The reason Sorcerers/Sages are OP in PvP

[Tsubodia]

Sigh. Lofmir honestly I'm going to start ignoring you entirely. You don't accept comparative analysis and just tend to say "NO! THATS YOUR OPINION!". It's beyond stupid trying to get through to you. It's like someone saying "NO! IT'S ONLY YOUR OPINION THAT GLOBAL WARMING IS CAUSED BY POLLUTION".

 

comparative analysis? so you have combat log parses? and accurate data and figures regarding this? If so please share with the rest of us. If not stop chatting crap and claiming its "comparative analysis" because it is just YOUR opinion and nothing else.

 

coime back with actuall data and credible evidence and people may take you a little more seriously

[Lormif]

In previous pages your excuse was basically "Well they have more CC and control than any other class by far and their bubble makes them not much squisher than a medium/heavy armor wearer... BUT I STILL NEED PROOF THAT HAVING ALL THAT MAKES THEM OP."

 

please quote me on that, I would love for you to try and do that...because nothing I ever said comes close to that.

[Tumri]

"what the best spec for {insert class}" normal response "whatever your enjoy playing".

reality is we still till this day no matter how much we say we hate it push people to one or two builds for thier class why becuase everyone wants the easy route and hybrid specs suck in most games. The turth is we want freedom to create our own playstyle but not the other guy he migh make something better. Also we want have set understanding of what a class can do. If someone plays their class in diffrent way from what you except people cry for them to be nerfed. IE please kill this spec. and so it dies and the class becomes less interesting and the fights more the same.

 

Except there will always be a "Best" spec. The hybrid is currently the "Best" spec and as a result every single person is using the Wrath/CL build. It's not any more unique/creative than a 31-point build if EVERYONE is doing it. Besides that who the heck cares if it's unique or creative? It's a freakin talent spec.

[Tumri]

comparative analysis? so you have combat log parses? and accurate data and figures regarding this? If so please share with the rest of us. If not stop chatting crap and claiming its "comparative analysis" because it is just YOUR opinion and nothing else.

 

coime back with actuall data and credible evidence and people may take you a little more seriously

 

Because I need combat logs to compare CC capabilites of different classes/spec. Right.

[gerLd]

Honestly the only prob i have witg sorc classes are their ranges. Bring em down a little to like 25m

[Tsubodia]

Honestly the only prob i have witg sorc classes are their ranges. Bring em down a little to like 25m

 

 

my max range is 35meters. thats for a shock. rest is 30m. i don't see how you have an issue

[Varicite]

Sigh. Lofmir honestly I'm going to start ignoring you entirely. You don't accept comparative analysis and just tend to say "NO! THATS YOUR OPINION!". It's beyond stupid trying to get through to you. It's like someone saying "NO! IT'S ONLY YOUR OPINION THAT GLOBAL WARMING IS CAUSED BY POLLUTION".

 

Please don't stir up the global warming hornets' nest.

 

The Sorc one is bad enough as it is.

 

I don't know about others, but for me, you've demonstrated a slight lack in your understanding of the game mechanics, so that is where the "L2P" part comes in. I don't think anyone w/ a modicum of intelligence is saying that you are a bad Marauder, or anything like that.

 

There are just some misconceptions and contradictions in your post history for this thread that don't lend themselves very well to your argument, and when these things are pointed out to you, they are simply dismissed w/out a second thought.

 

For example, earlier in the thread you mention that any Sorc would be stupid not to be using his gcd's to tab-dot Affliction on everyone around them if they are focused and forced to run. Later on in the thread, you say that any Sorc would be stupid to use dots on anyone other than the 1 person he is fighting if trying to make an active escape. Things like this are confusing and directly contradictory, y'know?

 

You've since corrected a number of the fallacies, which is a step in the right direction.

 

I honestly think that a fix to Resolve, and making it effect roots would do a lot to tone down the hybrid w/out directly manipulating the trees. Do that, and make the 31 point talents more attractive, and a lot less people would feel that giving up the top damage talents is worth the utility.

