them while they iron out the wrinkles with the concept with player input. They quickly jump ship, that is if they even boarded in the first place.

 

They also don't want the best game they want the most popular.

Edited February 7, 2012 by DarthKhaos

[edgalor]

Congrats op

 

Gw2 will solve your problem. Dynamic event is going to be something that future mmos will copy in the near future.

[Marlaine]

While it would be fantastic to see a company take a risk, the ones that do seem to get smashed against the rocks.

 

Usually because their execution is poor and they can't find a middle ground. In their haste to be "anti-wow" they forget that parts of wow (or swtor for that matter) are enjoyable and would fit in well in a sandbox environment.

 

I agree with the OP that theme-park raid or die mmos are on their way out, and I just can't wait for an alternative. Let the raiders have their themeparks while the rest of us move on to a real mmo.

[Marlaine]

As i already posted somewhere in theses threads, take the best out of SWG and put them in sw:tor = best MMO of all time:

 

Nice. I've been saying the exact same thing (although substituting SWTOR with WOW) for years.

[supertouch]

i'm willing to bet an updated everquest that followed the original blueprint would attract over a million americans and would capture the asian market with enough server support.

[Urael]

To be honest I didn't read all the replies so if this was said I agree with those that said it.

 

The game we all really want is SWG PRE-CU with Jump to Light speed and the planets kashyyyk (but content with out the maze) and mustafar. Completely bug fixed and just left alone.

 

Great sand box.

 

Great open world pvp (at least on my server [intrepid-go go DLE foreva!])

 

Great community.

 

Great craftinig (could craft housing, droids, etc etc ) and econimic community (there were some real buisness tycoons!! (think UPS)).

 

Great community of Entertainers [Go Shayde agent to the stars!!! All the best talent worked for her!]

 

Great player created ingame content AND great support from the dev's for the ingame content! (remember the invation of sand people at groovefest?)

 

Loved that game, hated that game, was angry with that game, quit and resubbed a bunch of times and in the end sad to see it go.

 

There will never be another game like SWG for Starwars.

 

SWG R.I.P. you will be missed [ Pre-CU that is, the CU and NGE can burn!!! ]

[DarthKhaos]

Even for someone like me who does not even play EVE for more then 1-2h a day if im lucky.. im still playing the game after 7 years because i cant beat it.. and i know i cant... i can get rich and more powerful and more skilled... but in the end i know i cant "win"

One of my gripes with EvE Online is that how much I play is irrelevant except when it comes to how much money I make.

 

Why do I say that? Because how you gain skills. Someone playing 5 hrs and someone playing 5 mins will progress in skills at the same rate. For those who never played EvE Online and got that confused look on their faces let me explain. You get to only train one skill at a time on an account. Even if you have the max number of 3 characters on the account you can only train one skill for the entire account so the other characters you got can't gain skills. Also if you're on or not you are learning said skill. Now as you gain higher ranked skills the time it takes to learn the skill increases.

 

So if you and I both have a skill that takes 25 days to train, (real time) and you log in 5 hrs a day every day and play and I log in 5 mins a day and play at the end of the 25 days we both have the skill and I spent a whole lot less time in game. For the short period of time I played I wondered why am I logging in if I am not active in the progression of my character. But that was my gripe.

[Cygnusxo]

Nice. I've been saying the exact same thing (although substituting SWTOR with WOW) for years.

 

lol... yeah i brough these ideas too in WoW forums.. since BW copied wow so much...

 

If blizz would have impl. theses ideas, we would be playing the best MMO of all time now.

 

Shame on you Blizzard ;-)

[Mephismo]

Some of us haven't burned through anything yet.

Best you leave and play something else .

[Jjix]

MMOs these days don't have the epic feel of the old games. Whether it is because you level so quickly, or because the whole thing is choreographed 1-50, or because of the lack of sand box features (everything is missions/quests), or because most of the game is spent soloing . . . or even because PvE is so boring with the same old tired "Holy Trinity" style game play . . . I do not know. All I know is that ever since WoW the virtual persistent world awesomeness of the old MMOs has been fading and has progressively been replaced with (what I perceived to be the whiners' wet dream) a model where you basically are playing a single player game online with other people and occasionally group up, or socialize, or pvp to break the monotony.

