This Operative's Thoughts on the "Nerf"

[Gendonut]

This is something I just had to get off of my chest. Another Operative on my server recently told me he was rerolling to another class because of this "over nerf." The following is my response to those who feel the same way about Operatives after this so-called over nerf:

 

Anyone that thinks Concealment Operative's are useless in PvP aren't doing it right. Either a lack of skill or gear, or both. We just got away with the single best "nerf" we could have ever hoped for and the forums are running rampant with cries of "we suck now" and "how could you do this to us."

 

Let's go over the details:

 

1. Overall damage was reduced by lowering Hidden Strike by approximately 20%. Everyone thinks this is something to cry about. Were 7k+ crits pre 1.1.1 a little crazy with no setup AND from stealth? Yes, even against a well geared battlemaster player we were able to hit for 6.5k+ without shields or defensive abilities up on the target. Whether or not we are supposed to be a "burst" class does not mean 4 or 5 shotting someone with 500+ expertise should happen.

 

Response to 1. Proper use of adrenals and relics on an unprotected player (i.e. no shield or defensive abilities on target at time of Hidden Strike) will still net a well geared operative 4.5-5.5k Hidden Strikes. This is by no means low damage. Just because you can't ROFLPWN someone in 2 hits or survive as many 2v1's does not mean you are useless. It means you need to learn how to use your other abilities properly.

 

2. Jarring Strike stun reduced to 1.5 seconds. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN THIS IS A BUFF. I REPEAT THIS IS A BUFF, NOT A NERF.

 

Response to 2. Now that Jarring Strike no longer fills resolve this opens multiple new opportunities to dominate a target. On a target 1v1 with an empty resolve bar give this a try. Acid Blade>Relic>Adrenal>Hidden Strike>Cloaking Screen>Acid Blade>Hidden Strike>Debilitate>Acid Blade>Backstab>Shiv>Laceration. If they aren't dead by then they have a healer on them and you are on the wrong target.

 

3. Acid Blades armor penetration reduced to 30%. This is the worst part of the whole thing but by no means destroys the class. This part of the nerf has a much larger impact on PvE DPS and was a questionable change.

 

Response to 3. The nerf to Acid Blade by no means makes us useless in PvP. Does it take a couple more hits to kill a well geared tank in a warzone? Yes. Is it harder to pull over 500,000 dmg in warzones? Yes, but no where near impossible. Is it making it so that NO ONE is killable and you just get laughed at when you try? Not for me, but if you answered yes then you might want to re-read 1 and 2 above.

 

This is barely a nerf for those of us that put in the time to learn our class and gear up appropriately. If you're Valor Rank 30 with 2 pieces of Champion gear then you shouldn't be able to go toe to toe with ANY full champ or battlemaster player. Period. Put the time in and get your gear. This should not discourage you, but make you want to get better. You will get better with time, but being overly impatient seems to be the way of the world now adays.

 

You will not succeed at something you do not fully understand, and don't deserve to succeed at it unless you put the time in to understand it. This game isn't going to hold your hand the whole way. At some point you need to step up and realize all the crying in the world won't make you a better player.

 

To BioWare:

 

Thank you for separating the boys from the men. The "nerf" to Operatives has made our already small community even smaller, but you have given us a truly fun class to play. Those that still refuse to understand that 3 shotting someone, while incredibly fun, is not something that requires skill whatsoever, will never get it.

 

Thanks for the stunlock!

 

- Donut (Belgoth's Beacon)

 

P.S: To all who will respond with hate. Please deposit pitchforks and torches in the bins provided. I am immune to you.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Gendonut

[BacklashEH]

Awesome post.

 

You can't have a pvp game where a stealth class can 3 or 4 hit people, it's going to be bad for everyone. A good operative is still going to be an asset/ a handful to deal with.

[Stigas]

I enjoy your stream a lot. Nice to see someone succeed as an underdog (if you listen to this forum nonsense).

 

Good post.

[Zolaz]

This is something I just had to get off of my chest. Another Operative on my server recently told me he was rerolling to another class because of this "over nerf." The following is my response to those who feel the same way about Operatives after this so-called over nerf:

 

Anyone that thinks Concealment Operative's are useless in PvP aren't doing it right. Either a lack of skill or gear, or both. We just got away with the single best "nerf" we could have ever hoped for and the forums are running rampant with cries of "we suck now" and "how could you do this to us."

