Are Sith really evil?

[Ravshar]

Like it or not the Jedi and Sith are both pawns in a political chess game. Though the Force flows and permeates through everything. Those who can actually manipulate it – on the galactic scale- are few and rare. The Empire and the Republic political machines have created the light/dark paradigm as a means to control and exploit these gifted people to their own political agenda. Doing good or evil is a matter of perspective and individual choice.

 

Wrong. The empire/republic did not create light/dark. The force users of Tython did that.

 

 

I have to disagree with the people refering to good/evil as a point of view or perspective in this case as well. The Sith are meant to be evil. Their inventors took all of the despicable and despised traits of humanity and wrapped them up into one entity... the Sith. They are written so that there is something in the Sith that every community (be it geographical, political, or faith-based) can refer to as Evil.

 

While I am sure there are some individuals out there that can say the Sith are not evil. I can't think of any communities that would agree with that individual.

[BrainSplatter]

Wrong. The empire/republic did not create light/dark. The force users of Tython did that.

 

 

I have to disagree with the people refering to good/evil as a point of view or perspective in this case as well. The Sith are meant to be evil. Their inventors took all of the despicable and despised traits of humanity and wrapped them up into one entity... the Sith. They are written so that there is something in the Sith that every community (be it geographical, political, or faith-based) can refer to as Evil.

 

While I am sure there are some individuals out there that can say the Sith are not evil. I can't think of any communities that would agree with that individual.

 

I agree... they are 'evil' by practically any real life definition of the word. If they're not evil, I don't know what is.

[Lothol]

This isnt a WoW type of game, with two ambiguous morally grey sides fighting. Don't try and make it that way. One side is most decidedly "evil". Yes the republic isnt perfect, but no form of government is. They are striving to be just and morally right in a system that can at times be corrupted by corrupt people, a democracy. The sith are Might Makes Right. If people find it difficult to play an "evil" side but still want to be the "cool" side, thats fine. Just dont try and muddy the waters here, they are the evil ones.

[Sirrurg]

No, they are just emo all the time, beacuse nobody wanted to play with them when they were kids.

[Sneakycheeks]

Loads of misconceptions in this thread.

 

Yes, the sith are evil. Their ideology is evil. You can't throw a debate as to what is truly good or evil into this, because Star Wars has clearly defined good and evil, not mere philosophical concepts. The sith and everything about them is evil.

 

No, you can't channel the dark side using positive emotions. You can't use love and compassion as a sith. The dark side fosters negative emotions, and is fueled by them. Force Lightning is pure hatred given destructive form, and it can only be channeled with hatred. Attempting to use the dark side will ultimately cause you to be ruled by negative emotions.

 

The concept that sith can embrace positive emotions is born from the thought that jedi seek to suppress all emotions. Jedi do not seek to become emotionless, they seek to keep their emotions from guiding them, to think with a level head. Jedi still have positive emotions. They still experience love and friendship, they still know happiness and compassion. The goal of the jedi ideology is to prevent those emotions from ruling you.

 

Edit:Also, the light-sided merciful sith that we can play in TOR technically should not be possible.

 

I don't entirely agree with you. After all if all you said was true..then there wouldn't be such a thing as a Grey Jedi. Which is a Jedi that can use abilites from both sides..but isn't completely a Jedi..and isn't courrpted by the Dark side. Look at Mace Wendu...he was a Jedi who was able to use force lighting..a power that's accsoiated with the Sith..not to menton the light saber style that Mace used is one that's pretty much conisdered a Dark side style..yet he was a member of the Jedi Council. I don't disagree that the majority of Sith tend to go towards the more evil side...but that's only because they allow the Dark side to full courrpt them.

[Sneakycheeks]

Didn't Mace Windu, a light side Jedi council member, use a dark side fighting stance? Your binary views on morality are naive, nothing is simply good or evil. The fact that you can't see the star wars universe as something to be explored and thought about means you should probly never have picked up the game in the first place. Watch the movies, read the books, don't pick an interactive medium if you aren't ready to have people contribute to it.

 

Indeed he did. Not only did Mace Windu use a dark style fighting stance..but he could also use force lighting.

[Temeluchus]

True, though it starts with "Peace is a lie" so it stands to reason they'd prefer perpetual war.

 

I don't believe that all Sith are evil, especially in this time-line, but at the very least, most seem self-centered and only concerned with their own goals and ambitions. Which would not make them all that different than people we know in real life. I'd say the difference is what they are willing to do to meet there goals -- murder, steal, destroy?

