The reason Sorcerers/Sages are OP in PvP

[Tumri]

Thats great, be a defeatest....

 

Any Juggernaut their salt specs for unstoppable for 1v1s. Meaning 4 second of CC immunity+20 dmg reduction after force charge. So, we now have 4 seconds of burst fun time, Bubble breaks in 2 GCDs... Now, wait for it, force push. A 2 second stun. If you time it right, you can whack them while they are in the air for overload, so they have to wait. Now Saber/vicious throw while WALKING up to him. Force choke. Now this supposedly OP sorc is getting nervous. Juggernaut with a full rage bar and hes barely made a dent. This is where you see what hes made of. Throws some CC cheese, short term CC? wait. Long term? CC break. Hopefully he falls into my trap and runs away, blowing his CDs. Force charge. Did I even mention saber ward/disruption/endure pain yet.

 

DONE DEAL SORC BACK TO BASE

 

Thats obviously one way things can go. Depending on who gets the upper hand.

 

Also, don't try to downplay the importance of your dots and how they can screw up your rotation. Anyone that has an annihilation marauder will agree that they make a difference in a 1v1.

 

Obviously, you don't have a Sorcerer, so I'll let your ignorance slide.

 

In a 1v1 31 madness is superior, Its more mobile and has better single target CC. For team-play shenanigans the stun on overload is fun, but not necessary.

 

You just described a scenario where a Juggernaut kills a Sorcerer in 4 seconds. What kind of Juggernauts have you been facing? My guess is the imaginary kind.

 

Here's a likely scenario:

 

Sorc is standing on a ledge or off to the side tab-DoTing and spamming force lightning in between for massive amounts of free damage.

 

Jugg leaps. Hits sorc for 4 seconds, may or may not pop bubble in this time. Sorc is still channeling force lightning at this time and likely got at least one chain lightning proc. the total damage done will be slightly in the juggs favor.

 

Sorc knocks back and positions himself further away and casts a dark infusion while the 5s root is active(dmg breaks it).

 

Jugg's leap comes off CD and he closes the gap.

 

Sorc uses a stun immediately and refreshes DoTs, Death Field, Force Lightning while he's crawling towards him. Chain Lightnining if it procs. Bubble is back up by now.

 

Jugg hits sorc 1-2 more times, pops bubble. Sorc gains distance again. Force Lightning spam.

 

If the jugg isn't dead at some point he's either overgeared or tank spec. Sorc can whirlwind(and break it) for another 2 second stun if needed and at that point knockback will be back up and he can do it all over again(minus the last two stuns).

 

------

 

One thing your scenario doesn't take into account is the presence of team mates. I made my scenario to match even though I know how stupid it is to only look at 1v1 situations. A sorc can escape to team mates and auto-win every 1v1 that way against anyone. Melee shine in 1v1 situations yet the immense CC that hybrid sorcerers possess lets them win even at that. The only excuse for being ripped apart by melee is the lack of skill. Most sorcs never even learn how to kite because their tools allow them to perform well even with minimal skill. It's not balanced when a ranged DPS can do well without learning how to kite.

 

Edit: You mention Marauder DoTs again as some sort of stupidly overpowered source of damage. I've never met anyone so clueless and stupid. If anything the fact that DoTs can be cleansed makes them a liability against anyone with a brain. Just a little pro tip for you: Marauders are the one class that NOBODY ever claims is overpowered because we completely lack ANY sort of utility in PvP. All we do is DPS and pray it helps us win the game.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Tumri

[Liaskar]

I don't have much to contribute, as I don't PVP. But as a healing sage, I will say that I would be angry if they moved the talent to increase force armor's absorption amount higher up the telekinetics tree. We need force armor more than a DPS sage.

[Tumri]

I don't have much to contribute, as I don't PVP. But as a healing sage, I will say that I would be angry if they moved the talent to increase force armor's absorption amount higher up the telekinetics tree. We need force armor more than a DPS sage.

 

I don't think that EVERY talent I mentioned should be out of reach for the other specs. I just think that at least SOME of these great talents should be higher up. If the 5s root and 3s bubble break immobilize get moved up then it would be fine for them to leave the +20% bubble lower down in the tree. It's not any one of these talents that causes the hybrid sorcs to be overpowered. It's the result of being able to combine every single one.

[FulkerS]

- WHY %60-70 of imp players are playin sorc OR %60-70 of republic players are playing Sage?

 

Give a honest answer. Then you will understand why this class needs a nerf.

 

Because they have glowy swords

[Nythain]

If we're doing away with hybrid builds, can we please do away with the juggy/knight tank hybrid? I mean, i really hate not being able to kill things, they need to get nerfed too!

[Tumri]

I'm not sure what you mean. I've never seen an effective tank hybrid juggernaut. I've seen effective hybrid tank/madness assassins though and they're being nerfed in 1.1.2 which should be coming next week.