 

Let's go over the details:

 

1. Overall damage was reduced by lowering Hidden Strike by approximately 20%. Everyone thinks this is something to cry about. Were 7k+ crits pre 1.1.1 a little crazy with no setup AND from stealth? Yes, even against a well geared battlemaster player we were able to hit for 6.5k+ without shields or defensive abilities up on the target. Whether or not we are supposed to be a "burst" class does not mean 4 or 5 shotting someone with 500+ expertise should happen.

 

Response to 1. Proper use of adrenals and relics on an unprotected player (i.e. no shield or defensive abilities on target at time of Hidden Strike) will still net a well geared operative 4.5-5.5k Hidden Strikes. This is by no means low damage. Just because you can't ROFLPWN someone in 2 hits or survive as many 2v1's does not mean you are useless. It means you need to learn how to use your other abilities properly.

 

2. Jarring Strike stun reduced to 1.5 seconds. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN THIS IS A BUFF. I REPEAT THIS IS A BUFF, NOT A NERF.

 

Response to 2. Now that Jarring Strike no longer fills resolve this opens multiple new opportunities to dominate a target. On a target 1v1 with an empty resolve bar give this a try. Acid Blade>Relic>Adrenal>Hidden Strike>Cloaking Screen>Acid Blade>Hidden Strike>Debilitate>Acid Blade>Backstab>Shiv>Laceration. If they aren't dead by then they have a healer on them and you are on the wrong target.

 

3. Acid Blades armor penetration reduced to 30%. This is the worst part of the whole thing but by no means destroys the class. This part of the nerf has a much larger impact on PvE DPS and was a questionable change.

 

Response to 3. The nerf to Acid Blade by no means makes us useless in PvP. Does it take a couple more hits to kill a well geared tank in a warzone? Yes. Is it harder to pull over 500,000 dmg in warzones? Yes, but no where near impossible. Is it making it so that NO ONE is killable and you just get laughed at when you try? Not for me, but if you answered yes then you might want to re-read 1 and 2 above.

 

This is barely a nerf for those of us that put in the time to learn our class and gear up appropriately. If you're Valor Rank 30 with 2 pieces of Champion gear then you shouldn't be able to go toe to toe with ANY full champ or battlemaster player. Period. Put the time in and get your gear. This should not discourage you, but make you want to get better. You will get better with time, but being overly impatient seems to be the way of the world now adays.

 

You will not succeed at something you do not fully understand, and don't deserve to succeed at it unless you put the time in to understand it. This game isn't going to hold your hand the whole way. At some point you need to step up and realize all the crying in the world won't make you a better player.

 

To BioWare:

 

Thank you for separating the boys from the men. The "nerf" to Operatives has made our already small community even smaller, but you have given us a truly fun class to play. Those that still refuse to understand that 3 shotting someone, while incredibly fun, is not something that requires skill whatsoever, will never get it.

 

Thanks for the stunlock!

 

- Donut (Belgoth's Beacon)

 

P.S: To all who will respond with hate. Please deposit pitchforks and torches in the bins provided. I am immune to you.

 

Have you played any of the other classes? Saying OPs needed a nerf when you put the classes side by side is crazy.

[Stigas]

Have you played any of the other classes? Saying OPs needed a nerf when you put the classes side by side is crazy.

 

Buff stacking in general needs massive attention. That doesn't mean that Operatives were balanced.

 

Should they focus on nerfing ONE class at a time? No. I definitely take issue with the leaky faucet they're calling balancing changes.

[Binafus]

Someone that thinks a smaller player base is good.

 

Bet BW jumps on that bandwagon.

 

You should have added a request for server mergers too.

 

Funny tell me how you were 3 shotting a sage with 18 to 19k armor in BM gear, must be that part about being a MAN wearing a muscle T-Shirt LOL.

 

You hitting them for three times for what 8k to get through their shield too?