 

The line "Peace is a lie" in the Sith Code is just that, peace is a lie. Nature abhors peace, put a pack of wolves in a flock of sheep and watch what happens. I bet you the wolves don't sit there hanging out with the sheep,sipping tea and painting landscapes.

 

The Sith are smart enough to realize that peace fundamentally goes against the various species' natures as well as nature itself.

 

It's the Jedi who project their views of peace on everything and are going against the natural order of things.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Temeluchus

[ikinai]

The line "Peace is a lie" in the Sith Code is just that, peace is a lie. Nature abhors peace, put a pack of wolves in a flock of sheep and watch what happens. I bet you the wolves don't sit there hanging out with the sheep,sipping tea and painting landscapes.

 

The Sith are smart enough to realize that peace fundamentally goes against the various species' natures as well as nature itself.

 

It's the Jedi who project their views of peace on everything and are going against the natural order of things.

 

Actually, nature is about balance, something the sith do not understand. The sith would eradicate the light side, thereby destroying balance and the natural order of the galaxy. Whereas the jedi don't actually want to destroy the sith, but put things in balance, they understand far more the importance of balance.

 

In your example, if the sheep were naturally born they would naturally run from the wolves, it's only when domesticated or otherwise enslaved in some fashion that the sheep wouldn't do the natural thing. Which of course by dropping wolves into your flock of sheep you yourself have gone against nature by upsetting the balance. Whereas if you had left the wolves alone there would have been peace between the sheep and wolves without your intervention. So, it's only when you try to bend nature to your will that peace becomes a lie. Which means that the sith code is nothing more than a self fulfilling prophecy.

Edited March 6, 2012 by ikinai

[Temeluchus]

Actually, nature is about balance, something the sith do not understand. The sith would eradicate the light side, thereby destroying balance and the natural order of the galaxy. Whereas the jedi don't actually want to destroy the sith, but put things in balance, they understand far more the importance of balance.

 

In your example, if the sheep were naturally born they would naturally run from the wolves, it's only when domesticated or otherwise enslaved in some fashion that the sheep wouldn't do the natural thing. Which of course by dropping wolves into your flock of sheep you yourself have gone against nature by upsetting the balance. Whereas if you had left the wolves alone there would have been peace between the sheep and wolves without your intervention. So, it's only when you try to bend nature to your will that peace becomes a lie. Which means tat the sith code is nothing more than a self fulfilling prophecy.

In what utopia do you live in where a wolf would leave a sheep alone?

 

Fine,putting the sheep in the wolves territory,wild and free, will still lead to some of them being killed by the wolves for food. The point,which you missed, is the wolves will simply not leave the sheep be. The sheep will run,as you said, and not stand there and be slaughtered, they may even through a kick or two in self defense. There would not be peace between the two.

 

The wolves will never kill all the sheep and eat more than they need at one time and the sheep will not stand there and willingly be eaten.

There's your natural balance and proof that peace is a foreign concept to nature all rolled into one. Apply the example to whatever you wish as you see fit and it still holds up.

 

You can try any way you like to rationalize it but the wolves will always kill the sheep for food and the sheep will always try and get away. They will never sit there in shared territory,wild or domestic, and coexist.

 

Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Conflict is the only constant in the galaxy. Every animal, every being, is driven to conflict, to defend their territories and resources. Peace is imposed upon species, and rejected by every instinct.

Through passion, I gain strength. Anger makes my blows stronger, Love makes my conquests meaningful. To deny emotions is to deny the most basic building blocks of all living things.

 

Through strength, I gain power. When war comes, and it always does, only through strength can one have the power to survive. When all else fails, the one who remains on top is whoever can keep power from everyone else.

Through power, I gain victory. Victory through concessions or treaties is no victory. The true, ultimate victory is when all who oppose you are no more, and only through power can you achieve true victory.

Through victory, my chains are broken. Sharing power with the weak does not strengthens them, it only weakens you both. Only through complete victory over your enemies will you be completely free.

 

The Force shall free me.

 

I've seen this breakdown of the Sith Code over the years on Wookipedia and various other SW sites and find it to be pretty accurate when it comes to the Sith and their behavior.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Temeluchus

[ikinai]

In what utopia do you live in where a wolf would leave a sheep alone?

 

Fine,putting the sheep in the wolves territory,wild and free, will still lead to some of them being killed by the wolves for food. The point,which you missed, is the wolves will simply not leave the sheep be. The sheep will run,as you said, and not stand there and be slaughtered, they may even through a kick or two in self defense. There would not be peace between the two.