[Tsubodia]

Because I need combat logs to compare CC capabilites of different classes/spec. Right.

 

 

actaually you do. You cant just list a series of cc and go "SEE DEY IS OP DERP" you have to look at t% usage, uptime, downtime, negation through resolve, failure to activate properly. How effective is it really? is the class dominating because of it? if the class weak in areas? if we nerf the **** outa this specific cc what will it do to survival on the whole. What will it do to the spec? will it force to 31 point builds? are those properly balanced? ect ect ect then compare said data to the same data from other classes and so on.

 

you have NONE of this info therfore your point is mute and this thread is pointless. any ****** can say <class> has 42cc and <class> only has 3 that means first one is OP derp. but unless you truely understand the data behind them you cant comment. I dont see single sorcs holding off 6/7 enemies in aoe slows and stuns. I dont see sorcs becoming immortal through cd use for periods of time. I dont see single sorcs game breaking in WZ like some other classes can do.

stop crying so hard and listen to what people tell you. the fact you dont even play the class says evrything

[Varicite]

Except there will always be a "Best" spec. The hybrid is currently the "Best" spec and as a result every single person is using the Wrath/CL build. It's not any more unique/creative than a 31-point build if EVERYONE is doing it. Besides that who the heck cares if it's unique or creative? It's a freakin talent spec.

 

I see Madness and Corruption spec'd Sorcs all the time. Obviously not everyone is doing it.

 

A good Madness Sorc will make you WISH you were fighting a hybrid, lol.

 

If you really want to complain about something being overpowered? Corruption/Madness hybrid. Those guys are the true pains, imo.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Varicite

[Tumri]

Again, the class is not OP, you still have not addressed how being 30m away is escaping...

 

Here. After showing how a Sorcerer can escape 30 meters using short CD CCs you still keep trying to argue that it's "not far enough". After it had already been proven that they have the best escape mechanisms you say it's not enough to be OP. Overpowered means something is more powerful than it needs to be. To find out if something is overpowered you compare it to similar abilities/mechanics/classes/etc.

 

 

That does not equalte to OP. Everyone has something for every situation, it is if you know how to use it or not.. other classes even have the same amount of utility we do.

 

You in response to "Sorcerers have an answer for every situation". No class has something for every situation except Sorcerers. That's what we've been arguing. They have the most utility of any class by far. They have EVERYTHING except stealth.

[Tsubodia]

I honestly think that a fix to Resolve, and making it effect roots would do a lot to tone down the hybrid w/out directly manipulating the trees. Do that, and make the 31 point talents more attractive, and a lot less people would feel that giving up the top damage talents is worth the utility.

 

 

a fix to resolve on roots is 100% needed. being chain force leaped 3 times and eating a fullroot each time is anoying. As for making specs more attractive. maddness spec will always at present work for CL as their wrath filler. the damage drop from losing the 31 pointer is mor e than made up for by CL due to its output damage. Moving cl higher into lightning forces you into either using wrath on CrushD which may not always be available leaving you firing out lightning blasts which hit for pretty much feck all tbh.

 

a nerf to sorc hybrids will require a full rebuild of both sorc dps trees otherwise the class provides nothing and just forces anyone currently playing a sorc to be a healer. which will piss a lot of people off.

 

Not to mention the sorc is the only caster dps in game atm (NO BH,snipers ect dont count they use guns!)

[Dregas]

Lmao combat logs? Stop harping on that junk. It's called getting a couple friends, dueling under various controlled situations, and analyzing the recorded data. You don't need a friggin computer algorithm to do it for you. Also, when you pvp enough, you know EXACTLY who's dmg/cc's are blowing you up and who is not. You also get to know where your class stands.

 

Don't get me wrong, combat logs are a great tool. But they are by no means the ONLY accurate way to determine dps. The same data that combat logs use are easily available to players ingame. With easily obtainable input (through duels and pve) plugged into simple equations you can see EXACTLY what your effective dps is in under 5 minutes.

 

No combat log needed.