Edited February 5, 2012 by Binafus

[Avia]

Yea, operatives can kill people still. People with *******r gear. Or if you get super lucky and get that 1v1 off in the middle of no-where with all of your cooldowns up, and their cc break on cooldown. Otherwise, equal skill, equal gear, operatives will, and should, lose.

[Torn]

Yea, operatives can kill people still. People with *******r gear. Or if you get super lucky and get that 1v1 off in the middle of no-where with all of your cooldowns up, and their cc break on cooldown. Otherwise, equal skill, equal gear, operatives will, and should, lose.

 

You got it - there is no reason to be an operative - this guys post summed up: "Concealment Ops are fine because you can still play them" - wow such an astute observation

 

I still play my Conc Operative and have almost full champion gear - and I know how to play my class - it is silly when I do as much damage to a fresh 50 as some champion geared sages do to me in my 500+ expertise gear - I barely tickle them when there shield is up

 

Ranged does obviously not have to be close to you at all - they auto-face targets - they have just as many stuns and interrupts - way more survivability than us (even clothys becuase of the spam-able shield) - heck there is little disadvantage to being close to you, and kiting is easy- they do just as much damage or more - why be a melee class?

 

This class is already hard to play without being the weakest class - we are the worst class in PvP right now - we dont have any utility add nothing to a group.

 

Do I still do fine in PvP? Sure if you get people not geared at all - Our class was burst - its all we were - now we are just a weak melee class that hits less hard than a maurader - OOOO wait we can hit you before you see us........whoopy do when that hit doesnt do any more than one if you could see us

 

Most people just CC break the debil and leave - heck geared fokls will laugh at me and just run away

 

I will keep playing him because I want to see if Bioware does something or not - if they dont I will leave this game as it will just turn into another Warhammer online .....

Edited February 5, 2012 by Torn

[Killabee]

OPs might be great but Scoundrels are pretty bad now...

[WDSslider]

Gendonut I think your post was well thought out and very well put together, and I do agree that the class is still very playable and still one of the most "fun" to play.

 

I do however feel that these changes were not needed at this point in the game with very little testing done. For example "Jarring strike has a 100% chance to knock the target flat on it's face for 1.5 seconds" I would say more like 60% of the time the target falls on it's back, half of pve mobs when approached and attacked from behind actually turn around when hit and then fall on there backs. This is a change that could have been addressed, Shouldn't abilities work correctly before they are deemed in need of "balancing"? Of course if you want to bactstab the mob for w/e reason you need to run through them at least halfway and waste dps time. The change to 1.5 seconds was too much IMO 2 sec would have been more effective to not effect solo PVE play as much and "balance" PVP out a little more. Yes, you can stun lock one enemy now, and as long as they don't have a escape up you will do some damage but it was nice to be able to save our stun for defense and escape since we are a bit light on those abilities but I am sure we will find other fun ways to kill people still with the change.

 

My second concern is that Operative is a very unique class to play and not a lot of people are choosing to play them. We are extremely under represented in PVP, but instead of taking a look at PVP as a whole and deciding what was needed to "balance" all classes the constant complaining from the majority of people who may come across an Op in PVP once or twice every few matches seems to have changed our class for us. That seems a little sad and to make matters worse the class was changed because of one aspect of the game, and that was PVP, there was no reason to "balance" and not enough testing done at end game to decide if The armour debuff was allowing for more than intended dps on boss fights.

 

I am just talking, trying to understand and bringing my personal opinions to the table, I have played MMO's for a few years and I understand the need for balance and the response from developers at times because of the population but this game is new. It will take a little while before most players become accustomed to other classes, and I am not talking about the exceptional players because they are not the majority, but the main population to develop strategies to overcome obstacles that other classes have and balance the game out for the most part themselves. If people were rolling OP's because they felt that they would have an advantage in PVP or PVE or w/e then I could see a problem developing but it seems to me that people are rolling other classes for that reason, there is a huge need for people to pick up the operative class and if it means that you get to own someone every three minutes so be it, every class has the ability when played correctly to absolutely destroy someone else from time to time I think that makes PVP interesting in this game vs others MMO's, and yes even snipers can rip it up from time to time. In my mind and I do not disagree that our burst was high but I do believe that it gave our class a niche that had other players at least considering not standing on top of ledges away from there team picking off people or healing up to at least 75% after fights "just incase" an OP was in the match. Now well, I know when I play my Sorcerer I chuckle a bit when I get attacked by an Op, and that is kind of saddening.

