Gunslinger - why no class should touch our DPS.

[Xzenorath]

I thought this was the gunslinger forums not the trooper forum

 

I dropped my Trooper like a bag of bricks and rerolled a Gunslinger, leveled up and fell in love with the class and so decided to come here and see what the community was like, threads about specs, etc.

 

Unfortunately, I landed in this thread and I frankly can't believe why people are trying to get more damage out of the Gunslinger when it's pretty apparent the issue is their survivability, if anything.

 

I'm just throwing my pennies in there when people use troopers as a comparison tool and yet are very misinformed about them.

 

In all honesty, it does seem like the Gunslinger has a very high skill cap and people who don't grasp all the tools provided to the class appear to be struggling.

 

I dominated warzones on my trooper and I still dominate on my new Gunslinger. I see plenty of Smugglers ripping it up on my server and it just blows my mind that some people feel like this class needs even more damage.

 

My trooper didn't have nearly as much burst as my Gunslinger does and I find myself taking healers apart with a lot more ease. Sure, melees are a PITA, but that's just the way it is.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Xzenorath

[Cynan_Ski]

So what would help survivability?

[Xzenorath]

So what would help survivability?

 

I would LOVE to have some type of Camouflage/Vanish type ability for the Gunslinger. Allowing us to position ourselves without being seen or having the ability to drop out of sight for 8-10 seconds with a temporary speed buff.

 

It would allow us to play with tactic.

 

Seems to me like we're lacking an "Oh sh-" button to get away, most squishy classes currently have means to either vanish out of sight or dash away with some kind of sprint/leap ability.

 

The Gunslinger seems to be stuck in his trenches, no matter how crowded the trench become.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Xzenorath

[contacts]

So what would help survivability?

 

taking the sab tree to the top will give you more survivability if that is what your looking for. as it is, were not a class built on taking damage, we deal damage. the best way to stay alive is to follow teammates into battle and dpsing any one who targets you.

 

 

in regards to the thread....GS are not broke at all, and certainly don't need any buffs. certainly wouldnt mind them bumping up our dps, why not? but really, the class is more than fine as is and people that are crying for buffs have to just learn to play better.

[Battlereaver]

I would LOVE to have some type of Camouflage/Vanish type ability for the Gunslinger. Allowing us to position ourselves without being seen or having the ability to drop out of sight for 8-10 seconds with a temporary speed buff.

 

It would allow us to play with tactic.

 

Seems to me like we're lacking an "Oh sh-" button to get away, most squishy classes currently have means to either vanish out of sight or dash away with some kind of sprint/leap ability.

 

The Gunslinger seems to be stuck in his trenches, no matter how crowded the trench become.

 

This goes back to what I was stating that we need something to make this class more appealing. But at the same time would break our counterpart the scoundrel. This would make it so we could do what a scoundrel can do but from 35m away.

 

The increase in damage plea is mostly out of the cry that people want to be rewarded for their pick of being a pure DPS and what better way to balance out our issues but by stacking on more damage. Which is why I stated you cant accurately say we need more damage without having data in front of you. And people play what ever class makes them feel OP and can get the job done. I had friends in WoW that were tickled pink because they found a macro they customized for their hunter that all they had to do was scroll the mouse wheel and all their shots would go off in order and start over based on their CDs. If you take the average player and say here is a gunslinger and his 28 key binds have fun! and then sit them down on a trooper and he like here is your 8-10 primary keys have fun! they are gradually going to lean towards the class that requires less work for the same output. The path of least resistance is oft a term used for this. If the player plays a class that is "less boring" and requires more work they generally feel they should get something out of it than the character they can "faceroll". And all of this utility you speak of I only heard you reference a couple things like our group buff and scramble field that are a unique ability as for anything else that would benefit the ops group is beyond me.