[YMIHere]

Other immobilize abilities simply break on damage. This talent is an immobilize that turns into a 2s root if broken by damage. It's really good.

 

As far as I'm aware immobilize is the same thing as root. Doesn't your leap immobilize? Tendon Blast is an immobilize. I think you're mixing up the Backlash shield with this, I almost did in a earlier post. =)

 

"Backlash" - Causes "Static Barrier" to apply a 3 second CC to surrounding targets upon breaking. This is only balanced in the hands of an incredibly immobile caster with little defense. Sorcerers aren't anywhere near being immobile or lacking in defense. I suppose an argument could be made for 31-point Lightning builds to have access to this but it shouldn't be in the hands of hybrids. Period. Big burst damage with CC is dangerous for every single class but Sorcerers with this talent can simply laugh at anyone that attempts to burst them down. As long as they maintain their bubble(30s duration, 20s CD due to debuff) they get a "get out of jail free card" that activates on it's own. They can also abuse the bubble by manually clicking off the buff to AoE CC people with a 20-second cooldown. This is just an unbelievably broken talent all around.

This ability is MEH at best. I love it for all the stealthers trying to gank me, but I HATE it when it procs and then puts a resolve bar to full resulting in not being able to CC when I need to. You are giving this ability too much credit.

 

To be fair, I'm pretty sure it only fills about 30% of the resolve bar. I can't test because I'm 13/28 at the moment.

Edited February 14, 2012 by YMIHere

[Tsubodia]

Here. After showing how a Sorcerer can escape 30 meters using short CD CCs you still keep trying to argue that it's "not far enough". After it had already been proven that they have the best escape mechanisms you say it's not enough to be OP. Overpowered means something is more powerful than it needs to be. To find out if something is overpowered you compare it to similar abilities/mechanics/classes/etc.

 

 

 

 

You in response to "Sorcerers have an answer for every situation". No class has something for every situation except Sorcerers. That's what we've been arguing. They have the most utility of any class by far. They have EVERYTHING except stealth.

 

 

they don't have EVERYTHING at all. not even close. They also dont have the best escape mechanisms. They have 1 escape mechanism that's easily stopped by anyone with a brain not to mention that vanish, force cloak are by far better escapes.

 

but as you clearly are not prepared to listen to what people say and just argue with random ppl you think you can win against i thin im just going to give up on you and report you for endless trolling

[Lormif]

Here. After showing how a Sorcerer can escape 30 meters using short CD CCs you still keep trying to argue that it's "not far enough". After it had already been proven that they have the best escape mechanisms you say it's not enough to be OP. Overpowered means something is more powerful than it needs to be. To find out if something is overpowered you compare it to similar abilities/mechanics/classes/etc.

 

 

 

 

You in response to "Sorcerers have an answer for every situation". No class has something for every situation except Sorcerers. That's what we've been arguing. They have the most utility of any class by far. They have EVERYTHING except stealth.

 

 

 

so

That does not equalte to OP. Everyone has something for every situation, it is if you know how to use it or not.. other classes even have the same amount of utility we do.

equates to

Well they have more CC and control than any other class by far and their bubble makes them not much squisher than a medium/heavy armor wearer... BUT I STILL NEED PROOF THAT HAVING ALL THAT MAKES THEM OP.

 

read closely

 

does not say we have more, let alone more by far, nothing about squeakiness of armor....

[Tsubodia]

Lmao combat logs? Stop harping on that junk. It's called getting a couple friends, dueling under various controlled situations, and analyzing the recorded data. You don't need a friggin computer algorithm to do it for you. Also, when you pvp enough, you know EXACTLY who's dmg/cc's are blowing you up and who is not. You also get to know where your class stands.

 

Don't get me wrong, combat logs are a great tool. But they are by no means the ONLY accurate way to determine dps. The same data that combat logs use are easily available to players ingame. With easily obtainable input (through duels and pve) plugged into simple equations you can see EXACTLY what your effective dps is in under 5 minutes.

 

No combat log needed.