 

If a juggernaut tank hybrid exists and is better than going 31 into a single tree I agree that their trees might need tweaking as well. Hybrids talent builds are notoriously disruptive to class balance from what I've seen in other MMOs and so far they've been disruptive to class balance in SWTOR as well.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Tumri

[Nythain]

I'm not sure what you mean. I've never seen an effective tank hybrid juggernaut. I've seen effective hybrid tank/madness assassins though and they're being nerfed in 1.1.2 which should be coming next week.

 

If a juggernaut tank hybrid exists and is better than going 31 into a single tree I agree that their trees might need tweaking as well. Hybrids talent builds are notoriously disruptive to class balance from what I've seen in other MMOs and so far they've been disruptive to class balance in SWTOR as well.

 

Most tanking jugs will tell you vengeance actually produces better tanking results mid tier... this is a very common and effective hybrid which is much better than going full immortal:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101dMG0uZhGMMrhzdMM.1

 

My main point is, lots of creative players have found effective hybrid builds for various classes, which up until today, I had assumed was intentional. Feeling "locked in" to a 31 point build just seems copy/pasta silly. I personally think there should be lots of viable if not awesome hybrid builds for all the classes.

 

ps. i actually run a 31 point madness sorcerer even though i've been criticized because it could be some much more pwn if i madness/lightning hybridized... i really like the extra 2 second stun dot attack that 31 madness gives me.

[Tumri]

I can definitely see how that build would be tanky. That spec loses access to the DPS stance so a quick fix for that would be to add a Shien Form requirement to Implale.

 

I used to be a strong supported of whacky hybrid specs but the problem in allowing them to exist is that balancing around them causes the trees they consist of to be underpowered. Sorcerers are a prime example. The hybrid spec has too much and if they don't get rid of the hybrid spec and instead balance around it the two other spec, madness and lightning, will end up having to be nerfed pretty hard.

[Rotm]

Give me a break, this build isn't intentional when Mind Crush for PoM procs is a dot with a cooldown. Sage doesn't even have a long cast outside of crush and wave and it doesn't work with heals so I'm wasting most of my procs without it.

 

Psychic Projection, another target of your ire, is on the same tier as TK Wave and procs off a dot and buffs TK Throw damage. That same Dot is buffed in two Balance talents. If hybrid wasn't intended why is everything split cross tree when a TK Sage is going to have no desire to tab dot and break his own CCs except that he has to for PP and Turbulence. TK Throw off PP procs for TK spec does nothing btw and shuts down generation of tremors, tk momentum, and tidal force.

 

Theres only one reason those abilities were designed that way and its promote hybrid cross specing. Anyone who looks at the talents for more than a minute can clearly see the intent but you arrogantly think they were so stupid they blindly stumbled over it. If there is any problem at all with the hybrid specs its that Disturbance, and tidal force are too weak to allow a heavier TK hybrid with FIB. TK Spec is also much heavier in on Turbulence to the point where its all or nothing past 19 pts.

 

If you want an example of an unintended build look at the Vanguard 23/0/18 build that uses tank stance with dps gear and exploits the uselessness of tank stats in pvp. That build has talents wasted on skills that give you zero benefit and mixes the best of two archetypes. The Sage hybrid is mixing two dps trees that fulfill the same role.

[Tumri]

Right. They totally planned on people using hybrid specs to be incredibly overpowered. That's why they definitely didn't nuke the Assassin hybrid spec into oblivion. Oh wait.

 

Your argument is basically "the hybrid spec works, therefore it's intended".

Edited February 6, 2012 by Tumri

[Rotm]

Right. They totally planned on people using hybrid specs to be incredibly overpowered. That's why they definitely didn't nuke the Assassin hybrid spec into oblivion. Oh wait.

 

Your argument is basically "the hybrid spec works, therefore it's intended".

 

The vanguard build I put up works exactly like the nerfed assassin build and will certainly follow suite when they get around to it. Sages don't get stances that double their survival to exploit by cross specing dps while picking up the dps talents in the tank build to gain unintended survival and damage.

 

This is like whining that a tactics/assault hybrid vanguard is overpowered because you can get degauss and hold the line. News flash dps trees often have survival talents you can cross spec and give up dps to get them from both trees.

[Tumri]

Except the sorc hybrid does more DPS than either of the trees while also having more survivability. Did I mention their main nukes are all AoE in the hybrid spec?

 

A hybrid spec shouldn't make a class stronger than a 31-point build. It causes incredibly tough balancing issues and generally makes the class gimped outside of the hybrid build if they're balanced around it's existance.

