Saelos Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 It's a good point. Of course I could turn that around and say aren't the Jedi, by distancing themselves from emotion and emotional attachment, making themselves into dispassionate automatons. Yes I guess it depends on how you want to approach a problem. Do you want to use reason and rational thought to resolve the problem or base decisions on how you feel. Humans have a cognitive cortex for a reason I believe, and emotions are just so primal. lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temeluchus Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I think arguing that an animal eating something for hunger is equivalent of peace is wrong. My definition of peace is when we don't wage war with each other. I wouldn't call a wolf hunting it's prey war. However, to say that animals don't play with their food is completely wrong. Orca are well known for this as are a number of other animals. But they call this 'play'. I have a PhD in animal behaviour and evolution. Natural selection is not kind and definitely gets rid of the weak and sick. However, it also promotes altruism among animals that live in groups. Social animals will do better, and do, if they show more altruistic behaviours towards their fellow comrades. This is very anit-Empire I think. So its not as simple as saying natural selection is survival of the fittest and leave it at that. My two cents. ps- my reply was also to the person you quoted so Im not arguing against you in all points. Nice post. The animal example wasn't the best but it did illustrate the point quickly(or so I thought). I guess it all comes down to your definition of peace. Mine differs from yours in that it isn't as simple as a lack of war, it also includes no violent behavior and the harmony and interpersonal relationships of those involved. So,while an animal eating another to survive isn't murder or wrong, it is by definition violent behavior and not in accordance with peace. Apply that to anything you see in nature,from the largest to the smallest,plant to animal etc and it's apparent that peace is not a natural concept. Mother Nature herself and things associated with her like winter,storms,carnivores illustrate that. They do have positive effects and balance out the negative like the one poster was saying, but they don't embody peace in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brimmer Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 1.) Imperials are people who do "evil" for what they believe is good. 2.) Sith do evil because they enjoy it / think they are better than everything and everybody 3.) Sith use the dark side of the force - which is about destruction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravshar Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) Your examples of there only being evil Sith, good dark jedi, and the Sith not allowing a "good" acolyte to graduate are off as well. You say Sith must train a Sith, and this is true, but your examples would only apply in the Rule of Two Sith. No. Sith follow a specific belief system that they teach to their own. Plenty of non-affiliated force users out there, but like I said, those are generaly reffered to as dark jedi. No one just wakes up one day and decides they are Sith, they are either born into it or taught by another Sith. Some have been taught by spirits of long dead Sith, but they were still taught by Sith. What I said about a "good" acolyte was that they wouldn't *knowingly* let one graduate. And no teacher would want to be known for passing weak students (the Sith see goodness as being weak), for fear they'd be slaughtered themselves if nothing else. Also while dark side force users can draw on positive emotions, Sith society itself frowns on using those, especialy love which is often seen as a vulnerability. A dark jedi might not have an issue with it, but Sith see it as a weakness. As for the code. The Sith were a race, that had their own evil mini-empire before the jedi ever came around. 12 dark jedi (exiles from the Hundred-Yeaar Darkness) came and took over that empire. They became the dark lords of the sith or Darths. It was one of these dark jedi exiles that was acredited with writing the Sith code. It was written to blend with Sith (the race) tradition to help the darths teach and maintain their control over their new empire. Also, the original question wasn't about the empire, just the Sith. I am sure tha there are branches of the empire that are not evil. However, the OP was talking about the Sith order. That order is undoubtedly evil. Edited March 8, 2012 by Ravshar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzaz Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Selfishness = Evil Selflessness = Good Jedi = Good = Selfless Sith = Evil = Selfish In theory that's correct, but the problem is the "humanity" wrench that gets thrown in there. People are flawed and incapable of being fully good. Trying leads to frustration, then fear, then anger, then hate, then the dark side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhentarion Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Some are evil some are Not it all come down to If you fully give your self to The Dark side or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlfiereDBC Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 (edited) Darwinism's definition was not originally the "survival of the fittest", but it's evolved into it. Some famous scientist coined the phrase when talking about Darwinism and it's stuck and evolved into it. Don't believe me, look it up. The survival of the fittest as you are describing it is simply a suprematist theory. As wikipedia can tell you, the word "darwinism" can mean a lot of things; however, in darwinism being "fit" has nothing to do with