The reason Sorcerers/Sages are OP in PvP

[TheRFC]

I'm new to pvp warzones for a couple of days now.

 

The first thing i thought was : **** , f*ck sorc, they need to be nerfed, im sick of the CC'ing, slowing down, where i am not able to hit 70% of the time my enemy sorc due to CC. I got one skill : unleashed to unstun me, with a CD of 2 min. basically he can CC me most of the time.

 

Then i came to check on the forums and read this. Flame cause i'm new to it, but my first impression was : nerf sorc, and i'm sure im not the only one out there.

 

P.S The thought that I SOLELY thought of sorc and not any other class should be an indication me thinks.

 

 

Everybody used to think that when they first started WZs. I hated Sorcs SO MUCH.

 

But now they're a free-kill because I'm a CQC class and getting away from someone in this game is very difficult (bar Huttball walkways) once you've closed the distance.

 

If they don't have guard on them they're insanely easy to kill up close.

[Sirolos]

There are a number of hybrid specs, mostly because the lower down talents for Sorcs are far too good. I didn't look at his spec, but I think he hit the highlights of a lot of the abusive talents in his spec.

 

Bioware has gone hunting hybrid specs and classes that are slightly out of balance. Sorcs are both abusive while hybrid specs and out of balance. An intelligent Sorc would ask for reasonable rearangement of their talent trees that wouldn't affect a 31 point spec but will eliminate or tone down a hybrid spec. That's the best chance to avoid a numbers nerf that just turns the Sorc into a CC*****.

 

Or they will make Wrath like Raze..

 

No more instant cast chain lightning

Move the bubble stun higher- more reasons to go full lighting/TK

 

Move the AoE immobilize higher in the lighting/TK tree

I would love these changes.

It wont effect 80% of the population that plays Sages/Sorcs

 

and limits both the 20% extra damage and instant cast to Crushing darkness

 

 

Limits the amount of CC available to a hybrid.

and cuts the most desirable ability for a hybrid out of the equation.

 

eBam, fixed.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Sirolos

[sithgrizley]

That's the best case. Then look at balance again in 2 weeks once people have figured out the new talent trees.

 

The worst case is they leave the talents as is, knock 25% of the duration of lighting and add a second to the channel, reduce the bubble by half strength, reduce healing 20% etc etc. Give them the Operative treatment. Totally missing the fact the hybrid problem.

[Grubfist]

ALERT: Read this -ENTIRE- first post before posting ANYTHING on this thread. Do not post vague generalizations. Respond to the points I actually made in this post. Do not join the long list of painfully stupid posts that had nothing to do with the actual content of the thread and everything to do with the title of the read.

 

 

The actual Sorcerer talents do not need to be nerfed at all. The only thing Bioware needs to do is rearrange the talent trees to disallow overpowered hybrid specs from making the class far more powerful than the devs intended. Lightning/Madness hybrids cause far too much imbalance.

 

The main problem is Sorcs have hybrid specs that are far too effective and they get far too many perks from all trees.

 

"Lightning Barrier" - Gives 20% increased absorption to Static Barrier. Tier 2 talent. This needs to be far higher up the Lightning tree. Lightning Sorcs need this talent because of their need to stand still and leave themselves more vulnerable to damage. Madness Sorcs and hybrids do not.

 

"Electric Bindings" - Adds a 5 second immobilize to their 20 second knockback "Overload". Tier 3 talent. Again this talent is needed for a 31 point Lightning PvP build to be effective but for all other specs it's just a ridiculous amount of utility that they don't need. This needs to be moved up the tree.

 

"Wrath" - Force Lightning damage has a 30% chance to make your next cast instant and do +20% damage. This is the talent that allows hybrid Sorcerers to surpass the 31-point specs. This makes it insanely effective to build hybrid and use the proc for instant cast "Chain Lightning".

