Commando healers, really Bioware?

[Crowleyz]

Anyone else noticed how completely impossible it is for 2-3 people to kill a good geared Commando healer? Heavy armor, defensive cd's, uninterruptable cd, instant healing etc.

 

What is the point of this? Are you just trying to mock people? Hitting them for 90, 100 and then my biggest attacks CRIT for 500. In the meanwhile they are able to heal about 5-10 times that.

 

This entire class is a freaking gimmick, just horrible how you can actually put this in your game. Even if you by some accident manage to interrupt 3 of their heals in a row, with 2-3 people hitting them, they will have lost aproximately 20-40% hp in that time.

 

Anyway, that's my whine, now to my question. How do you intend to adress this?

 

Now, please understand that I have no personal vendetta here, I'm not interested in attempting to destroy a class that seems to basically be a good concept. I'm only interested in a leveling the playing field so to speak.

 

Some people argue that "Oh Commandos/Mercs are so disadvantaged compared to other healers", and yet they are the ones in heavy armor which, in my experience, piss people off more than any of the other classes. Please understand that this is strictly PvP related, if they are worse at healing in Operations, that's a totally different issue. Honestly, I doubt the classes listed that can supposedly "handle" Commandos/Mercs have much problems with the other two healing classes, probably a lot less. That goes for me as well, there is absolutely no point in going after the Commando healer, I simply can not properly damage him, at best I can distract him from healing others for a very very limited amount of time. And yet, if I do not put pressure on him, he outheals my damage easily.

This is how healing should be. Except the healer should actually be killable. Without needing 4-5 people to get him down. Now I understand that Bioware clearly had in mind a "paladin-analogue" if you will when designing this class, but I do feel they have gone slightly overboard here.

 

I do of course understand that there are a lot of different opinions here, and honestly "L2P" is never a good reply to anything. I've been an active PvPer in a myriad of MMO's, even to the point of accepting ingame money for "boosting" others through ratings and whatnot. I will not sit here and claim to be tha ubahgod, if your opinion is that I am the standard to which all badness should be measured, go ahead.

 

However, this class is a bit out of hand at the moment that is my opinion. And I welcome other people's opinion on this matter, wether you agree or not. If you do intend to introduce competitive, rated PvP in this game, you kinda need some semblance of class balance that promotes competitive playing instead of making you the laughing stock of the gaming community. I will freely admit that while watching the Ilum PvP movie after the initial Ilum change was pretty hysterical, but it also made me sad because I knew it would give this game a bad rep to potential players.

 

And something the haters need to understand as well, we don't criticize to be douchebags, we do it because we want the game to improve. Otherwise it's just whining for the sake of whining and that seems like a lot of unecessary whining(especially when people make threads whining about others whining).

Edited February 3, 2012 by Crowleyz

[zeroburrito]

Anyone else noticed how completely impossible it is for 2-3 people to kill a good geared Commando healer? Heavy armor, defensive cd's, uninterruptable cd, instant healing etc etc etc.

 

What is the point of this? Are you just trying to mock people? Hitting them for 90, 100 and then my biggest attacks CRITS for 500. In the meanwhile they are able to heal about 5-10 times that.

 

This entire class is a freaking gimmick, just horrible how you can actually put this in your game. Even if you by some accident manage to interrupt 3 of their heals in a row, with 2-3 people hitting them, they will have lost aproximately 20-40% hp in that time.

 

Anyway, that's my whine, now to my question. How do you intend to adress this?

 

sounds like he had guard on. the tank is squishier than the person guarded. take him out.

[Lushbits]

Anyone else noticed how completely impossible it is for 2-3 people to kill a good geared Commando healer? Heavy armor, defensive cd's, uninterruptable cd, instant healing etc etc etc.

 

What is the point of this? Are you just trying to mock people? Hitting them for 90, 100 and then my biggest attacks CRITS for 500. In the meanwhile they are able to heal about 5-10 times that.

 

This entire class is a freaking gimmick, just horrible how you can actually put this in your game. Even if you by some accident manage to interrupt 3 of their heals in a row, with 2-3 people hitting them, they will have lost aproximately 20-40% hp in that time.

 

Anyway, that's my whine, now to my question. How do you intend to adress this?

 

I've just stopped attacking them with my Operative and go for other targets. Sad but I don't see any really threat to them at the moment. Used to be able to dish out just enough to get them down occasionally, but now it just won't happen.

 

Curious; Is there any class/player out there who feels comfortable with going after equally geared Commandos?

[Crowleyz]

As Assassin at least, nah can't see any way I can even make a dent in their health. Insane amounts of HP, insane amounts of healing, defensive cds and yeah... really horrible.

[ComeAndSee]

(geared) Commando/Merc Healer are absolutely impossible to take down. Sage's fold over when you break their bubble and Operative's can only spam their HOT on themselves to keep alive.

 

I interrupt one heal and they switch to another a microsecond later like I didn't even interrupt them. Impossible to deal with and they're VERY HARD to take down.