being stronger. It is fit the species that survive. A wolf and a rabbit are both fit because they survived through the centuries. A rabbit is more fit than a caspian tiger, simply because the latter is gone since 1970s. Saying Sith are one dimensional evil leads me to believe you haven't rolled a Imperial toon, rarely read EU books and napped during Anakin's transformation into Vader, his motivations for doing so and so forth. My main is a dark side sith jugg. It is clear, and I fail to understand why nobody wants to say it, that the sith empire is basically a fascist dictatorship. Slavery, racial supremacy, genocide, non-conventional warfare. Darth Vader himself blew up a planet killing billions. What I do understand is the major damage the expanded universe made to the SW lore. In the movies, the only thing that matters to me, the Sith are one-dimensional evil. When Anaking redeemed himself he "stopped" being a sith ("return of the jedi", eh). The only Sith that seem "normal" are the revanites. But "imperial" Sith are monsters, and you can tell that from every single sith-involving quest in the game. Yes, you can have a "light side sith" (rotfl), but then it's better to defect like Elara Dorne did. If you still want to support an organization involved in slavery, genocide, go on, but don't go around telling that you're good. Anakin was manipuled into his transformation, and his motivations lost when he killed the children (why he did it? Because he became evil, simply). Edited March 9, 2012 by AlfiereDBC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HosDarkstar Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 (edited) You all Have Forgotten one key momment on the Mustafar, Obi Wan basicly says Anikin you are turning into the very evil you swore to protect the republic from, Palpatine is Evil and Corrupted you. Anikin says from my point of view the Jedi are evil. One uses their emotions to bend the will of the Force to their desires, the other uses their will to work with the Force. However, I notcied a flaw with star wars eposiode 4 when one of the imps said something about his sossorer ways to Vader (sorry about miss spelliongs), and he started force choking him. Then the Moft Imp tells him that is enough and Vader says as you wish. Now if the sith was truely evil wouldn't he kill both of them one for doubting the power of the dark side of the force and the other for enterfering. Plus Vader didn't blow up Alderian Moft whats name did. Why would a sith blow up a planet full of darkside power don't make since. Any way I just figured I would give my 2 cents in, oh one more thought the Sith native people to Korr where already strong in the darkside before the dark jedi arrived, and so they didn't kill each other off, so not truely evil, becuase in my opinion truely evil is destroying things just to destroy. Look at Darth Reven he didn't destroy ever thing. Edited March 9, 2012 by HosDarkstar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlfiereDBC Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 You all Have Forgotten one key momment on the Mustafar, Obi Wan basicly says Anikin you are turning into the very evil you swore to protect the republic from, Palpatine is Evil and Corrupted you. Anikin says from my point of view the Jedi are evil. This only shows that Anakin is a moron. I think Lucas made things clear by letting Anakin kill the children. It doesn't matter the point of view, that killing was grauitous and cruel, it was so extreme so nobody can justify it, no matter what Ani's intentions were. Turning back to SWTOR I'd like to ask you people to name me at least a sith npc who can be considered "good". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temeluchus Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 (edited) This only shows that Anakin is a moron. I think Lucas made things clear by letting Anakin kill the children. It doesn't matter the point of view, that killing was grauitous and cruel, it was so extreme so nobody can justify it, no matter what Ani's intentions were. Turning back to SWTOR I'd like to ask you people to name me at least a sith npc who can be considered "good". For being a Sith in ideology and in race, Darth Vowrawn doesn't seem to be the typical batsh*t crazy or muhahahahaha evil at all. We don't know much about him so I wouldn't label him "good" but I wouldn't label him "evil" either. He does thank you for not killing his bodyguards,which is odd for a Sith especially a Council member, and goes out of his way to help the SW against Baras. I'm not sure if he thanks you because he actually cares about his men or the fact that he would have had no protection if you did and his reasons for helping the SW seem to be because he despises Baras for trying to usurp power from the Emperor. Still, not typical Sith nor evil behavior. As for your comments on Darwinsim,evolution and the "survival of the fittest" connection, it isn't as simple as that. The wolf and rabbit you describe,through natural selection, males and females with beneficial genetics and/or adaptations breeding, inferior genetic material or adaptations dying off led to the survival of both. Therefore the strong(in genetics,adaptations,instincts,and physically) survived and ensured the strength of future generations. Survival of the fittest. Evolution and Darwinism was probably another bad example, as evolutionary theory has fundamental flaws that even Darwin worried about and couldn't figure out. Also,imho, calling the Sith Empire a fascist dictatorship is a bit off; it's more of a mix of a meritocracy,stratocracy, with some theocracy(if we apply the Force as the deity),fascism sprinkled in and a nice heaping of social darwinism. Edited March 9, 2012 by Temeluchus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejadavidson Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Interesting