 

I think you are confusing utility with more complex and an increased difficulty to play. Which from leveling my vanguard I have been on cruise control plowing through everything and getting the job done (granted vanguard has more buttons to be pressed and in combination than the commando grav/hammer strike spam) it has been fun and I feel powerful where when leveling my slinger it felt like work at the same time as fun and I had to pick my battles wisely. Dont get be wrong i like my gunslinger and I play it more than my vanguard it is like you said yourself we need something and without the data in our hands we cannot say what that something is. Adding a stealth mechanic would make us stupid powerful and giving us more damage could only further hurt the situation with making everything one sided on what everyone plays (another WoW rogue/Shaman epidemic). If anything I have pondered with people that we should have a sprint mechanic if anything. Where we can run X amount faster in combat when activated and we can get out of a bad situation. It does not have to be excessive like the sage sprint but just a little something to give us something to have battlefield mobility when the tides turn.

[Xzenorath]

I do not mean for stealth, like the scoundrel, moreso Camouflage like the hunters in WoW. Slower speed, easily detectable from up close while moving, however on par with stealth if standing still.

 

Make it last for a set duration, preferably short. I'm only talking about an 8-10 second stealth, allowing us to get into position without being detected.

 

Or

 

A vanish type ability with a speed boost for a very short duration. Perhaps make it so that our damage is diminished by 50% if used while this is active.

 

Either way, it needs to be something that helps with survivability and adds tactics and flavor to the class.

 

Simply adding more damage doesn't do anything for the survivability or the flavor of the class.

 

 

Personally I feel like the Gunslinger is a beast, and the additional cooldown provides plenty incentive to bring one to your raids. Why take 2 equal DPSers if one of them can allow your group to cluster during an AoE phase and take 20% less damage while everyone gets AoE healed and keep dpsing.

 

Much like the Mages and Shamans could provide Heroism/Bloodlust, having buffs like these can make or break encounters where you're struggling.

[Twigjit]

For all those commandos crying wolf here. We are not attacking your class or singling you out. The problem for use is that once your are in champ gear fighting champ geared people you do total crap for dmg and die very fast for that crap.

 

Case and point are to examples of mine. I have a lvl 12 alt on another server. He is a gunslinger aswell. If I go pvp with him I fire charged burst at someone as a lvl 12 they may be as high as lvl 49. I will crit that person for 2.5k. Now if I go on my main in full champ gear wearing some columi because dr on exp is insain. I will crit a low armor target with my armor debuff up for 3k.

 

Do you see the problem here. Same spell much higher lvl WAY better gear and not much more dmg. Why because armor midigation.

 

Due to these issues I have gone Dirty Fighting. The problem here is that most healers wait till I have both dots up on a target then with one dispel they negate 70% of my dmg potential on the target. And to add insult to injury I am at half energy or less to get that settup rolling and have to wait to reapply.

 

These results have forced me to tab dot every target in view to have a little dmg output and to have energy regen.

 

So its not just commandos. Its more anyone with higher lvl gear that has more armor on it then basic gear. I may top dmg often but that doesnt mean that I am effective with much of that dmg.

[aritha]

I'm playing at 10-49 bracket right now and reading those comments really ruined my thoughts about the class. In 10-49 bracket if I chose a target he/she is pretty much dead even while dealing with another enemy on me. And enemy snipers always cause lots of trouble for my team also.

 

The problem with the gunslinger imo, we have to do high amount of dmg to the target before the target react or reach to us. Because we have no real escape mechanism, enough mitigation or energy pool, regen to keep ourselves in a long fight. Gunslingers have to nuke their targets, that's the rule. We are the hit&run class of SWToR. We should be the "focus kill" target of the enemy team. I should continue to do high amount of damage till they decide to focus on me. This is pretty much working for my bracket right now. But if things are changing after 49 it's sad.

Edited February 11, 2012 by aritha

[elorei]

So go back to whichever hybrid board you actually belong and just keep bragging about how OP you are. Eventually you will be nerfed or they will fix the other classes. So just sit in your tower for now.