 

"Lightning Barrage" - Affliction critical hits have a 100% chance to cause your next "Force Lightning" to channel and tick twice as fast(10s CD). This talent gives further incentive to the hybrid Lightning/Madness build. In PvP it causes Sorcerers to have a surprising amount of burst. While this talent isn't a problem on it's own it does further the gap between hybrid specs and proper 31-point specs. It's nonsense to have this talent in the Lightning Tree when you consider that "Force Lightning" is Madness's main filler. Lightning spec is supposed to use Lightning Strike.

 

"Backlash" - Causes "Static Barrier" to apply a 3 second CC to surrounding targets upon breaking. Shouldn't be in the hands of hybrids. Period. This is only balanced in the hands of an incredibly immobile caster.

 

"Lightning Storm" - 30% chance on "Lightning Strike" to reset the CD of Chain Lightning and cause it to be instant-cast the next time you use it(10s CD). Essentially a second Wrath. Combine the two and you have a spec that can use instant-cast Chain Lightning with disgusting frequency.

 

--------------------------------------

 

Here is an example of a hybrid spec.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201ZfcMMdRbZcrcRsMk.1

 

The obvious issue here is the fact that a Sorcerer using a spec such as this gets all the utility of both Lightning and Madness without sacrificing much.

 

A Madness Sorcerer is supposed to have some CC and a lot of Mobility due to a reliance on instant casts and DoT effects.

 

A Lightning Sorcer is supposed to have a lot of defensive CC and very limited Mobility due to reliance on hard casts.

 

The problem is that the hybrid spec has both the Mobility of Madness and the defensive CC of Lightning at the same time while also having greater damage than either spec.

 

This is the amount of utility a hybrid has:

 

Strong Bubble

5s Immobilize attached to a 20s Knockback

Unlimited Regen through the combined talents of both specs.

Spammable Instant-Cast Chain Lightning(This spell hits VERY hard and is an AoE)

3s Immobilize attached to the end of Bubble

Abnormal mobility through DoTs and a 20s Dash

Incredible Burst that surpasses the burst that either of the full 31pt specs can come close to outputting.

The best PvP AoE damage in the entire game through DoT spam, Death Field, and Chain Lightning.

Instant Cast Whirlwind and a 2-second stun attached to breaking Whirlwind.

Self-Healing

 

 

What I'm trying to emphasize is how stupidly well the bottom halves of the two trees synergize. It's obviously not intended and needs to be changed without breaking the full 31 point specs. Bioware needs to move the incredibly good talents further up the tree and move some of the weaker talents down to the lower tiers.

 

 

 

DISCLAIMER:

I don't care if hybrid specs exist.

 

I care when those hybrid specs break the game by making a class disgustingly overpowered.

 

I'm not asking for an end to Sorcerer hybrids.

 

I just want the hybrids to not have access to the utility talents in Lightning so they're not so incredibly powerful compared to the 31-point specs.

 

In their current state they're overpowered in every way.

 

With this change people wouldn't feel stupid for NOT using a hybrid spec because right now anyone using a 31-point build is gimping themselves as Sorcerers.

 

With this change people would still have the option to spec hybrid and do the same damage, they just wouldn't have disgustingly overpowered utility from BOTH trees.

 

It's incredibly stupid for hybrids to be like some ultimate fusion of two specs that's far more overpowered than either 31-point build. This isn't Dragonball Z.

 

I agree. Nothing wrong with Hybrids, but Sorc/Sage hybrids that focus on their channel are far too effective and have far too much utility.

 

The only thing I disagree with is the absorption talent.

 

Sorc/Sage healers are very reliant on their bubbles. VERY reliant. They are more vulnerable to interrupts (no cooldowns to prevent them) and no damage mitigation/vanish cooldowns. They also have the lightest armor. Sorc/sage dps that don't spec into the healing tree up to the HoT and its benefits have VERY ineffective healing. It is not enough to "LoS around a pillar and heal to full" unless the person sits in a full 8-second mez (which is unlikely because if they were just fighting the sorc/sage the are likely to have DoTs on them to break it and most players won't sit and let a heal-capable class go do that. They also cannot heal themselves (even without being interrupted) through any decent dps's damage. A healer, sure. A tank, maybe, but not a dps. Too many of the heals in this class rely heavily on the buff from casting the HoT that coms from healer-only talents. The "omg look at the healing they did" just means they threw bubbles on their allies often, which they should. The bubble absorbs count as healing. Even when it absorbs environment damage. (I've gotten a 2.5k heal medal for darting over lightning with force speed and a bubble on).