conversation. I always believe that, for the most part, good or evil depended on what side you're looking out from. I kinda waffled back and forth until I got to Taris with my sith inquisitor, a definitly light-side sith. More and more I find myself turning down quests because they're just pure evil, but even more so on Taris. And Darth Whats=his-face, I just want to tell him to take a flying leap into the toxic lake. But then I get this Taris quest that is just pure evil: go poison water so you kill not only republic forces but also any colonists who drink from that water source. I turned it down. It just doesn't seem like something my sith would do. On Dromond Kas you realize that there are just regular people going about their business tyring to make a living, and I'm sure that there are imperial officers, like the one I meet with my jedi on Hoth, that are honorable. But I've noticed that the sith just like to kill each other off and as an inquisitor I seem to be playing them off against one another. I make a really horrible sith. I can't even be evil in a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistols Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I am Drolhtis, Sith Lord of all teachings of the darkness, and head master of all the Sith. I have mastered the arts of kung-joodoo and can tell you we are indeed very evil. I have over 246 padawans currently, and they will tell you, that havoc reigns through our blood. Poshana koralta! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undeadsithdread Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I am Drolhtis, Sith Lord of all teachings of the darkness, and head master of all the Sith. I have mastered the arts of kung-joodoo and can tell you we are indeed very evil. I have over 246 padawans currently, and they will tell you, that havoc reigns through our blood. Poshana koralta! you have 246 apprentices. sir,you have sealed your fate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arraegath Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 The sith empire, and a lot of the ways in which the Sith deal with things are very close to National socialist beliefs. -There are to be no parasites in their society -Everyone must work towards bettering the state/empire -Those too weak to fend for themselves, or be of any use are disposed of -Dissenters are killed. -Near worship of a figurehead/leader. It is not surprise that the Sith resemble the Nazis in a lot of ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivance Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 True, though it starts with "Peace is a lie" so it stands to reason they'd prefer perpetual war. I don't believe that all Sith are evil, especially in this time-line, but at the very least, most seem self-centered and only concerned with their own goals and ambitions. Which would not make them all that different than people we know in real life. I'd say the difference is what they are willing to do to meet there goals -- murder, steal, destroy? It's talking about inner, emotional peace. Not absence of war peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Corth_ Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 To be sith is to follow the darkside Lucas always intended the darkside of the force to be evil and corrupting. NO ambiguity. Why no ambiguity? because he has said himself that his story was about the fall of a man and later his redemption. To work, there could not be any ambiguity about what the darkside was. this is why star wars is a powerful story - yet not that complex. i am tired of all the arguments that darkside is just about embracing emotion. no it isn't. it was always intended to be evil. no debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shankspeare Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Your not gonna like this but im gonig to disagree. In all the story line is it about embracing emotion and using that against your enemy! Just because you fight with anger and hate doesent make you evil. Yes I know its a broad argument but because the DS is greedy and power hungry. The story is based on Sith revenge for being driven out by the light side. Whos more wrong the Sith for acting on there hatred for the Jedi or the Jedi for forcing them from there home in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myolinyr Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 the sith as a whole are evil. the actions they promote and encourage are by no means good for anybody but themselves. if you want to use the jedi as a counterpoint, yes the jedi pull dick moves every now and again but more likely than not, it's to benefit a large group of people. you can also argue about "natural balance" and other nonsense but really, sentient beings are above the laws of nature. we have the ability to counter nature with critical thinking and reasoning. the mere fact that people keep arguing this point if proof that we are beyond (or should be) animals in the way we conduct ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlfiereDBC Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 (edited) For being a Sith in ideology and in race, Darth Vowrawn doesn't seem to be the typical batsh*t crazy or muhahahahaha evil at all. We don't know much about him so I wouldn't label him "good" but I wouldn't label him "evil" either. He still make a racist comment if you're a pureblood (he says that at least he'll be killed by someone with a pure blood). However, just one Sith in the whole empire? I also thought about the Darth of Taris, however he accepts your light side choices cause they give empire tactical advantage. You played the warrior, so you know about Jaesa crusade against light side sith. I still insist that talking about good sith is a contradiction