 

You keep saying other classes are hybrids because they can pick and choose what they are going to do. This is wrong. You pick ONE thing or suck at all of it. If a guardian goes full dps, he is LESS survivable than a sentinel, for instance. (ask our healer who she wants tanking when we play without a tank, its sure as hell not the dps guardian, its ALWAYS the sentinel). If he tries to DPS in soresu, his damage is going to suffer, greatly.

 

Just because a class CAN CHOOSE to be a tank or dps, doesnt mean they are doing both at the same time. Same goes with healers.

 

Oh and your bit about heavy armor being a bonus to survivability, hahaha. That is hilarious.

 

Do you know the damage reduction stats of heavy armor versus medium? Im guessing no.

 

You are basically saying a class that can only do one thing should be better than a class that can do 2 things. The problem is, unless you try to make some gimpy hybrid, everyone plays a class that can do one thing.

[Hxxr]

Good glass of wine and this troll fest just made my day!

 

Thank you dear OP. :>

Edited February 11, 2012 by Hxxr

[Twigjit]

You keep saying other classes are hybrids because they can pick and choose what they are going to do. This is wrong. You pick ONE thing or suck at all of it. If a guardian goes full dps, he is LESS survivable than a sentinel, for instance. (ask our healer who she wants tanking when we play without a tank, its sure as hell not the dps guardian, its ALWAYS the sentinel). If he tries to DPS in soresu, his damage is going to suffer, greatly.

 

Just because a class CAN CHOOSE to be a tank or dps, doesnt mean they are doing both at the same time. Same goes with healers.

 

Oh and your bit about heavy armor being a bonus to survivability, hahaha. That is hilarious.

 

Do you know the damage reduction stats of heavy armor versus medium? Im guessing no.

 

You are basically saying a class that can only do one thing should be better than a class that can do 2 things. The problem is, unless you try to make some gimpy hybrid, everyone plays a class that can do one thing.

 

Sad to say this is only true for troopers/ bounty hunters. The truth of the matter is that Smugglers/ops can still get big heals and do amazing dmg. Sorc/ sage can still do tons of dmg and heal for 5k in a single heal plus tons of escape and cc.

 

I am unsure about the tank classes but I know one of them has an ability that reduces dmg by 99% and that has killed me more then once. Or won hutball more then once. And if a trooper wants to they can step behind a pillar heal and reaload. We have the option to sit where we are at and be cc immune or move get cced and die.

 

And again against higher lvl gear we barely do more dmg then a lvl 12 gunslinger we just have more abilities to do dmg which is total lol.

[Tasburath]

Personally, I think sentinel DPS should be equal to gunslinger WHILE dealing with combat mechanics (jousting, position, etc.)

 

This would actually put Sentinel ahead when there were no combat mechanics to contend with.

 

As we all know, though, almost all raid encounters have mechanics that melee has to deal with.

[VelnikSP]

All I know is, I hope we do NOT get a way to meter DPS.

 

I don't want people shoehorned into roles as happens with other games.

 

right now we are not sure who has the highest DPS or healing, therefore we are willing to experiment with classes in roles that are 'good enough to get the job done'

 

I don't want some arrogant raid leader excluding some class with smug certainty that he's doing the right thing because 'x class has a 3% better healing ability'. I got sick of that crap in wow, and I don't want to see it here.

 

Every person that is pushing for a metering system is, in my opinion, simply looking for the 'best' in each role. I don't want the best, I want good enough... good enough gives freedom to explore alternatives.

[Tasburath]

I'm already seeing exclusions.

 

Groups are advertising for ranged DPS only for instance now.

[elorei]

I am unsure about the tank classes but I know one of them has an ability that reduces dmg by 99% and that has killed me more then once.

 

Yeah umm, thats not a tank ability, its a sentinel/marauder ability.

[RedMix]

Personally, I think sentinel DPS should be equal to gunslinger WHILE dealing with combat mechanics (jousting, position, etc.)

 

This would actually put Sentinel ahead when there were no combat mechanics to contend with.

 

As we all know, though, almost all raid encounters have mechanics that melee has to deal with.