 

Hint: They're not currently balanced around the hybrid build and as a result the hybrid build is causing them to be overpowered. Bioware can either make the hybrid build less viable or directly nerf the talents to gimp both trees in an effort to balance the hybrid build.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Tumri

[Rotm]

a 0/20/21 build is giving up damage. A 0/13/28 isn't, but its giving up control. I seem to recall this thread not being about TK Wave but the survival talents in TK Spec. I don't even disagree so much with the 20/21 build maybe being out of order but I'm not advocating removing TK from the game which is what this would end up doing.

[Tumri]

I'd be all for buffing lightning to compensate for the loss of the hybrid spec. The problem is the 20/21 spec gives too much control while not giving up all that much damage in a PvP situation. Sure you lose out one some DoT talents and your long term DPS is lower with the spec but the control more than makes up for it in any PvP situation.

 

Lightning spec needs the control that 5s root and 3s bubble pop stun provide because it needs to stand and cast for the mass majority of it's damage. Madness uses DoTs and instant casts for damage and doesn't need that added control. When you combine the two you get a monstrosity that imbalances PvP. Nobody would mind if Bioware buffed Lightning spec to be equivalent in PvE damage to the current hybrid PvE DPS spec as long as they got rid of the 0/20/21 PvP monster.

[Rotm]

I'd be all for buffing lightning to compensate for the loss of the hybrid spec. The problem is the 20/21 spec gives too much control while not giving up all that much damage in a PvP situation. Sure you lose out one some DoT talents and your long term DPS is lower with the spec but the control more than makes up for it in any PvP situation.

 

Lightning spec needs the control that 5s root and 3s bubble pop stun provide because it needs to stand and cast for the mass majority of it's damage. Madness uses DoTs and instant casts for damage and doesn't need that added control. When you combine the two you get a monstrosity that imbalances PvP. Nobody would mind if Bioware buffed Lightning spec to be equivalent in PvE damage to the current hybrid PvE DPS spec as long as they got rid of the 0/20/21 PvP monster.

 

The on demand burst loss is significant from the crit talent especially with force potency and an active pom for mind crush. 0/20/21 isn't even the dominant spec atm and its only maybe imbalanced from a utility pov. Most other hybrids work similarly with mid tiers heavy on utility with crit and damage in tier 5-7.

 

I'd like to see how things play out with rated WZs before I would mess with it because I don't see it just blowing the Madness spec away to the point where changes need to be made. Also all the damage it isn't giving up is coming from chain lightning and moving that talent anywhere is destroying all hybrid specs. Being in tier 3 as the 11 pointer is also very consistent with abilities from other ACs.

 

Lightning doesn't have a pve problem anyway it has a pvp problem of having to few instant cast, a weak spam ability, bugged talents, and poor synergy inside the tree.

[Mouscha]

Ha Ha this guy is ragin cause I stomped him in WZ the other day...If this is the same Wrath character from my server...Get owned by Vectorate more noob and cry on forums lmfao.

[Tumri]

Ha Ha this guy is ragin cause I stomped him in WZ the other day...If this is the same Wrath character from my server...Get owned by Vectorate more noob and cry on forums lmfao.

 

What the hell? I don't recognize your name which leads me to believe you're some nobody that isn't very good. I also have no idea what you're talking about so go ahead and clarify. I've also already replied to the L2P comments in the first few pages. I dominate every single warzone I step into. This thread isn't about me. I have no problems killing the legions of newbie sorcerers(and just newbie players in general) on Vulkar Highway. There are about 10 others on the server that I think are good. The rest are pretty meh. I dislike imbalanced classes and that's why I posted here.

 

 

I'll just go ahead and quote myself from the first page.

Not even worth my time to upload pics so I'll just use the ones I posted before. I don't "get destroyed" by anyone. That doesn't mean I don't understand when a class is imbalanced and needs to be fixed.

 

https://imgur.com/a/P3lM4#0

Edited February 6, 2012 by Tumri

[Sykomyke]

My bad, I see them now

 

And you know what I see? A marauder beating all sorcs at nearly everything in 6 out of 7 shots.

 

You're not making a strong case here at all.

 

Caelrie, will you have my babies? I love how you are refuting his logic pretty soundly

 

On a serious note: I have more issues with skilled marauders then I do skilled sorcs.

 

But back on topic (your post). I'd stop wasting my breath: He's in a 'World 7th' progression guild. He's obviously far above us in terms of skill. We are mere peons in his presence.

[Sykomyke]

Against an equally skilled Sorcerer specced 0/20/21 a Warrior will not win. Knockback(+5 second auto-root) lets a Sorcerer cast a Dark Infusion and create a LOT of distance to basically reset the fight using a 20 second cooldown if things start looking bad. It doesn't matter if the Warrior gets the jump first unless there's a pretty big gear or skill gap. Once the bubble breaks the Warrior is immobilized for 3 seconds allowing the Sorcerer to once again create distance. If things start looking very bad the Sorcerer can insta-cast a Whirlwind and break it for the 2-second stun. On the off chance things start looking particularly bad a Sorcerer can simply use the 4 second stun to nuke the warrior. If a Sorc is about to die then a quick Force Sprint and slow will make it impossible for a warrior to finish the kill. This is all in a 1v1 situation where Warriors shine by the way. In a group situation it isn't even close. A sorcerer nukes from a distance and provides a disgusting amount of utility to group v group encounters.