 

you mean those duels where a sorc cant even go to max range without the duel cancelling from range.. yeh ok. Also if youd "done enough pvp" you would know that sorc cc and damage doesn't blow anyone up. YES several sorcs together blow **** to the sky. one on their own, not so much. Also. classes are not balanced round 1v1 so dueling gives no reliable data.

 

as has been said before sorc burst is lacking unless your runing a high surge lightning 31 pointer. sustained dmg on the other hand is good. IF you allow a madness sorc to get several wrath procs then its a l2p issue. lock out force lightning and wrath is gone. then CL is gone leaving only dots. in the spec shown by the OP they will be weakewr than average and you should have no issue beating them as the cc will fill resolve and you have cc yourself.

 

in a wz if im left alone i hurt people. and i hurt bad. what generally happens is i face people who are not bad and who tunnel the crap out of me at first sight removing any issue from the immediate combat. BUT as said above. i only get that high damage through being able to spam FL. lock that down and i dont get CL out. leaving me with a dot spread + death field every 15seconds.

[Lormif]

As far as I'm aware immobilize is the same thing as root. Doesn't your leap immobilize? Tendon Blast blast is an immobilize. I think you're mixing up the Backlash shield with this, I almost did in a earlier post. =)

 

 

 

To be fair, I'm pretty sure it only fills about 30% of the resolve bar. I can't test because I'm 13/28 at the moment.

 

actually lets take a look at the his UNTALENTED abilities

 

Intimidating Roar - Untalented 6 second AOE stun/mes

Force Push 2 second stun/mes

Force Choke 3 second stun

Predation 10 second run speed increase for a group

Deadly Throw reduces healing to the target

Disruption interupt

Crippling Slash 50% slow for 12 seconds

Cloak of Pain shield/reflect damage all in one

Saber Ward - reduces melee and tech defenses by 50% and reduces all force damage by 25% for 12 seconds, MUCH better then our shield which will last about 3 seconds for a static amount.

Force Charge- built in jump to target with an 2 second imobilize and interupt, giveing you a 30m interrupt.

 

This does not even mention things like increases to all that, but every time he uses his CC breaker he gets 10% of his health back and such.

[Tumri]

Please don't stir up the global warming hornets' nest.

 

The Sorc one is bad enough as it is.

 

I don't know about others, but for me, you've demonstrated a slight lack in your understanding of the game mechanics, so that is where the "L2P" part comes in. I don't think anyone w/ a modicum of intelligence is saying that you are a bad Marauder, or anything like that.

 

There are just some misconceptions and contradictions in your post history for this thread that don't lend themselves very well to your argument, and when these things are pointed out to you, they are simply dismissed w/out a second thought.

 

For example, earlier in the thread you mention that any Sorc would be stupid not to be using his gcd's to tab-dot Affliction on everyone around them if they are focused and forced to run. Later on in the thread, you say that any Sorc would be stupid to use dots on anyone other than the 1 person he is fighting if trying to make an active escape. Things like this are confusing and directly contradictory, y'know?

 

You've since corrected a number of the fallacies, which is a step in the right direction.

 

I honestly think that a fix to Resolve, and making it effect roots would do a lot to tone down the hybrid w/out directly manipulating the trees. Do that, and make the 31 point talents more attractive, and a lot less people would feel that giving up the top damage talents is worth the utility.

 

1. It's situational. Earlier in the thread you the topic that was being argued was damage on the move. If a Sorcerer is running away and trying to do damage on the move he has tab affliction and a few instants. If a Sorcerer is attempting to simply escape to another area entirely then there's no reason for him to even be using damaging abilities. It's a similar situation presented(Sorcerer running away) but the goal of the Sorcerer in the two situations is different.

 

2. I too think making resolve at least 30% more effective towards all CC and having it effect roots would be enough to push Sorcerers using CC heavy specs into balance. The problem is that's a huge game changing theoretical patch. It's not something you simply wait for when considering class balance. If they ever change resolve then sure, rebuff some CC. For now though the current resolve system allows too much dominance through CC. The classes need to be balanced around current game mechanics, not future potential game mechanics that haven't even been hinted at by any devs. It's like saying all burst classes need a 500% buff to their burst damage because if they changed health pools(like from WotLK to Cata in that other game) to be 5x larger the burst would be insignificant.