[savionen]

As a Shadow I've found them impossible to kill.

 

I don't see Mercenary healers that much though, so I'm not sure if it's just a hard-counter for Shadows, or if they're OP.

 

I imagine something like a Marauder would make quick work of them.

Edited February 3, 2012 by savionen

[pogmahone]

The fact that he was geared has something to do with it. What was his HP? If you are only criting him for 500 then it seems your DPS is way to low.

[thomasdr]

I'm currently running around with 600 expertise and about 16500hp and I can honestly say that 2 proper dps can kill me in no time.

That said there are times when there's 5 people trying to kill me and they don't succeed.

 

Thing is that most people don't really know what they are doing, filling my resolve bar before I use my shield, interrupting my small heal or my power shot instead of my big spammable heal.

 

I actually feel we are in a good place right now. We can't heal for the amounts a sorc or even an operative can heal but we do have good burst single target healing, proper survivability and great support burst damage.

But we're definately not unkillable if you know how to play. Even 1on1 vs certain classes it's hard to win.

[Genesis_Shadow]

Funny... an assassin and a shadow have posted saying they can't down them... yet I am one of the few republic players who can down a certain merc healer on my server. Guess they just aren't hitting their rupts and stuns in the right places.

 

Personally I find pretty much any healer easy to down; unless there is a back-up healer or tank guarding them, in which case I require the same backing me up (healer, obviously, because I'm a tank).

[savionen]

The problem for an Assassin is that their interrupt is on a 12sec (10 sec cooldown). Assuming you interrupt a bigger heal that's a lot of time they can still be casting heals.

 

Assassins are also one of the few worst classes against high armor targets. Assassins only have 2 skills that are not fully reduced by armor, and one is a proc.

 

Side-note: A Commando has as much or more armor than an Assassin tank.

 

Edit: Genesis_Shadow, I tear through sages, but can't touch mercenaries. There's no way to do enough damage to outheal them when your attacks are being reduced 40-55%.

Edited February 3, 2012 by savionen

[Red_Cruiser]

Have to save your stuns for when they are bubbled. Don't fill their resolve bar up too early and try to use your interrupts at the start of the fight before they bubble.

[Oghier]

It makes up for the ease with which you can kill operative healers. Interrupt their single casted heal, and they're probably done

[Genesis_Shadow]

The problem for an Assassin is that their interrupt is on a 12sec (10 sec cooldown). Assuming you interrupt a bigger heal that's a lot of time they can still be casting heals.

 

Assassins are also one of the few worst classes against high armor targets. Assassins only have 2 skills that are not fully reduced by armor, and one is a proc.

 

Side-note: A Commando has as much or more armor than an Assassin tank.

 

I have more than any commando, seeing as I'm sitting pretty on 6.5k armour, I also have WAY more health than any commando (unless for some retarded reason they picked up the vanguard tanking gear, in which case I troll their face off by killing them with basic attacks)

 

I also have a steady 1k dps, give or take, with more if my force crit procs standard crits, and can rupt effortlessly nearly an entire fight because STUNS are rupts, and I have plenty of them. If a commando tries to run? slow. If a commando tries to heal? rupt/stun. If a commando tries to DPS (especially whilst heal specced) I laugh at him hitting <1k damage on me with his heavy hits and proceded to /dance repeatedly. Even if I screw up a stunlock rotation, I just wait out the resolve bar clearing and do it again, and yes I will have that much time because I have obscene self healing capabilities.

[JingleHell]

I run my Guardian with a Commando healer most of the time, and he's terrified of (good) Marauders and Ops in particular, but most good DPS classes can eventually take him. He's actually best against tank types, 1v1.

 

The trick is, a lot of Commandos have a tank with them. Combine Guard and properly mixed taunts (and an Operative is a good target for taunts), and you probably should go for the tank first. Put a buddy on the healer so he's not healing the tank, you'll be adding to the tank's damage through guard anyways, and burst down the tank.

 

Or just separate them. 15 meters throws Guard out the window.

[ForceWelder]

Although I don't play a commando healer I do play the mirror class on the Imp side - Merc Healer.

 

Do they have interrupts?

 

No, the Merc does not. The Powertechs have an interrupt but the Merc doesn't. So I am assuming that the Trooper classes are the same way.

 

What we do have for CC is ...

 

A 4 sec stun

A 1 min stun (ends prematurely on damage or character level)

A single knockback (interrupts casting but doesn't impact group skills)

 

As for the armor, Powertechs can mitigate quite a bit of damage. However as a Merc, I lose quite a bit of that mitigation. The best I have been able to get is around 30% with my near complete champion set. By this weekend I will be getting my battlemaster pieces so these numbers may change.

 

As for the heals, the Merc has three main heals, one ultralight aoe heal, and and an auto attack heal which can only be used on another target.