 

The point is, sage healers are less able to do as much when an enemy is right on them and spend a lot of time casting and managing ability cooldowns. THey need their bubbles to last in the in-betweens and they need the 20% absorption. It's a shame the hybrid and madness builds can get it, but the healers need it and the turrets need it.

 

The main problem with the hybrid is that it takes two different ways of using the channeled spell and combines them into one spec, while also picking up all the two spec's utility.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Grubfist

[Sirolos]

That's the best case. Then look at balance again in 2 weeks once people have figured out the new talent trees.

 

The worst case is they leave the talents as is, knock 25% of the duration of lighting and add a second to the channel, reduce the bubble by half strength, reduce healing 20% etc etc. Give them the Operative treatment. Totally missing the fact the hybrid problem.

 

Well..looking at what they did for assassins by making madness the more desirable tree Im not too worried.

 

Also..Operatives did lose burst..I will agree with that..but they still curb stomp me if they chain their CC's right.

 

I went over a Chain CC rotation with a friend of mine a few nights ago..

 

 

I regret that descision

[Iamurfriend]

My god, can't you guys just learn to play. Sorcerers are not that hard to deal with. If you leave them alone they will put up big numbers. Just freaking l2p and stop posting a thread every 5 seconds. WE GET IT, YOU'RE BAD

[Balmuck]

While I concur with the OP that hybrid sorcs have a bit too much CCs I would also like to encourage him to no longer exploit the Pure Shockfrozen Water bug. If you really have to brag with your 11 commendations in a huttball and it shows 100k healing, everybody should by now know what's cooking. (75k Healing Commendation, as well as 2,5k and 5k single heal Commendations) It undermines the sincerity of his concerns about Sorcs.

 

Getting 7 or 8 commendation with a damage dealer is still good, gonna give him that.

 

That's not Water, lol. That's Mara's self heal.

 

 

If you count in the self heal they got and the ability to not take damage for however many seconds, the overall amount amount of damage they mitigate through those means, would be much higher then the Sorc shield. I can tell you that no Mara will die throughout their ability to not damage and it's basically the best self preservation ability in this game. Everyone talks about Sorcs and Sages but a Mara with guard and heals, is 10x better to have on a proper team than any Sorc.

 

All the other classes have personal shields or abilities that reduce incoming damage by much higher per cent... they don't show up on the heal charts so nobody really talks about them.

[Sirolos]

 

The only thing I disagree with is the absorption talent.

 

Sorc/Sage healers are very reliant on their bubbles. VERY reliant.

 

All specs for sorc/sage are reliant on the bubble.

 

Its just a hybrid spec gets that + the majority of the CC utility available.

 

A Full balance sage isn't going to do the burst that other classes do, they have to survive long enough for their DoT's to ramp up.

 

A Full Tk sage isnt going to have the mobility of a balance sage they are pure casters

They have to survive long enough to cast so their damage can actually happen

 

A Healer isnt going to do the damage that either TK or Balance can do. They have to heal, and they rely on the bubble to keep both themselves and their teammates alive.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Sirolos

[Grubfist]

All specs for sorc/sage are reliant on the bubble.

 

Its just a hybrid spec gets that + the majority of the CC utility available.

 

A Full balance sage isn't going to do the burst that other classes do, they have to survive long enough for their DoT's to ramp up.

 

A Full Tk sage isnt going to have the mobility of a balance sage they are pure casters

They have to survive long enough to cast so their damage can actually happen

 

A Healer isnt going to do the damage that either TK or Balance can do. They have to heal, and they rely on the bubble to keep both themselves and their teammates alive.

 

That's a very fair assessment.

[Elyssandra]

How did this thread devolve into so much stupidity and go off topic since a fair few pages?