[Tumri]

actually lets take a look at the his UNTALENTED abilities

 

Intimidating Roar - Untalented 6 second AOE stun/mes

Force Push 2 second stun/mes

Force Choke 3 second stun

Predation 10 second run speed increase for a group

Deadly Throw reduces healing to the target

Disruption interupt

Crippling Slash 50% slow for 12 seconds

Cloak of Pain shield/reflect damage all in one

Saber Ward - reduces melee and tech defenses by 50% and reduces all force damage by 25% for 12 seconds, MUCH better then our shield which will last about 3 seconds for a static amount.

Force Charge- built in jump to target with an 2 second imobilize and interupt, giveing you a 30m interrupt.

 

This does not even mention things like increases to all that, but every time he uses his CC breaker he gets 10% of his health back and such.

 

You're confusing Juggernaut and Marauder abilities and mixing them together to create a super-AC. Go on Torhead and look up the abilities an talents. It's what I do when a class is mentioned and I haven't played it much yet.

 

You also conveniently ignore the cooldowns/costs of the abilities. If you look at my OP I include all of that information to make an accurate comparison.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Tumri

[Zeuus]

This is probably the 20th time I've had the "YOU GOT OWNED BY A SORCERER BRO U MAD?" comment thrown at me. I'll post my screenshots one last time. It's safe to say that if I'm not the top PvP Marauder on Vulkar Highway then I'm one of the top 2-3 Marauders on my server. I haven't met another Marauder that has beaten my damage more than once in 4-5 games and I use PvE gear with 0 expertise in total. I am not some baddie that cries about classes that kill me in a WZ. I make threads when I feel there is a large balance issue that needs to be addressed. When I do make threads I make sure to actually find the reason for the imbalance instead of asking for general nerfs. In this thread I've pinpointed specific things that cause imbalance and I threw out suggestions that I felt would fix the problem while not over-nerfing the class.

 

https://imgur.com/a/Kk2Fd#0

 

So you use ALL PVE gear in PVP?!? Yes, you top meters, but your complaining about Sorc being OP? Really? Your fighting an uphill battle. Regardless of your stats, you hit on average 10% less and they hit 10% more. (Obviously that % varies with gear)

 

Your class gets:

An instant Stun that you don't have to talent, just like our Talented Whirlwind (Intimidating Roar)

A Vanish to get out, making you disappear from everyone. (Force Camouflage)

 

A channeled Stun that does damage, making your enemy not able to do anything; unless they break it. (Force Choke)

 

An interupt preventing that spell from being cast for 4 secs (Disruption)

 

An ability that reduces all damage by 20% for 6-30 secs and deals damage to your attacker. That will be WAY more damage reduction then ANY shield used by a sorc. (Cloak of Pain)

 

Another ability that increasing melee and ranged defenses by 50% and reducing the damage taken from Force and tech attacks by 25%. Lasts 12 seconds. Could be argued that its better than our bubble, it all depends on how many people are attacking. (Saber Ward)

 

And you have Force Charge

 

--------------------------------------

 

All those abilities and you can't seem to get to a Sorc, Stay and stay on him to kill him? You got so angry you had to create a very long post, in which you obviously spent time on, and scream to get Sorc's nerfed.

 

So yes, I ended my thread with you got outplayed. Because its the only thing that makes logical sense, why else would you need Sorc's to be nerfed? You use PVE gear in PVP and you're getting so upset you have to make posts about it.

[Varicite]

1. It's situational. Earlier in the thread you the topic that was being argued was damage on the move. If a Sorcerer is running away and trying to do damage on the move he has tab affliction and a few instants. If a Sorcerer is attempting to simply escape to another area entirely then there's no reason for him to even be using damaging abilities. It's a similar situation presented(Sorcerer running away) but the goal of the Sorcerer in the two situations is different.