 

Two of the heals are tied to each other. When one is interrupted so is the other. This causes 1/2 of the healing options available to suddenly be unavailable. And should you interrupt the main healing spell ... then all that is left for the healer to use is two heals which have lengthy cool downs or a stim.

 

As for the AoE heal, we can use it on ourselves, but it does ultra light healing. Even if it crits it doesn't even replace 1000 health. It also has a cool down.

 

If you attack a trooper with over 18k hp, odds are they are in battlemaster gear. And quite frankly all bets are off at that point. I have seen some heavy armor users with over 21k health and who are impossible to drop. It has nothing to do with heals, it has everything to do with damage mitigation and expertise level.

 

Wether the Merc or Commando classes are like that once they get this gear, I don't know.

 

if a class with interrupts is having trouble taking down a healer, I can't help but wonder if they are using their interrupts efficiently. I know a powertech who can spam interrupts every 6 - 8 seconds. In a dual, he all but shuts down my healing completely.

 

If you play a class without interrupts then you are wasting your time even attacking a healer to begin with. Without those interrupts in play they can easily fix any damage you do. I once with a solid two minutes in a pvp match with another player. He did eventually win. But that was only because I tried to do both dps and healing and my heat buildup became an issue. Had I stuck with healing, him and I might still be on Ilum duking it out.

Edited February 3, 2012 by ForceWelder

[sang]

I'm just going to go ahead and say most people here have not played against a really skilled operative healer before. While we lack the overall healing and utility of sorcs and the survivability of commandos, we have our own niche when played correctly. Ask anyone who has queued with or against me in WZs frequently, I'm a tough sob to kill.

[Ashanor]

The problem for an Assassin is that their interrupt is on a 12sec (10 sec cooldown). Assuming you interrupt a bigger heal that's a lot of time they can still be casting heals.

 

If Kinetic you also have a knock down out of stealth and of course force stun. If speced Infiltration you have low slash (incapacitate) and once again force stun. You need to be using these as interrupts. I am not saying taking out a Commando healer is easy, but with proper timing it is possible.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Ashanor

[Ashanor]

I'm just going to go ahead and say most people here have not played against a really skilled operative healer before. While we lack the overall healing and utility of sorcs and the survivability of commandos, we have our own niche when played correctly. Ask anyone who has queued with or against me in WZs frequently, I'm a tough sob to kill.

 

With an AoE CC and a vanish why wouldn't you be?

[SWImara]

Most likely dude had Guard on him, a healer + a tank is a pretty brutal combo in this game (regardless of the 30% debuff) but pwning a healer solo should be no problem. Less difficult than downing a competent tank solo imo.

[Crowleyz]

Even if I screw up a stunlock rotation, I just wait out the resolve bar clearing and do it again, and yes I will have that much time because I have obscene self healing capabilities.

 

So you're talking about a fight spanning easily several minutes here, and also, we're talking about Battlemaster Commandos. A certain Commando on my server was able to hold off 5 players for 2 minutes alone in the basecontrol warzone... can't remember what it's called.

 

Also,

 

Check out:

 

2v6 there

[Crowleyz]

I'm just going to go ahead and say most people here have not played against a really skilled operative healer before. While we lack the overall healing and utility of sorcs and the survivability of commandos, we have our own niche when played correctly. Ask anyone who has queued with or against me in WZs frequently, I'm a tough sob to kill.

 

I agree, operative healers can be quite awesome if people know how to play them. But compared to a geared up Commando/merc they are playfull little kittens.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Crowleyz

[Soulcheg]

Insane amounts of HP

 

~16000 in battlemaster

 

insane amounts of healing

 

4500-5000, never seen more. And that with 2.5 second cast.

 

defensive cds and yeah.

 

One. I mean O-N-E, shield -25% damage for 15 second with a 2 minute CD. No absorb shield, no interrupts, no force speed, nothing.

 

really horrible.

 

Yes, that's really horrible.

[exphryl]

Make friends with a geared Pyro PT (or Vanguard Equiv)

 

Then laugh at this healer.

[-sasori]

The problem for an Assassin is that their interrupt is on a 12sec (10 sec cooldown). Assuming you interrupt a bigger heal that's a lot of time they can still be casting heals.

 

Assassins are also one of the few worst classes against high armor targets. Assassins only have 2 skills that are not fully reduced by armor, and one is a proc.

 

Side-note: A Commando has as much or more armor than an Assassin tank.

 

Edit: Genesis_Shadow, I tear through sages, but can't touch mercenaries. There's no way to do enough damage to outheal them when your attacks are being reduced 40-55%.

 

You are in a big suprise if you actually start to see the armor values of commandos.

And an even bigger suprise if you figure out what armor actually mitigates in contrary to damage types floating around.

 

 

But hey, keep blaming the vanity armor looks of a commando.

[Eszi]

makes a free kill for senti with watchman+combat hybrid - use prec slash with master strike and blade storm, then use overload saber and cauterize (elemental damage bypasses armor)