 

Are you guys even posting anything about what the OP was saying?

Can you read and understand?

'Reading comprehension' not something taught in schools?

Intelligence in short supply?

 

You may not agree with what OP said - why not respond intelligently?

 

Please stop derailing this thread with endless L2P, your own personal experiences in warzones, how sorcs need nerfing, how sorcs don't need nerfing, How bad the OP is, how stupid someone else is, etc.

 

This thread is about hybrid sorcs and how with a certain spec the sorc has massive amount of mobility and CC which is very handy in PVP. The OP suggests moving some talents higher in the trees. Try responding to that...

 

.

[Grubfist]

How did this thread devolve into so much stupidity and go off topic since a fair few pages?

 

Are you guys even posting anything about what the OP was saying?

Can you read and understand?

'Reading comprehension' not something taught in schools?

Intelligence in short supply?

 

You may not agree with what OP said - why not respond intelligently?

 

Please stop derailing this thread with endless L2P, your own personal experiences in warzones, how sorcs need nerfing, how sorcs don't need nerfing, How bad the OP is, how stupid someone else is, etc.

 

This thread is about hybrid sorcs and how with a certain spec the sorc has massive amount of mobility and CC which is very handy in PVP. The OP suggests moving some talents higher in the trees. Try responding to that...

 

.

 

I was disapproving of one talent change because other specs still need it. The rest I agree with.

[Jeffor]

I just wanted to post and say that I didn't read the entire original post because I don't need your stinkin' rules, maaaaaaan.

[Grubfist]

I just wanted to post and say that I didn't read the entire original post because I don't need your stinkin' rules, maaaaaaan.

 

I ain't a part of this system, maaaaaan. My dad's not a phone! DUH!

[Elyssandra]

And you grubfist posted once on topic.

 

I am talking about 5 pages of endless off topic garbage/ illogic. Like the posts above.

 

Please stop derailing this thread with endless L2P, your own personal experiences in warzones, how sorcs need nerfing, how sorcs don't need nerfing, How bad the OP is, how stupid someone else is, how you don't read since you don't need rules (nice one BTW), etc.

 

This thread is about hybrid sorcs and how with a certain spec the sorc has massive amount of mobility and CC which is very handy in PVP. The OP suggests moving some talents higher in the trees. Try responding to that...

 

.

[swifferdude]

oh, look. Thread number 10 000 about how somebody got destroyed by some class in pvp and decided to make a topic about it.

 

agreed

[Elyssandra]

swifferdude - Read, comprehend then post or stay out of this thread...

 

No need to post constantly if you have nothing intelligent or on topic to say.

For one it's annoying and distracting, for two it ceases any intelligent discourse and derails the thread.

 

This topic is not about anyone getting destroyed in PVP by any class.

 

.

[Sirolos]

How did this thread devolve into so much stupidity and go off topic since a fair few pages?

 

Are you guys even posting anything about what the OP was saying?

Can you read and understand?

'Reading comprehension' not something taught in schools?

Intelligence in short supply?

 

You may not agree with what OP said - why not respond intelligently?

 

Please stop derailing this thread with endless L2P, your own personal experiences in warzones, how sorcs need nerfing, how sorcs don't need nerfing, How bad the OP is, how stupid someone else is, etc.

 

This thread is about hybrid sorcs and how with a certain spec the sorc has massive amount of mobility and CC which is very handy in PVP. The OP suggests moving some talents higher in the trees. Try responding to that...

 

.

 

Not sure who your talking too..

 

A lot of people have responded with better fixes that wont destroy the class.

 

.....reading..

 

you didnt do it..

[Shivkala]

I agree with the OP, nerf Marauders

[JustinxDuff]

I agree with the OP, nerf Marauders

 

.........................................................

[Spootybeaver]

I really don't understand why sorc/sages are cryin at the moment that they don't need a nerf cause this class "squishy like this or that.Simple question to all the sorc/sage players.

 

- WHY %60-70 of imp players are playin sorc OR %60-70 of republic players are playing Sage?