 

"You mad that a sorcerer can purge your precious auto-heal dots? Or are you mad that you have to think instead of face-rolling buttons?"

 

I'm pretty sure even Bioware awknowledged the fact that Marauders/Sentinels are the most difficult class in the game(Edit: LINK). You seem to think the DoTs we have somehow make us a faceroll class. Sorry to say but you have that backwards. I think you're the one mad you might not be able to faceroll to win. Right now a hybrid spec Sorcerer that doesn't even know how to properly kite can still do well. That's not balanced.

 

 

That link you so blatantly linked to is more in regards to Juggernauts/Guardians then Marauders. Juggernauts in tank spec have almost no defenses outside their cooldowns in PvP. Something you may not be aware of is that a LOT of skills in PvP bypass Shields and Defense Chance, and a few are mitigated by armor if we are lucky.

 

That link from BioWare doesn't help your case with marauders....not...one...bit.

[Tamanous]

Bioware is on the hybrid nerf bandwagon atm so very likely sorcs will be impacted soon. I don't mean this so much as an insult to Bioware either. Just saying it will happen to ANY class benefiting too much from double or triple dipping. Sorc stands out in the forefront atm.

 

Defenders of the "no nerf needed" crowd can expect to join to Assassin/operative line soon. It simply is inevitable once Bioware determines 31 point builds are inferior to hybrid builds. Their design focus is to have all 31 point builds "most effective" in their role while hybrids a few % beneath. If you find yourself more powerful as a hybrid ... prepare for nerf.

[Lingalol]

this guy still thinks sorcs that are 0/13/28 are 0/20/21

 

NEWS FLASH. THEY AREN'T. THIS SPEC ISN'T COMMON BECAUSE IT'S TERRIBLE.

 

Stop crying. Seriously.

[Tumri]

this guy still thinks sorcs that are 0/13/28 are 0/20/21

 

NEWS FLASH. THEY AREN'T. THIS SPEC ISN'T COMMON BECAUSE IT'S TERRIBLE.

 

Stop crying. Seriously.

 

Then you won't mind if Bioware moves those utility talents up to T4 right?

 

 

That link you so blatantly linked to is more in regards to Juggernauts/Guardians then Marauders. Juggernauts in tank spec have almost no defenses outside their cooldowns in PvP. Something you may not be aware of is that a LOT of skills in PvP bypass Shields and Defense Chance, and a few are mitigated by armor if we are lucky.

 

That link from BioWare doesn't help your case with marauders....not...one...bit.

 

 

Nice. Taking the link out of context. The post I was responding to was implying that Marauders were some easy-mode spec that facerolled by putting up DoTs and AFKing. Anyone that has played a Marauder will know that nothing could be further from the truth. After I got over the level of stupidity in that post I remembered even Bioware mentioned that they knew Marauders were one of, if not the the most difficult class in the game. I linked the post in the hopes that that might knock some sense into him. Here's a direct quote from the middle of the Dev Post.

 

Our attention to the class obviously won't stop here. Balancing MMOs is a never ending endeavor and we're in for the long haul. For example, we are certainly aware that the Marauder and Sentinel are very gameplay intensive classes with some of the most complex rotations in the game. While we are currently looking at quality of life and usability improvements to increase the class' playability without compromising the unique aspects of the class, we don't have anything specific to announce just yet. We do however anticipate that some of the combat responsiveness improvements (AKA 'ability delay' - more on that here) being worked on by our engineering team will specifically aid both Marauder and Sentinel.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Tumri

[Lokai]

Not even worth my time to upload pics so I'll just use the ones I posted before. I don't "get destroyed" by anyone. That doesn't mean I don't understand when a class is imbalanced and needs to be fixed.

 

https://imgur.com/a/P3lM4#0

 

you just made whole thread invalid just FYI sorc is your counter class get use to being smashed by them it is what they do...

[Tumri]

False. Sorcerers do exceptionally well against all classes. The melee are actually the ones that give them a bit of trouble but their utility allows them to come out on top even against them. Rock Paper Scissors balance is also not how games are supposed to work. Edited February 7, 2012 by Tumri

[jtfone]

Tumri. Thanks for posting this and I agree with your assessment. The Sorc class is unbalanced with too much utility. The class is in another tier.

 

From reading this thread you can see alot of ppl are telling you to l2p etc. but that is because the majority of players are Sorc's...big surprise.

 

Hopefully Bioware will implement changes soon.

 

When the changes happen the good Sorc's will still do well.