 

 

Sentinels have abilities to counter PvE mechanics, such as leap, force speed, stealth, damage immunity, and self healing all while maintaining damage with DoT's and gaining Rage surpluses when given opportunity to leap.

 

When a Gunslinger is pulled in knocked back/down or avoiding AoE's, they are forced to do subpar rotations when traversing to safety until they can return to cover. Gunslingers are given 0 abilities to compensate for this.

 

You think that sentinels should have MORE damage... because why??

[Junostorm]

You keep saying other classes are hybrids because they can pick and choose what they are going to do. This is wrong. You pick ONE thing or suck at all of it. If a guardian goes full dps, he is LESS survivable than a sentinel, for instance. (ask our healer who she wants tanking when we play without a tank, its sure as hell not the dps guardian, its ALWAYS the sentinel). If he tries to DPS in soresu, his damage is going to suffer, greatly.

 

Just because a class CAN CHOOSE to be a tank or dps, doesnt mean they are doing both at the same time. Same goes with healers.

 

Oh and your bit about heavy armor being a bonus to survivability, hahaha. That is hilarious.

 

Do you know the damage reduction stats of heavy armor versus medium? Im guessing no.

 

You are basically saying a class that can only do one thing should be better than a class that can do 2 things. The problem is, unless you try to make some gimpy hybrid, everyone plays a class that can do one thing.

 

The point is this they still have access to those innate abilities the class offers. A DPS Sage/Inquis/Merc/Comm still has access to their healing spells, etc.... which is something you completely glossed over. Those other abilities are not as powerful as if they were spec'd up to be, but that does not mean they cannot be used. What you are describing is someone playing a role not the class.

[Junostorm]

Sentinels have abilities to counter PvE mechanics, such as leap, force speed, stealth, damage immunity, and self healing all while maintaining damage with DoT's and gaining Rage surpluses when given opportunity to leap.

 

When a Gunslinger is pulled in knocked back/down or avoiding AoE's, they are forced to do subpar rotations when traversing to safety until they can return to cover. Gunslingers are given 0 abilities to compensate for this.

 

You think that sentinels should have MORE damage... because why??

 

This pretty much sums up the current issues with a Gunslinger, it is not the damage but the ability to react and survive. We have no mobility. Several root abilities prevent us from entering cover.

 

If we are the glass cannon we best be the biggest cannon.

[RaidenOmega]

Having read through most of the posts, and ignoring past all the useless name calling and childish idiocy, I find that there are many very decent points on both ends of the scale here.

 

All I have to add in this case, is that it's good that the game is still so young and that they're working on addressing these issues.

 

I hate sounding like a BioWare fan boy, but having played many MMO's in the past I'd say it's very likely, even if they don't acknowledge it immediately, that they're considering many of the things discussed herein.

 

The point is, while the points brought up in this topic are definitely issues it's nice to know that they will probably change sooner than later. That doesn't mean in the next patch, or in a week or month. More likely, if you play the game over the next year you'll see that it's a very different and hopefully much smoother environment to your class. As far as friendlier, let's not dumb it down to the point of oblivion. That ruins games.

 

Gunslinger is one of my favorite classes. I agree that they, being pure dps, should be a bit higher. I don't think they should be so high that they are unbalanced. I think that they should do enough dps to counter the fact that they can't heal or don't have many useful utility abilities.

 

The argument seems to be that if they do the best DPS no one will want any other class. However, the counter argument was stated that currently they have no place now because they can't do anything else and aren't the best DPS.

 

As far as classes are concerned, if you think about it in terms of an endurance race. You have a car that's a little slower with a larger gas tank versus a light car that's fast but little gas at all. The car with more gas knows that if he plays his cards right he's going to finish. However, the lighter car with less gas knows that he needs to be extremely fast to finish. Otherwise he runs out of gas and can't even coast into the finish line.

 

In the end, if they're made well, both cars finish and do so at about the same time. The faster car runs out of (or is very low on) fuel and coasts to the finish. The heavier more fueled vehicle has the fuel to finish and ultimately catches the fast car. So who wins?