 

For those of you who took the time to read this I would like to thank you and I hope that this conversation about the class can be continued enough to at least perk the interest of the developers and possibly have the idea floating around that the game was fine the way it was, it is fine the way it is now, and just let us play. All the issues will surface at a time when they need to be fixed, there is never a reason to jump all over some nerf this and "balance" that posts on the forums. Good players will always wipe the floor with poor players it doesn't matter if you 3 shot them or 25 shot them it is inevitable. Please do not let the poor players decide the future direction of this game, it takes the fun out of it and it saps the intensity needed for a successful long term MMO.

[Jimra]

I'm starting to accept that the Op is probably a balanced class now. However, several other classes remain severely OP still, which is the problem. If you don't believe me go try a sorcerer or merc (something I have started recently).

 

It frustrates me that, for example, a mercs 30m spammable attack does almost exact damage as our melee opener from stealth that actually takes time/effort to set up - taking into account how long you have to wait to restealth sometimes, or how many times you randomly get caught by an AoE and knocked out of stealth.

[pairadox]

I would like to comment on your post. I am hoping this is conveyed in a respectful tone, and that you understand this is most definately not an attempt to be rude, or pick a fight with you. I am more interested in discussing this situation with you, for two reasons. To gain knowledge, and share what I have learned through practical experience. Its anecdotal, without math to back it up. I apologize for that. With that in mind, Im quoting and answering to try and keep my thoughts on track.

 

 

This is something I just had to get off of my chest. Another Operative on my server recently told me he was rerolling to another class because of this "over nerf." The following is my response to those who feel the same way about Operatives after this so-called over nerf:

 

Anyone that thinks Concealment Operative's are useless in PvP aren't doing it right. Either a lack of skill or gear, or both. We just got away with the single best "nerf" we could have ever hoped for and the forums are running rampant with cries of "we suck now" and "how could you do this to us."

 

Let's go over the details:

 

I dont diagree that concealment operatives are still viable in pvp. They are, very much so. However, because of the classes inherent glass cannon aspect pvping as a freshly minted 50 with little or no gear is quite possibly the single most frustrating experience, short of playing a tank and having pillow fights. (The hour long fights where two tanks and two healers basically nickle and dime each other.)

 

 

1. Overall damage was reduced by lowering Hidden Strike by approximately 20%. Everyone thinks this is something to cry about. Were 7k+ crits pre 1.1.1 a little crazy with no setup AND from stealth? Yes, even against a well geared battlemaster player we were able to hit for 6.5k+ without shields or defensive abilities up on the target. Whether or not we are supposed to be a "burst" class does not mean 4 or 5 shotting someone with 500+ expertise should happen.

 

I disagree with the term cry. I think dismay is much more correct, at least in my case. The effect on the PvP side was very pronounced. Where I was seeing 3.4k HS crits in little to no pvp gear, I was now seeing 1.8 crits-2.1 crits. This is severly damaging for a glass cannon. You see, concealment operatives really dont have very viable defenses. They cant go toe to toe with really, any classes for a prolonged period of time.

 

First off Evasion is either bugged, laggy on my server, or just plain doesnt work. It takes a full second after pressing the button for it to take effect. Further, It doesnt work against force attacks. Which means your one oh crap button is pretty useless when taking on four AC's.

 

Second Shield probe can take maybe one hit. From anyone thats geared, its more like half a hit before it goes down. That gives you maybe 1 second. Alot of damage goes out in 1 second, and you have no way to mitigate it.

 

This coupled with the fact that your dps is much lower now, means you cant burst down your target and reasonably hope to survive against equally geared/skilled players of any class. We will get to stuns in a moment, but yes they actually were buffed... sort of.

 

Response to 1. Proper use of adrenals and relics on an unprotected player (i.e. no shield or defensive abilities on target at time of Hidden Strike) will still net a well geared operative 4.5-5.5k Hidden Strikes. This is by no means low damage. Just because you can't ROFLPWN someone in 2 hits or survive as many 2v1's does not mean you are useless. It means you need to learn how to use your other abilities properly.