 

The wolves will never kill all the sheep and eat more than they need at one time and the sheep will not stand there and willingly be eaten.

There's your natural balance and proof that peace is a foreign concept to nature all rolled into one. Apply the example to whatever you wish as you see fit and it still holds up.

 

You can try any way you like to rationalize it but the wolves will always kill the sheep for food and the sheep will always try and get away. They will never sit there in shared territory,wild or domestic, and coexist.

 

Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Conflict is the only constant in the galaxy. Every animal, every being, is driven to conflict, to defend their territories and resources. Peace is imposed upon species, and rejected by every instinct.

Through passion, I gain strength. Anger makes my blows stronger, Love makes my conquests meaningful. To deny emotions is to deny the most basic building blocks of all living things.

 

Through strength, I gain power. When war comes, and it always does, only through strength can one have the power to survive. When all else fails, the one who remains on top is whoever can keep power from everyone else.

Through power, I gain victory. Victory through concessions or treaties is no victory. The true, ultimate victory is when all who oppose you are no more, and only through power can you achieve true victory.

Through victory, my chains are broken. Sharing power with the weak does not strengthens them, it only weakens you both. Only through complete victory over your enemies will you be completely free.

 

The Force shall free me.

 

I've seen this breakdown of the Sith Code over the years on Wookipedia and various other SW sites and find it to be pretty accurate when it comes to the Sith and their behavior.

 

This does not prove that peace is a lie. It only proves you have a bad concept of nature. You want it to be true to justify your views, but it doesn't. You can't force this view on the natural order of the universe, no matter how much you want it to, it just isn't that way. The wolves don't randomly attack sheep. They do so only when hungry, that is the natural order of things, therein is the peace of nature. Something you fail to understand. Balance is peace. Therefore peace is not a lie. Which means the sith code is inherently flawed, as the first stated premise is wrong.

[Temeluchus]

This does not prove that peace is a lie. It only proves you have a bad concept of nature. You want it to be true to justify your views, but it doesn't. You can't force this view on the natural order of the universe, no matter how much you want it to, it just isn't that way. The wolves don't randomly attack sheep. They do so only when hungry, that is the natural order of things, therein is the peace of nature. Something you fail to understand. Balance is peace. Therefore peace is not a lie. Which means the sith code is inherently flawed, as the first stated premise is wrong.

 

You keep missing the point,yet touching on it when arguing against it. I never said the wolves would randomly attack the sheep for giggles, they do so when they are hungry and need food. The very fact that there are carnivores and omnivores goes against the fact that peace is natural. Heck,even herbivores aren't at peace with the trees and plants minding their own business when some animal decides to snack on it.

 

If peace where what you say it is, the wolves would never,ever eat the sheep no matter how hungry they were.

 

Yes, there is balance in nature,as well as order and chaos; I'm not disputing that. But peace is an unnatural concept because it goes against things like instinct,fundamental behavior and the like.

 

If you sat there in a vacuum observing numerous aspects of nature, you would not find peace in it unless it was forced upon the subjects.

[Xanikk]

The sith do not operate off of positive emotions - True

 

The dark side is inherently evil and negative - True

 

If you beileve the jedi order sure.. but there are grey jedi who use the dark side without committing evil actions.

 

Just because the jedi says it's evil doesnt make it so.

 

So is passion not a positive emotion? According to the jedi no, but according to people in the real world it sure as hell isnt negative.

 

Is having passion in your job negative? LOL

Edited March 7, 2012 by Xanikk

[Xanikk]

Actually, nature is about balance, something the sith do not understand. The sith would eradicate the light side, thereby destroying balance and the natural order of the galaxy. Whereas the jedi don't actually want to destroy the sith, but put things in balance, they understand far more the importance of balance.

 

Actually the jedi do want to eradicate the sith. This is proven throughout the books and the rest of the EU.

[Temeluchus]

Actually the jedi do want to eradicate the sith. This is proven throughout the books and the rest of the EU.

 

The Great Hyperspace War and how the Republic acted at the end of it is a great example of this.

[Russkiier]

This debate is interesting. I fall on the side that the Sith, meaning beings that follow the Sith code, are not inherently evil, just suseptible to the corruption of power.

 

Sith operate on the principle of survival of the fittest. Is that inherently evil? IMO no, it is not. That's the principle of the Mandolorian clans right? with the strongest mandolorian leading them. The only reason the mandolorians are not considered evil is because they have things like "honor" and "loyalty" which are completely human constructs and have no meaning but the meaning that people imbue them with.