 

I think this is where operator skill comes in. Knowing the track, the wind direction, and the cars themselves. If they're equal even though they are made differently they will still have an equal chance to win. If the better fueled vehicle goes just as fast as the lighter less fueled car, it's obvious that it has no chance unless the heavier machine has some kind of malfunction, either mechanical or otherwise.

 

There's no need to throw in things like caltrops and oil slicks. The point is basic. Just enough extra dps to counter lack of hybridization.

 

A lot of people might ask why in the world would you bring a fast car with low fuel to an endurance race. The point is that in SW: ToR, when a gunslinger goes up against a class with utility and/or hybrid abilities that's exactly what is happening.

 

There was an argument that stated that pure classes were an idea that even Blizzard admitted was poor. I couldn't personally disagree more. I love pure classes. The only class in a game I ever enjoyed that was hybrid was a druid. If they make this game pure class lacking, then I think they'll have taken what is a large portion of the fun out of it. Sure it's hard to balance but that's the reason they get my monthly subscription fee. I'll trust that they will do the right thing until they prove otherwise.

[ODTONE]

I personally think the cover system is nice but flawed,

and needs a vision checkup!

why get a buff, cant be interupted? to get pulled out of cover?

and interupted every 2 seconds, players even just need to pass by

one of the many items in the way in pvp and your shot it gone.

alot of wasting time in pvp , for what should be something very nice

and make up abit for our squishiness.

some of your shots take 3 seconds, most games in pvp you get stuned every 1.5 lol

and i get interupted all the time behind the shield, i think force choke or some sith abi does for example.

its a nifty idea but needs to be worked on still.

People love to exploit flaws and the opponents who know the shield's flaws

really exploit them non stop.

I kind of agree that as gs you should have abit more dps since its a dps class

thats all you do, it shouldnt be much more, but a tick more it should be.

if its harder for you to survive it should be abit easyer to hurt someone,

simple game logic, no matter what people think, its a fact of gaming!

if not why even go dps for snazzy chat lines, and getting laid every 2 mins in pve lol?

im often in the top dps in pvp but theres always a BH with heavy armor

on top on my server, because they dont die as fast and have pretty much as much

or even more dps than a gs. Our stuns and ccs suck honestly,

little toys but nothing really effective aside the flashbang and the legshot,

but legshot is kinda very short... look at a sorcs stun, u cant do crap

and half your health is gone, and he does it threw half the map

now thats a proper stun! not some cheap, eventhough cool looking, kick in the nuggets.

lets make the imps impotent lol..

and sorcs zap u every 2 seconds so youre on perma interupt,

cheap trick for little kids who dont want to actually fight and just click

repeatedly the same ability like rocket bhs.

i have my cover ,the dampers. dodge etc.. and those bh misseles still just

rip threw it, they bypass your 5 shields u wasted time to pop up..

thats why im mainly sabotage and use cover mainly for the group shield

and speedshot and abit of xtra defenses but its much less than people think,

and as sab i have a fire dot after my speedshot wich kinda hurts,

after a speedshot usually if the shield isnt up of the opponent hes at half health,

if a shield is up a waste of good dps, wich never happens to bh missles they rip threw my shield and cover..

seems like its not even there lol, just locking me down..

i gave up sharpshooter because i pvp to much, and the shield isnt working as it should,

and was a big waste of time often in pvp and u need to click it sometimes 5 times for

it to fire off with all the stuns and dots, and youre dead by the time its up..

cover system was a great idea but definatly not ready for mass production lol

but i think also smug might be the last class they finished off, the cover system is not really finished fully in its mechanics and its jerky and slow,

so it still needs abit of tweaking, when it all will work properly i think we will obtain

the results we expected, till then we get a flawed cover system..