 

Proper use of escape, shields, healing abilities and stims will completely negate that. Which essentially means, operatives are the intelligence check. If you get owned 1v1 by an operative, you werent smart enough to keep yourself shielded, stimmed, or use your abilities. This is not balance. That, is a nerf.

 

2. Jarring Strike stun reduced to 1.5 seconds. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN THIS IS A BUFF. I REPEAT THIS IS A BUFF, NOT A NERF.

 

Response to 2. Now that Jarring Strike no longer fills resolve this opens multiple new opportunities to dominate a target. On a target 1v1 with an empty resolve bar give this a try. Acid Blade>Relic>Adrenal>Hidden Strike>Cloaking Screen>Acid Blade>Hidden Strike>Debilitate>Acid Blade>Backstab>Shiv>Laceration. If they aren't dead by then they have a healer on them and you are on the wrong target.

That paints a pretty picture. Assuming several things.

1) They have no aoe to drop you out of stealth the minute you go back into it.

2) They are completely alone, and have no cooldowns to use.

3) Their team is comprised of completely clueless people who are paying no attention to the guy getting owned five feet away.

 

Again, not a buff. Just because you can chain stun doesnt mean you can dps hard enough for those chain stuns to mean anything. Ive seen and done equal geared against an intelligent player, inquisitor to be exact in Tat...

 

Inquistor is shielded. (hes not an idiot.) He eats the first stun. I drop into stealth. He aoe's, I get knocked back and out of stealth. He kites me and mocks me. Or... he eats the first stun, trinkets out of the second stun, kb's me and roots me, and kites me. OR... the list goes on and on. Heres a light armor wearer, that I should be able to dps down, but because I have no burst anymore, and my sustained is gone as well with the AB nerf.... Im not going to win.

 

Again, not a buff. Looks like a buff. Smells like a buff. But its really not. Not against any competent, halfway intelligent player.

 

3. Acid Blades armor penetration reduced to 30%. This is the worst part of the whole thing but by no means destroys the class. This part of the nerf has a much larger impact on PvE DPS and was a questionable change.

 

Response to 3. The nerf to Acid Blade by no means makes us useless in PvP. Does it take a couple more hits to kill a well geared tank in a warzone? Yes. Is it harder to pull over 500,000 dmg in warzones? Yes, but no where near impossible. Is it making it so that NO ONE is killable and you just get laughed at when you try? Not for me, but if you answered yes then you might want to re-read 1 and 2 above.

 

For people in cent/champ/bm gear... this wasnt AS big of a deal. It was a nerf, but not as hard. The problem is, just because you who quite possibly already has a great deal of pvp gear isnt having a huge issue.... try and imagine a fresh fifty walking into pvp. Since most of the people on my server are cents/champs/bm geared, its already a faceroll experience. Now... try doing that while you get 3 comms... or the same boots six times in a row.

 

Its a nerf.

 

This is barely a nerf for those of us that put in the time to learn our class and gear up appropriately. If you're Valor Rank 30 with 2 pieces of Champion gear then you shouldn't be able to go toe to toe with ANY full champ or battlemaster player. Period. Put the time in and get your gear. This should not discourage you, but make you want to get better. You will get better with time, but being overly impatient seems to be the way of the world now adays.

 

I understand what you're saying. I do, however disagree with it. Because essentially what you're saying is that pvp is about being facerolled by everyone until you get gear. So take it and like it. Thats not really an arguement, so much as acceptance of a poor design thats been passed on down the years.

 

You will not succeed at something you do not fully understand, and don't deserve to succeed at it unless you put the time in to understand it. This game isn't going to hold your hand the whole way. At some point you need to step up and realize all the crying in the world won't make you a better player.

Complete agreement.

However, its still a nerf.

 

To BioWare:

 

Thank you for separating the boys from the men. The "nerf" to Operatives has made our already small community even smaller, but you have given us a truly fun class to play. Those that still refuse to understand that 3 shotting someone, while incredibly fun, is not something that requires skill whatsoever, will never get it.