 

Furthermore, the jedi are not inherently good. Hypothetically, if the republic was corrupt and bringing ruin on its people, would the Jedi orchestrate a coup and overthrow a corrupt regime (has anything like this happened in the EU?)

 

TL;DR

Sith are not inherently evil, because survival of the fittest is not inherently evil. The only meaning that actions have is the meaning that we attribute to those actions

[JonoLR]

So is passion not a positive emotion? According to the jedi no, but according to people in the real world it sure as hell isnt negative.

 

No, it's both. Passion is a strong emotion that can be both negative or positive.

 

Is having passion in your job negative? LOL

 

Depend if you love your job or hate it with a passion.

 

Furthermore, the jedi are not inherently good. Hypothetically, if the republic was corrupt and bringing ruin on its people, would the Jedi orchestrate a coup and overthrow a corrupt regime (has anything like this happened in the EU?)

 

It's happened in the EU. Plus Palps sold off what the Jedi did in Ep 3 as a attempted coup.

Edited March 7, 2012 by JonoLR

[TrueKalma]

To the OP:

 

No, as a concept, they shouldn't be evil

But they are misrepresented as such in every media just because, let's face it, morality in Star Wars is either "saint" or "hellspawn". Jedi can do no wrong (unless they are corrupted, which means they turn sith more often then not), while sith can't have any honor, constructive thoughts or even common sense, they just kill, betray and act like psychos.

 

Which is why in SWtoR roleplayng a Sith with common sense made me stay perfectly in the middle of the alignment bar. Apparently having a functioning brain qualifies as "light side" in this game.

[Ravshar]

To the OP:

 

No, as a concept, they shouldn't be evil.

 

 

Depends on what you mean by concept. The Sith code was written by evil people in an effort to teach their evil ways. If you mean drawing on emotions as a concept, thats a bit different. The truth is that it doesn't matter wether or not the concept is good/evil. The Sith organization in the game is a group of evil people, run by even more evil people, to further their evil intentions. So (exceptions aside) the Sith as a whole are evil.

 

The OP mentioned a couple Sith and said those "cast a dark light" on the Sith as a whole. I don't know what lore he read, but almost all Sith have always been evil. Those two were the rule, not the exception. There are plenty of good "dark-jedi" and such, but you have to be trained by the Stih to be Sith. And they aren't knowingly going to let a good acolyte graduate.

 

Remember that most aren't saying that all force-users that draw on their emotions are completely evil. Just the Sith. Idk, this topic keeps going round and round. Someone brings up a point, someone counters, then 10 pages later someone else brings up the same point again.

[Temeluchus]

Depends on what you mean by concept. The Sith code was written by evil people in an effort to teach their evil ways. If you mean drawing on emotions as a concept, thats a bit different. The truth is that it doesn't matter wether or not the concept is good/evil. The Sith organization in the game is a group of evil people, run by even more evil people, to further their evil intentions. So (exceptions aside) the Sith as a whole are evil.

 

The OP mentioned a couple Sith and said those "cast a dark light" on the Sith as a whole. I don't know what lore he read, but almost all Sith have always been evil. Those two were the rule, not the exception. There are plenty of good "dark-jedi" and such, but you have to be trained by the Stih to be Sith. And they aren't knowingly going to let a good acolyte graduate.

 

Remember that most aren't saying that all force-users that draw on their emotions are completely evil. Just the Sith. Idk, this topic keeps going round and round. Someone brings up a point, someone counters, then 10 pages later someone else brings up the same point again.

 

You make a few valid points but I disagree with you about the Sith code being written by evil people and you also seem to focus solely on the Rule of Two Sith.

 

I wouldn't really say that the Sith Code was written by clearly evil people, it appears to have been written more by what we would know as Darwinists. Survival of the fittest is the key to power and the Sith Code tells you how to be at the top.

 

To counter what you are saying, the Sith Empire in the game is a group of various ranges of morality,run by power hungry,out for #1 evil to morally ambiguous people(Sith) to further the intentions of the Council and Emperor.

 

The power games played by the Sith elite aside, the Empire seems to be filled with people who truly are loyal to the Empire and then those that work for the Empire out of choice,fear or because they are slaves.

 

The Council seem to be out for revenge after the Great Hyperspace War and would like to wipe out the Jedi while the Emperor wants to become a god and wipe out all life. Remember, no one on the Sith side knows the Emperor's true plans with the possible exceptions of his Servants who are bound to his will.