 

2. I too think making resolve at least 30% more effective towards all CC and having it effect roots would be enough to push Sorcerers using CC heavy specs into balance. The problem is that's a huge game changing theoretical patch. It's not something you simply wait for when considering class balance. If they ever change resolve then sure, rebuff some CC. For now though the current resolve system allows too much dominance through CC. The classes need to be balanced around current game mechanics, not future potential game mechanics that haven't even been hinted at by any devs. It's like saying all burst classes need a 500% buff to their burst damage because if they changed health pools(like from WotLK to Cata in that other game) to be 5x larger the burst would be insignificant.

 

While I agree with your sentiment, I can't agree w/ your methodology.

 

Nerfing all utility classes because Resolve is broken, then fixing Resolve, then buffing the utility classes to not suck is a far less elegant solution than simply fixing Resolve and being done w/ it.

[Lormif]

You're confusing Juggernaut and Marauder abilities and mixing them together to create a super-AC. Go on Torhead and look up the abilities an talents. It's what I do when a class is mentioned and I haven't played it much yet.

 

You also conveniently ignore the cooldowns/costs of the abilities. If you look at my OP I include all of that information to make an accurate comparison.

 

Warrior - Intimidating Roar - Untalented 6 second AOE stun/mes

Sorry my bad thought got all the jugs out-Force Push 2 second stun/mes

warrior - Force Choke 3 second stun

Marauder -Predation 10 second run speed increase for a group

Marauder -Deadly Throw reduces healing to the target

Warrior - Disruption interupt

Marauder - Crippling Slash 50% slow for 12 seconds

Marauder -Cloak of Pain shield/reflect damage all in one

warrior -Saber Ward - reduces melee and tech defenses by 50% and reduces all force damage by 25% for 12 seconds, MUCH better then our shield which will last about 3 seconds for a static amount.

warrior - Force Charge- built in jump to target with an 2 second imobilize and interupt, giveing you a 30m interrupt.

 

So that one ability, force throw was the only mistakenly jug ability in there, yet was all that, in your mind, makes to invalidate the post?

 

Also I left the costs/cooldowns out because if I did that I would have to add talents, like you did, which would make it worst then that.

[Varicite]

actually lets take a look at the his UNTALENTED abilities

 

Intimidating Roar - Untalented 6 second AOE stun/mes

Force Push 2 second stun/mes

Force Choke 3 second stun

Predation 10 second run speed increase for a group

Deadly Throw reduces healing to the target

Disruption interupt

Crippling Slash 50% slow for 12 seconds

Cloak of Pain shield/reflect damage all in one

Saber Ward - reduces melee and tech defenses by 50% and reduces all force damage by 25% for 12 seconds, MUCH better then our shield which will last about 3 seconds for a static amount.

Force Charge- built in jump to target with an 2 second imobilize and interupt, giveing you a 30m interrupt.

 

This does not even mention things like increases to all that, but every time he uses his CC breaker he gets 10% of his health back and such.

 

Comparing completely different classes' CC abilities is not a very good metric w/out considering all of the other different mechanics that effect both classes.

 

Either way, it's a poor metric, because different classes are different.

 

It's actual performance that we should be looking at, and w/out a combat log, it unfortunately boils down to pure perception and anecdotal evidence at this point.

[Tsubodia]

 

It's actual performance that we should be looking at, and w/out a combat log, it unfortunately boils down to pure perception and anecdotal evidence at this point.

 

ive said this about 4billion times in this thread and the OP ignores it every time and has dragged it out over 100 pages.

[Lormif]

Comparing completely different classes' CC abilities is not a very good metric w/out considering all of the other different mechanics that effect both classes.

 

Either way, it's a poor metric, because different classes are different.

 

It's actual performance that we should be looking at, and w/out a combat log, it unfortunately boils down to pure perception and anecdotal evidence at this point.

 

I understand and agree, however against someone like him who relies on nothing but the abilities, that is all there is.