 

Give a honest answer. Then you will understand why this class needs a nerf.

 

Im a sage. I guess your right. They should nerf sorcs/sages for being popular. That way all sorcs/sages will suck and people will stop playing them problem solved. You seem to have a firm grasp on the concept of balance. popular=OP. I cant believe Bioware hasn't hired you as the CEO.

[Elyssandra]

Not sure who your talking too..

 

A lot of people have responded with better fixes that wont destroy the class.

 

.....reading..

 

you didnt do it..

 

Really? Not sure who I'm talking to when I ask for ppl to stay on topic? Read the posts on this page alone...

 

In the first pages yes some ppl were responding on topic but this thread has rly gone off topic to the point that finding the few on topic posts are a chore.

The OP has asked ppl to stay on topic, a mod has too - but ppl keep posting their own wz experiences and nerf this, nerf that, you're bad, L2P garbage.

 

Now I can read a topic and ask ppl to stay on topic simply because the discussion interests me, yes?

I don't HAVE to contribute my two cents and in fact would argue that if only ppl would NOTcontribute their two cents if it doesn't add anything - this thread would be smaller and better.

 

But to answer your curiosity - yes I did respond albeit in PM to the OP - as I suspect he abandoned his derailed thread.

 

And my response was that I think he's looking at this from a very PVP centric POV. The CC and mobility is really of greatest interest only if you're a heavy PVPer - and if you try to change the skill tree to prevent that much access to CC to hybrid sorcs in PVP unfortunately you remove very useful skills e.g. static barrier for people who play both PVP and PVE or PVE only and say are seer specced.

 

Also I suspect it is more applicable to sorcs than sages - e.g. when you break forcelift you're not stunned automatically.

 

And that's my 2 cents.

[ironmb]

ALERT: Read this -ENTIRE- first post before posting ANYTHING on this thread. Do not post vague generalizations. Respond to the points I actually made in this post. Do not join the long list of painfully stupid posts that had nothing to do with the actual content of the thread and everything to do with the title of the read.

 

 

The actual Sorcerer talents do not need to be nerfed at all. The only thing Bioware needs to do is rearrange the talent trees to disallow overpowered hybrid specs from making the class far more powerful than the devs intended. Lightning/Madness hybrids cause far too much imbalance.

 

The main problem is Sorcs have hybrid specs that are far too effective and they get far too many perks from all trees.

 

"Lightning Barrier" - Gives 20% increased absorption to Static Barrier. Tier 2 talent. This needs to be far higher up the Lightning tree. Lightning Sorcs need this talent because of their need to stand still and leave themselves more vulnerable to damage. Madness Sorcs and hybrids do not.

 

"Electric Bindings" - Adds a 5 second immobilize to their 20 second knockback "Overload". Tier 3 talent. Again this talent is needed for a 31 point Lightning PvP build to be effective but for all other specs it's just a ridiculous amount of utility that they don't need. This needs to be moved up the tree.

 

"Wrath" - Force Lightning damage has a 30% chance to make your next cast instant and do +20% damage. This is the talent that allows hybrid Sorcerers to surpass the 31-point specs. This makes it insanely effective to build hybrid and use the proc for instant cast "Chain Lightning".

 

"Lightning Barrage" - Affliction critical hits have a 100% chance to cause your next "Force Lightning" to channel and tick twice as fast(10s CD). This talent gives further incentive to the hybrid Lightning/Madness build. In PvP it causes Sorcerers to have a surprising amount of burst. While this talent isn't a problem on it's own it does further the gap between hybrid specs and proper 31-point specs. It's nonsense to have this talent in the Lightning Tree when you consider that "Force Lightning" is Madness's main filler. Lightning spec is supposed to use Lightning Strike.

 

"Backlash" - Causes "Static Barrier" to apply a 3 second CC to surrounding targets upon breaking. Shouldn't be in the hands of hybrids. Period. This is only balanced in the hands of an incredibly immobile caster.