 

ps: oh btw we have a small heal, coolhead you can make it heal you abit with little points spent, but its not really a normal heal , its heal over time.. still gives me like 10- 20k after a pvp run sometimes in heals if i dont pop it right before i die lol, kinda like a guardian, but less % i think 2% only or so.... cheap heal but only heal we have really so i use it lol

Edited February 13, 2012 by ODTONE

[shewebacca]

I think a step in the right direction for Gunslingers is to give us some sort of damage that is not weapon damage and hence heavily mitigated.

 

Especially for Sharpshooters, we have a very large burst. Increasing the numbers on that would probably imbalance us, especially against light armor targets. However, heavy armor is a huge problem along with the plethora of defensive cooldowns available to destroy our damage output.

 

Although flourish shot is nice, I don't think it is enough in certain situations. Gunslingers, imo, need some tech/elemental damage in their rotation. Not a lot, just a little. Example, if Speedshot did tech/elemental damage or any ability in our rotation for that matter. Or, if Illegal Mods converted all of our damage (or a %) to something other than ranged through its duration.

 

I honestly think besides that, our damage is fine, especially against light targets. We have a decent amount of CC and several awesome cooldowns for 1v1s.

 

As a final thought, I would like if Dirty Fighting or Sabotuer (mostly DF) had more utility skills that SS has (Aimed Shot knckback, further pulse knockback, reduced CD hunker down, ballistic dampeners). I think Ballistic Dampeners should be passive for all Gunslingers.

[Tasburath]

Sentinels have abilities to counter PvE mechanics, such as leap, force speed, stealth, damage immunity, and self healing all while maintaining damage with DoT's and gaining Rage surpluses when given opportunity to leap.

 

When a Gunslinger is pulled in knocked back/down or avoiding AoE's, they are forced to do subpar rotations when traversing to safety until they can return to cover. Gunslingers are given 0 abilities to compensate for this.

 

You think that sentinels should have MORE damage... because why??

 

Leap only works if there is another mob to leap to. Totally unreliable and you cannot depend on it.

 

Sentinels do not get Force Speed. You are thinking of a Shadow/Sage.

 

Damage immunity is on a long cooldown timer and takes half your health. Once again, unreliable.

 

The self healing is nowhere enough to mitigate raid AEs or Cleaves.

 

Our DOT's require melee range to apply.

 

Not sure I am seeing the advantage that Sentinel has over a ranged class.

 

Would love to hear from someone who has played a Gunslinger and Sentinel to 50 and get their opinions on the differences.

[chamberlord]

I just gotta say this..

 

Xzenorath, you a QQing trolling Dbag. Most of what you have to say is absurd, but it doesn't stop you from writing a short story. I had to stop reading your responses because they are so long. You are the most defensive person on these forums and you don't even roll a Gunslinger.

 

We, get it. You are a trooper. You feel you should be able to get top DPS. You are afraid of anyone being able to out DPS you. fine. Now, if you gotta anything else to say that has anything to do other than this, please do tell. Otherwise, please cry elsewhere.

[JoyProtocol]

In regards to warzone DPS, consider the AOE argument. AOE will gather larger damage (look up on youtube a Rage Juggernaught video), but will not kill as often and will not necessarily "win" the game. But they will have wonderful numbers in the end.

 

This is best exemplified for me in huttball. If the match is 2 minutes from end, and we're losing - I'll just look for groups of enemies, and throw some grenades at them. I won't kill anyone, but I'll get my 75k damage badge.

 

Not to say it's not useful (it's good for creating low hp targets to explode), but it doesn't win matches.

[chamberlord]

I would have to agree, sure if you want to pull big numbers spec AE. However, spread out it really isn't really contributing to winning the BG. AE's only great use, is for getting people off doors and flags. Also, its funny to watch a dude with huge DPS numbers and almost NO kills....

 

Single target DPS is what really matters in BG's. If they increased AE damage to the point that it was something the other teamed feared. AKA they actively tried not to group up when a Sab gunslinger was around. Then sure it would be viable. but, lets face it no one is scared of Sab AE.

Edited February 15, 2012 by chamberlord