 

Thanks for the stunlock!

 

- Donut (Belgoth's Beacon)

 

P.S: To all who will respond with hate. Please deposit pitchforks and torches in the bins provided. I am immune to you.

 

Again, I have to disagree.

This nerf hit concealment ops pretty hard in the pve aspect of the game. The pvp is not the main focus of this game. At least not what they sold us on, and thus adversely effecting the main aspect of the game for a minigame is not a well thought out, intelligent response to a need for fine tuning. Its a quick, sloppy patch thrown over a problem to appease a group.

 

Simply nerfing a class fixes nothing. In the operatives case, taking it back to the board, assigning some people, number crunching, and actually putting a little thought into redesigning some aspects of the game would have gone a long way towards reassuring the community that the nerf bat rounds werent emminent.

 

As it stands, this is the first in a list.

Expect more.

And sadly, no matter how you choose to view it. Its still a nerf.

[LordCorvuss]

everyone should watch world of roguecraft (7years old) and see why getting stunned to death is not fun at and all and takes zero skill. why bioware has such a hardon for one of the most hated mechanics in mmos is beyond me. hey look at me im 2 feet away from you but im invisible. stun,stun,stun you die lolz. seriously? again? /unsubscribe... Edited February 5, 2012 by LordCorvuss

[Deviltreh]

Response to 1. Proper use of adrenals and relics on an unprotected player (i.e. no shield or defensive abilities on target at time of Hidden Strike) will still net a well geared operative 4.5-5.5k Hidden Strikes. This is by no means low damage. Just because you can't ROFLPWN someone in 2 hits or survive as many 2v1's does not mean you are useless. It means you need to learn how to use your other abilities properly.

Kinda *********** hard to use damage reduction cooldowns when you don't expect an attack and after using Operative will just lurk till it finishes.

[Izumal]

love the stream donut, very entertaining and you play very well.

 

Is the class broken, nah, I still do well but we still depend on stims and relics to burst and gear separates most on the playing field.

 

Once they nerf expertise and stims, it will be even more difficult.

 

It is easy to proclaim the class is still great with your gear, skill and the pre-mades you run with. Not saying it is broken, but not everyone has those luxuries.

 

Overall, I will still continue to play, it is still very fun.

[Rapto]

Very good post donut.

 

 

Couldn't of said any of it better myself

[hooj]

If you're rolling against pugs, sure, concealment still does fine. Against pre-mades, not nearly as much.

 

The cries of people saying concealment is broken is over-the-top, but realistically, the spec is mediocre at best. As people gain more and more expertise, those hidden strike crits seem more and more pathetic. Is that a big deal? It wouldn't be, if we had better sustained damage. But wait, they nerfed that too, and it wasn't that great to begin with.

 

The problem is that the only thing the spec offered in PvP (that other classes/specs didnt) was the awesome burst. Operatives in general have absolute garbage survivability, utility, and sustained damage. Energy costs on skills are too high, skill cooldowns are too long, very poor defensive cooldowns, no leap/pull/knockback/(super)sprint.

 

I can and do make it work in many cases, but it doesn't change the fact that there are serious gaps in concealment play now. Burst was the only thing that made up for quite a few shortcomings -- if they toned it down by this much, you'd think they'd buff other areas.

 

It's not a matter of "l2p" it's a matter of looking objectively at concealment and ops verses everything else, and saying "hey, if they take this away, we could seriously use some love in other areas."

[Reiina]

Classic scene from a huttsball:

 

One inquisitor rushes to get the ball, I stalk the high places to see the inevitable other inquisitor that will pull the ball carrier, I hit him a bit, get pushed off, he pulls the ball carrier, and while I'm trying to get back up they have already scored.

 

Could I have done better? No.

Could my team have done better? Yes, probably if everyone didn't rush down like idiots at the start...

Can one inquisitor make a difference in huttsball? Yes, a big one.

Can one operative make a difference in huttsball? No.

 

One of the problems I think is that we get so many huttsball where operatives are borderline useless. They are quite decent in other warzones but huttsball makes me want to quit each time I get one...

[Jomps]

First of all awsome read OP it's good to know there is people who get the so called "nerf".