in terms.. The wolf and rabbit you describe,through natural selection, males and females with beneficial genetics and/or adaptations breeding, inferior genetic material or adaptations dying off led to the survival of both. Therefore the strong(in genetics,adaptations,instincts,and physically) survived and ensured the strength of future generations. Survival of the fittest. Still the rabbit is "strong": the fact that a wolf can easily kill it doesn't prove anything. Nothing prove that the Pureblood are better than other races (its quite the opposite considering that they're exinct), they are simply in command and pretend to be the best. Also, "survival of the fittest" from wikipedia: "An interpretation of the phrase "survival of the fittest" to mean "only the fittest organisms will prevail" (a view sometimes derided as "Social Darwinism") is not consistent with the actual theory of evolution. Any individual organism which succeeds in reproducing itself is "fit" and will contribute to survival of its species, not just the "physically fittest" ones, though some of the population will be better adapted to the circumstances than others. A more accurate characterization of evolution would be "survival of the fit enough". And ""Fitness" does not refer to whether an individual is "physically fit" – bigger, faster or stronger – or "better" in any subjective sense. It refers to a difference in reproductive rate from one generation to the next". Edited March 10, 2012 by AlfiereDBC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Corth_ Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Your not gonna like this but im gonig to disagree. In all the story line is it about embracing emotion and using that against your enemy! Just because you fight with anger and hate doesent make you evil. Yes I know its a broad argument but because the DS is greedy and power hungry. The story is based on Sith revenge for being driven out by the light side. Whos more wrong the Sith for acting on there hatred for the Jedi or the Jedi for forcing them from there home in the first place. You are still making the "the darkside is only about embracing emotion" argument. I don't disagree with most of what you said. But my point includes your observations at a lower level. Above the using emotion and above the whole fighting back against jedi is the fact that darkside is a corrupting and evil force. Everyone who embraces the darkside is "evil" as defined similarly amongst most people. doesn't matter if any of them have legitimate complaints. doesnt matter if any of them kill in self defense. doesn't matter if any of them want to fight the war to end it. The sith are supposed to be evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellvaan Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Greetings everyone! We want to thank you for keeping this thread on-topic and constructive! Just a friendly reminder as we are seeing some references to real-life analogies and we know in this type of discussion it can be easy to do so; due to the volatile nature of discussion regarding real-life morality, religious, and political discussion, we do not allow them on the forums. Please keep all analogies and references to the above as it relates to the Star Wars Universe. Thank you for your understanding and we look forward to everyone's contribution to this discussion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temeluchus Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 He still make a racist comment if you're a pureblood (he says that at least he'll be killed by someone with a pure blood). However, just one Sith in the whole empire? I also thought about the Darth of Taris, however he accepts your light side choices cause they give empire tactical advantage. You played the warrior, so you know about Jaesa crusade against light side sith. I still insist that talking about good sith is a contradiction in terms.. <Snip,Snip>". Well, you only asked for one,lol. That's all I could think of at the moment. I'm not sure if I'll be able to find another,but I'll look. I wouldn't consider Vowrawn's comment as racist though, it's more of a preference that he be killed by one of his own. Now if he had said "Oh great, a dirty,smelly Zabrak is going to kill me" that would be racist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brimmer Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Lets look at the facts of the force: Light: Creation Darkness: Destruction ------------------------------------ When Sith are around they destroy everything for their own gains; they care little about what their actions cause upon others; they're just too corrupted by their power. ------------------------------------ It's possible to "tap" into the dark side for "good" - Like mace Windu but the majority get corrupted by their emotions and become dark jedi - serving their emotions such as rage taking destruction upon the galaxy. Over all the Sith are just evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlfiereDBC Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Well, you only asked for one,lol. That's all I could think of at the moment. I'm not sure if I'll be able to find another,but I'll look. I wouldn't consider Vowrawn's comment as racist though, it's more of a preference that he be killed by one of his own. Now if he had said "Oh great, a dirty,smelly Zabrak is going to kill me" that would be racist. We have to roll a non-human non-pureblood toon to check it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cordarn Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 The Empire, however, is not. Merely a collective of war-focused peoples. In other words, he means that they are another sparta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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