 

Really, I miss those old games, deeply. Of course, I remember back in my SWG and DAoC days people complained the games weren't more like UO or AC . . . I guess I must sound to others like what those guys used to sound to me.

[wewter]

agree with OP - great post.

 

game is OK - but was budgeted to be AAA+

It's more of a AA-

 

Too bad it's star wars and has me sucked in until tera comes out. if that sucks, there's d3 and archeage. either way, unless endgame in swtor really picks up some steam, this game is not going to be fun long-term... easy to see that at least.

[Grammarye]

One of my gripes with EvE Online is that how much I play is irrelevant except when it comes to how much money I make.

 

Why do I say that? Because how you gain skills. Someone playing 5 hrs and someone playing 5 mins will progress in skills at the same rate. For those who never played EvE Online and got that confused look on their faces let me explain. You get to only train one skill at a time on an account. Even if you have the max number of 3 characters on the account you can only train one skill for the entire account so the other characters you got can't gain skills. Also if you're on or not you are learning said skill. Now as you gain higher ranked skills the time it takes to learn the skill increases.

 

So if you and I both have a skill that takes 25 days to train, (real time) and you log in 5 hrs a day every day and play and I log in 5 mins a day and play at the end of the 25 days we both have the skill and I spent a whole lot less time in game. For the short period of time I played I wondered why am I logging in if I am not active in the progression of my character. But that was my gripe.

Skill in EVE has nothing to do with skills trained. It only provides more capabilities, more unlocks if you will. The clever design about EVE's skill training is that everyone always has the potential to be on par with everyone else, no matter how much they play. Perfect design for PvP.

[FilthyIlls]

Yes, another feedback post, but seeing as I'm a Compsci major, and my forte is project design and layout, I think it will be worthwhile to read...

 

Bioware has developed a very compelling game world. Many of the locations exhibit not only great beauty, but also are technically very challenging to design. Take a look at the sky/mountains on Alderaan, or the sky above Ilum, etc. And places like Nar Shadaa (And presumably Coruscant) are technically very challenging to accomplish without load screens at acceptable FPS, etc. The use of musical direction in setting the mood for areas, worlds, or quests is excellent. It's the only MMO I feel I can't play with the radio in the background or I won't get the proper effect.

 

SWTOR right now however, is suffering a "death by a thousand paper cuts" as it were, with regards to quality-of-life design issues, and the unguided state of post-50 content. There are myriad little design annoyances with the game that when compounded, have a sizable affect on peoples' perceptions of the game. Combine that with the sink-or-swim nature of content once you reach L50, and it's no wonder server populations are already dwindling.

 

Theme-park MMO designs have reached an untenable situation of exponential costs + ever-shorter leveling curves. The theme-park style of MMO has reached a point of oversaturation -- people burn through the leveling content in 5 days /played and expect more within weeks. IMHO the only way forward from here is to mix together elements of the Theme Park, with the Sandbox. Sandbox MMOs alone are too niche to be economically feasible or popular on a large scale. But having sandbox elements in a theme park design, would help subscribers weather the periods between content updates, and give them a reason to keep logging in. It would be the social hub that MMOs have been missing for quite some time.

 

MMOs in the past featured an extensive grind with few quests. My first character in EQ1 took 50 days /played to hit L50, for example. (18-20 days for WoW) But what current MMOs are missing is the social aspect of MMO gaming from the past -- sure you were grinding, but chatting with groupmates and those in the zone was just as important or moreso than leveling your character. This is one of the largest reasons the Korean market still prefers heavier grinds -- it's for the socializing. I think they need to lengthen out the leveling once more and tap more into the social aspects of MMOs. Social networking is so huge now -- why is it that Massively MULTIPLAYER games are such insular solo content these days?

 

If Bioware really wants SWTOR to succeed they need to first and foremost, provide more cohesive guidance on how to proceed at L50, but then also add in sandbox elements to give players ways to spend their time between patches. Player housing, a total revamp of the crafting system for a more meaningful meta-game, etc. Heck I think an amazing thing would be an EVE-like space part of the game that you could explore and carve out your own little niche, except far less ruthless than EVE, of course.

(Quality of life and Guidance issues I'll address in a separate thread)

 

I wouldn't look at any of the skydomes in this game and say they exhibit great beauty or design. Honestly they all look pretty bad.