 

ilm playing operaive and only operative I'm one character man. I got 8 pieces of champion gear + some power stacked master craft armors. I have to say that after the patch I have enjoyed the PVP more. The fact that HS dosen't fill the resolve bar is a very big buff for us. Now I actualy have a change against better geared player since I can actualy dominate them better with CC. Also love the fact that I can now effectively kite dot ranged destroy mele classes. I never found killing ppl with in opener enjoyable. Before patch I either obliterated my target with opener or if it was better geared player and survived the opener then I had to suck all the hate coming toward me and dying faster than my initial burst.

 

PVP adjustment +1

 

Im most concerned about pve. As pointed out damdage reduction that don't have too much affect on pvp fight considering resolve bar buff. But this dosn't have anything good for pve. Hard to say how much damage operatives do in operatios. But over all this whole patch sounded more like knee jerk nerf for operative pve. Tho this dosn't concern me since I don't pve that much.

 

PVE adjustment -1

 

 

PS about mercs: don't think they are that big of a problem tho very irritating when they catch us in our pants down. meaning at open ground with distance and us being unstealthed. But I can sa that feeling is mutual with sorcs whitout their bubble up when operative opens up to them. Just remember to abbly sever tendor right after they stand up since they run away to heal them.

 

PSS: about double HS opener. If you are doing it right there is anything your opponent can do to stop it. I freaking do it even on flames. Just do it fast so the hit comes right after the cloak animation.

 

Love2p operatice and will continue to.

[cefan_essaomofo]

Hey man your right. Once you get a tiny bit of gear we are fine in PvP.

 

But the one thing you have kind of skewed is our stuns and the resulting resolve. As normal though there are multiple scenarios here.

 

1) (This is your main problem) you open with jarring and KD the target but you DONT fill resolve. So target is KDed, for 1.5 seconds this lets you get off dart. (For average players, global cooldown is 1.5 seconds so not much wiggle room) !for the record I am normally able to get off a dart with an acid blade backstab! So now heres the issue, we have 3 CC's. 1 breaks with damage, 1 is an opener and 1 is on a 30+ second cooldown. So assuming you arent fighting someone dumb they will take the 1.5 second KD then get up. So if you stun with Debilitate a smart player will then break this follow up stun so they are un-stunnable and therefore leaving you only with your mez, which will break on DMG (I.E your dart) Of course yes this assumes they have their CC breaker and that you darted them, which.

 

Scenario 2) They are stunlocked with no CC breaker, and you hurt the **** out of them. Of course any class would run wild on a class if 1 had no CC breaker up. Thats how this game is designed it seems.

 

 

So really is this a buff? No not really. It makes us less able to stun someone during a fight where both players had equal cooldowns set. Because this actually NEGATES the majority of our ability to stun.

 

 

 

I played a rogue through vanilla WoW so I am very at home with this class.

 

I have 6 champion pieces and the rest of my gear is modded items. (weapon, chest, boots, legs, helm) So really I am not SUPER geared but I am geared just enough to compete now. At 50 until I got a better dagger PvP was rough.

 

(((Edited to clarify my stance on issue)))

 

WE DID NOT GET NERFED. IF YOU THINK WE DID YOU ARE BAD. BUY A NEW DAGGER. THAT IS ALL.

Edited February 5, 2012 by cefan_essaomofo

[cefan_essaomofo]

everyone should watch world of roguecraft (7years old) and see why getting stunned to death is not fun at and all and takes zero skill. why bioware has such a hardon for one of the most hated mechanics in mmos is beyond me. hey look at me im 2 feet away from you but im invisible. stun,stun,stun you die lolz. seriously? again? /unsubscribe...

 

I loled. But you have no idea what your talking about so move along please.

 

P.S. I played a tier 2 rogue.

[Skurkanas]

You got it - there is no reason to be an operative - this guys post summed up: "Concealment Ops are fine because you can still play them" - wow such an astute observation

This.

 

There are 2 things the OP (and the whole l2p-crowd) completely ignore;

 

1. Saying a patch is fine because a class is still playable is neither being pro, nor "adapting". Given the big picture, it's simply defeatism. Because while our burst may have been too high, reducing our burst to that of all the other classes without compensating for the fact that they can dps much easier (due to range, pulls, jumps etc) is simply...