 

Your examples of there only being evil Sith, good dark jedi, and the Sith not allowing a "good" acolyte to graduate are off as well. You say Sith must train a Sith, and this is true, but your examples would only apply in the Rule of Two Sith.

 

In this version of the Empire and in the Rule of One, it is much harder to track each individual and their morality. Personal attention to each and every recruit is impossible because of the sheer numbers, unlike in the Rule of Two where you only had 1 student to worry about and he/she was handpicked by you. So it is possible for "good" or neutral Sith to slip through the cracks.

 

You are right that this seems to be going round and round with points and counter points, but that's usually the hallmark of a beneficial discussion of a hotly contested topic. Just be glad it's not 50 pages of a flamewar.

[AlfiereDBC]

I wouldn't really say that the Sith Code was written by clearly evil people, it appears to have been written more by what we would know as Darwinists. Survival of the fittest is the key to power and the Sith Code tells you how to be at the top.

 

Darwinism is not about any survival of the fittest.

Also, you can be the "fittest" and reach power without killing for boredom, support slavery or being xenophobic.

The Sith are one-dimensional evil, I can't really understand who says otherwise.

[Esproc]

Peace is a lie, there is only passion,

 

This is true.

 

Through passion, I gain strength,

 

Show me 1 country/sect/religion/etc.. that has/does not wage war, even as of right now. Most often for obtuse reasons of gaining an advantage, including perceived heresies/opposing views.

 

Through strength, I gain power,

 

All countries are led by those that seek power, mostly over the good of all the people, for the few elite.

 

Through power, I gain victory,

 

Leaders of all sorts ruling the people by whatever means they choose.

 

Through victory, my chains are broken,

 

Revolution, breaking free of constraint for freedom. Freedom of control, rule, of and even by the people.

 

Rinse, repeat.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Esproc

[Temeluchus]

Darwinism is not about any survival of the fittest.

Also, you can be the "fittest" and reach power without killing for boredom, support slavery or being xenophobic.

The Sith are one-dimensional evil, I can't really understand who says otherwise.

 

Darwinism's definition was not originally the "survival of the fittest", but it's evolved into it. Some famous scientist coined the phrase when talking about Darwinism and it's stuck and evolved into it. Don't believe me, look it up.

 

Saying Sith are one dimensional evil leads me to believe you haven't rolled a Imperial toon, rarely read EU books and napped during Anakin's transformation into Vader, his motivations for doing so and so forth.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Temeluchus

[Saelos]

I'd say it's better to be in consonant battle with your emotions than a constant battle with everyone around you.

 

I agree. A sith is not a master of his emotions but a slave. When they feel angry the go with it - how is that mastering your emotions?

[Temeluchus]

I agree. A sith is not a master of his emotions but a slave. When they feel angry the go with it - how is that mastering your emotions?

 

It's a good point. Of course I could turn that around and say aren't the Jedi, by distancing themselves from emotion and emotional attachment, making themselves into dispassionate automatons.

[Saelos]

You keep missing the point,yet touching on it when arguing against it. I never said the wolves would randomly attack the sheep for giggles, they do so when they are hungry and need food. The very fact that there are carnivores and omnivores goes against the fact that peace is natural. Heck,even herbivores aren't at peace with the trees and plants minding their own business when some animal decides to snack on it.

 

If peace where what you say it is, the wolves would never,ever eat the sheep no matter how hungry they were.

 

Yes, there is balance in nature,as well as order and chaos; I'm not disputing that. But peace is an unnatural concept because it goes against things like instinct,fundamental behavior and the like.

 

If you sat there in a vacuum observing numerous aspects of nature, you would not find peace in it unless it was forced upon the subjects.

 

I think arguing that an animal eating something for hunger is equivalent of peace is wrong. My definition of peace is when we don't wage war with each other. I wouldn't call a wolf hunting it's prey war. However, to say that animals don't play with their food is completely wrong. Orca are well known for this as are a number of other animals. But they call this 'play'.

 

I have a PhD in animal behaviour and evolution. Natural selection is not kind and definitely gets rid of the weak and sick. However, it also promotes altruism among animals that live in groups. Social animals will do better, and do, if they show more altruistic behaviours towards their fellow comrades. This is very anit-Empire I think. So its not as simple as saying natural selection is survival of the fittest and leave it at that.

 

My two cents.

 

ps- my reply was also to the person you quoted so Im not arguing against you in all points.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Saelos