 

"Lightning Storm" - 30% chance on "Lightning Strike" to reset the CD of Chain Lightning and cause it to be instant-cast the next time you use it(10s CD). Essentially a second Wrath. Combine the two and you have a spec that can use instant-cast Chain Lightning with disgusting frequency.

 

--------------------------------------

 

Here is an example of a hybrid spec.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201ZfcMMdRbZcrcRsMk.1

 

The obvious issue here is the fact that a Sorcerer using a spec such as this gets all the utility of both Lightning and Madness without sacrificing much.

 

A Madness Sorcerer is supposed to have some CC and a lot of Mobility due to a reliance on instant casts and DoT effects.

 

A Lightning Sorcer is supposed to have a lot of defensive CC and very limited Mobility due to reliance on hard casts.

 

The problem is that the hybrid spec has both the Mobility of Madness and the defensive CC of Lightning at the same time while also having greater damage than either spec.

 

This is the amount of utility a hybrid has:

 

Strong Bubble

5s Immobilize attached to a 20s Knockback

Unlimited Regen through the combined talents of both specs.

Spammable Instant-Cast Chain Lightning(This spell hits VERY hard and is an AoE)

3s Immobilize attached to the end of Bubble

Abnormal mobility through DoTs and a 20s Dash

Incredible Burst that surpasses the burst that either of the full 31pt specs can come close to outputting.

The best PvP AoE damage in the entire game through DoT spam, Death Field, and Chain Lightning.

Instant Cast Whirlwind and a 2-second stun attached to breaking Whirlwind.

Self-Healing

 

 

What I'm trying to emphasize is how stupidly well the bottom halves of the two trees synergize. It's obviously not intended and needs to be changed without breaking the full 31 point specs. Bioware needs to move the incredibly good talents further up the tree and move some of the weaker talents down to the lower tiers.

 

 

 

DISCLAIMER:

I don't care if hybrid specs exist.

 

I care when those hybrid specs break the game by making a class disgustingly overpowered.

 

I'm not asking for an end to Sorcerer hybrids.

 

I just want the hybrids to not have access to the utility talents in Lightning so they're not so incredibly powerful compared to the 31-point specs.

 

In their current state they're overpowered in every way.

 

With this change people wouldn't feel stupid for NOT using a hybrid spec because right now anyone using a 31-point build is gimping themselves as Sorcerers.

 

With this change people would still have the option to spec hybrid and do the same damage, they just wouldn't have disgustingly overpowered utility from BOTH trees.

 

It's incredibly stupid for hybrids to be like some ultimate fusion of two specs that's far more overpowered than either 31-point build. This isn't Dragonball Z.

 

AKA im bad, and i cant interrupt spells cause i dont have keybinds.

[Elyssandra]

AKA im bad, and i cant interrupt spells cause i dont have keybinds.

 

AKA I can't read and comprehend but want to add my completely irrelevant opinion to this thread. Thus derailing it even further.

[Varicite]

Eh, a Sorc/Sage has a total of 2 damaging moves that they can cast on the move, 1 being a very weak DoT, and one being a very weak instant cast w/ a cooldown.

 

Every single other move that a Sorc uses for damage is tied to Force Lightning proc'ing Wrath. If you interrupt Force Lightning, they literally cannot do anything to damage you other than run away and try to cast Force Lightning again.

 

This is why all of that CC exists, because Sorc dps is absolutely worthless w/out opportunities to cast Force Lightning. Even when given opportunities to cast, a Sorc's single target dps is nothing stellar, and its burst is far below most other classes.

 

Ooh, so they can put a lot of damage on the board. From DoTs and AoE, not meaningful damage. It doesn't matter at all, unless you actually care about who did the most damage in an objective based warzone. (Hint: If you do, you probably are not very good at the warzones)

 

Seriously, 2 non-activation moves. 1 is a really awful DoT.

 

Want to shut a sorc down completely? Focus him. That's it. That's literally all you have to do to stop their damage output entirely and send them running away.

 

Learn to interrupt perhaps?

Edited February 10, 2012 by Varicite

[Gadrak]

OP is absolutely correct,hybrid is just disgusting op atm