 

2. Bad Balancing.

How I see it, this whole issue isn't so much about the viability of the Operative itself, it's about BWs patch policy as a whole. They implement a nerf...

- 1 day after the Buffstacking-nerf. No way in hell they had any reliable new metrics by that time

- with PvP in mind, but far greater ramifications for PvE

- basically, even buffing PvP

- hitting the least played class with the least utility in both BGs and Flashpoints

- apparently ignoring every factor that is not damage, in their calculations

- ignoring Boss mechanics that already give melee classes a very hard time

- with pretty severe changes. Nerfing stuff by flat out 20% happens in beta, and even then it's considered insensible

- without offering anything to fix or balance the class

 

At the end of the day, this whole thing sounds so much like a half assed, reactionary kneejerk-nerf. It doesn't seem like anybody actually thought this through.

That doesn't bode well for future patches, and If we don't stand up now and rage about it, this likely won't change

Edited February 5, 2012 by Skurkanas

[pairadox]

This.

 

There are 2 things the OP (and the whole l2p-crowd) completely ignore;

 

1. Saying a patch is fine because a class is still playable is neither being pro, nor

"adapting". Given the big picture, it's simply defeatism. Because while our burst may have been too high, reducing our burst to that of all the other classes without compensating for the fact that they can dps much easier (due to range, pulls, jumps etc) is simply...

 

2. Bad Balancing.

How I see it, this whole issue isn't so much about the viability of the Operative itself, it's about BWs patch policy as a whole. They implement a nerf...

- 1 day after the Buffstacking-nerf. No way in hell they had any reliable new metrics by that time

- with PvP in mind, but far greater ramifications for PvE

- basically, even buffing PvP

- hitting the least played class with the least utility in both BGs and Flashpoints

- apparently ignoring every factor that is not damage, in their calculations

- ignoring Boss mechanics that already give melee classes a very hard time

- with pretty severe changes. Nerfing stuff by flat out 20% happens in beta, and even then it's considered insensible

- without offering anything to fix or balance the class

 

At the end of the day, this whole thing sounds so much like a half assed, reactionary kneejerk-nerf. It doesn't seem like anybody actually thought this through.

That doesn't bode well for future patches, and If we don't stand up now and rage about it, this likely won't change

 

This is exactly right.

 

The class is definately playable. The class is still a monster in pug pvp, especially against poorly geared players. The class is however, in need of some redesign. If the idea of a control/high burst class isnt.... say desirable.... thats fine. I get that. I have no problem with it. However, you cant just nerf the single most important aspect of the class, and then say its fixed.

 

Its not fixed. Its still very broken... now however, its broken for the people that spent all that time leveling and gearing an op. Not a smart policy.

 

Lethality is a decent tree, but realistically, if they intend to get away from a "crazy burst dps" class. They need to rework it. What they have shown here is a decided lack of foresight in simply nerfing the class, with no intention of adding some other form of utility or survivability.

 

I love my op. I wont stop playing it. I am looking hard for ways to make it work within the very rigid and somewhat sad framework I have been given.

 

By no means does that entail me saying nothing about a poor tuning and implementation process.

 

And honestly, I would expect other players to get behind that. When it happens to one, its going ot happen to us all.

 

Expect grav shot and tracer spammers to get nerfed. Expect your crazy 9-10k smashes to get nerfed. Its really just a matter of time.

[astrolite]

I'm a BM, but I don't have full BM (just a few items thus far).

 

I looked at my #s for a normal damage rotation that happens over about 10 seconds and, assuming half crit, 1650 DPS. (Debilitate and Sever Tendon were included as they pretty much always are used)

 

I looked at a merc BM spamming tracer missiles. Assuming half of theirs crit - 2733 DPS.

 

They probably do outgear me by a bit, but nothing that would account for a 1k DPS difference (even if the crit rate was lowered)

 

Just a thought.

Edited February 5, 2012 by astrolite

[Mikkeos]

Cars with square tires and no engine are viable too.

You can still push them along nicely if the road is made of halfcircles.