The crafting market is trashed

[Fudspud]

Here is why I feel the economy is in trouble for crafters.

 

1) If you do the math more credits can be made selling materials than in selling crafted items.

 

2) Mods that can be purchased via commendation vendors are not bop and I believe they should be. They are flooding the galactic trade market with mods that are sold well below what can be crafted. You will always lose money trying to match vendor mods which contain the exact same stats as crafted items. If crafted items had stats even a little bit high I believe it would help a lot.

 

3) On average, on the server I play only get about 5k to 10k profit on any crafted item

 

Green earpieces cost 6,800 to crafts and sell for about 6k to 9k. that's a lot of work for a two to 3k profit.

 

Blue earpieces cost 9,200 to craft and sell for about 4k to 7k because of vendor and loot drops with the exact same stats. If you proc a modable blue earpiece you can get about 10k profit. Why would you buy a blue item when for about 10k more you can get an artifact one? The green and blue craftable item market is dead.

 

Artifact ear pieces cost around 26k to craft and sell between 20k and 40k. With the competition you are lucky to sell 1 or 2 a day netting you about a 20k average income unless you are undercut and sell nothing or are lucky enough to crit an augment mod slot. I just purchase a modable artifact ear piece for 40k while writing this.

 

It takes about 10 reverse eng attempts to proc a blue schematic and about the same to level that to a purple. The problem is you sometimes proc a worthless recipe that contains a bonus like presence. You have a better chance at making money buying items that are crafted at cost and hoping to resell them for a small profit.

 

Doing 2 heroic missions a day will net you more credits than all the profit you may or may not get from crafting. By selling same stat loot drops you can always undercut crafters and it's pure profit.

 

In short I feel having crafted items with a slight stat bonus over items that can be bought from the commendations vendors would help crafters actually make their professions worth while. The thing is I really enjoy crafting but my boss told me once " you can work for free or you can drink beer for free". Now i need a beer.

[Cleet_Xia]

Of course it is in trouble for lvl 50 gear. Because that is what everyone has been racing to. Buying up all the mats off the GTN at idiot prices so they can spam their way to 400. Profit margins of %50 are still great.

 

1) Have you looked at lowbie blue gear? In most cases the margin is 300 %-400 % of mat cost - because no one is making lowbie blue gear. Because they can make more money doing PvP.

 

2) Comm vender gear is still harder to get than credits that would buy crafted gear- if anyone was selling it.

 

3) People are asking stuuupid prices for their crafted gear- and wondering why no one buys it. There is no sense in a lowbie spending credits on crafted purples- but blues can be financially viable.

 

So yeah crafting is a little broken in the respect that people are not selling blues for lowbies.

[BuddahsPalm]

1) If you do the math more credits can be made selling materials than in selling crafted items.

That is a narrow view of the 'complete' value of crafting.

 

Material prices today are probably inflated because there are a lot of people "chasing" crits or RE-grinding. Meaning, multiple sets of materials are being consumed for each crafted good. This increases demand for materials, while crafted goods prices largely remain static (due to lack of desirability, high competition and low demand)

 

or...

 

There is either some non-credit/intangible value above and beyond for the crafted items (this logically follows the above - the value of the crafted good is not the good itself, but the potential to be RE'd into something better)

 

...or a lot of people are just wasteful/don't care/are having fun enjoying crafting regardless of profitability.

 

or all of the above..

 

If this were not the case, then crafting would have not sufficient perceived value and the required materials would not be nearly as desirable either.

[DarthTHC]

The OP describes the same problem that exists in all MMO economies. The problem stems from the fact that... people are stupid.

 

There. I said it.

 

There are a whole lot of people who play these games who don't have any concept of "profit" or "time = money".

 

They'll buy an expensive stack of raw materials, grind up their crafting skill by making stuff, then dump that same stuff back on the GTN. And they'll take the financial loss on that transaction happily because of some combination of "paying to improve my crafting skill" and "I had fun" and even sometimes "I gathered all the raw mats myself so they didn't cost me anything".

 

The only effective way to combat this is to realize people are doing this financially ruinous stuff and react appropriately. Don't compete with them. You can't beat them at this game. Don't buy their stuff up and repost it at more realistic prices. They'll keep going because they don't care about profit or their time.

 

Instead, figure out what they're buying in raw materials and post those.

 

You can also figure out what they're not making and post those.

 

In this economy, the only differentiator is price. You cannot win by competing on price with people who don't care if they lose money.

Edited February 2, 2012 by DarthTHC

[DiLune]

I would kill to buy a blue cunning barrel for my companions on my server. Literally, everything is Aim. But no one makes them to fill the niche.

 

I would kill to buy Guardian mods and armor for myself as I level up. But no one is making them.

 

I am making a killing selling color crystals and enhancements in the level 20-40 range on my server because no one else is making them.

[jdnyc]

To start with the GTN is garbage. At least we have one I suppose, but it sucks. The way the search function works and how things are listed are part of the problem.

 

You bring very good points. At end game crafting becomes pointless because dailies and flashpoints and PvP give better stuff than anything you can really craft - sans a rare schematic drop.

 

Leveling up there's some incentive to sell things as mentioned in other posts. But if you have a level 50 doing the Dailies every day, you will get mods/armor/enhancements better than you can make. You will also get tons of money.

 

So let's review. Level 50 characters make all the money the need doing dailies. They get the gear/mods from doing dailies. Means at end game the situation the OP is talking about only gets worse.

[Jerid]

The OP describes the same problem that exists in all MMO economies. The problem stems from the fact that... people are stupid.

 

There. I said it.

 

There are a whole lot of people who play these games who don't have any concept of "profit" or "time = money".

 

They'll buy an expensive stack of raw materials, grind up their crafting skill by making stuff, then dump that same stuff back on the GTN. And they'll take the financial loss on that transaction happily because of some combination of "paying to improve my crafting skill" and "I had fun" and even sometimes "I gathered all the raw mats myself so they didn't cost me anything".

 

The only effective way to combat this is to realize people are doing this financially ruinous stuff and react appropriately. Don't compete with them. You can't beat them at this game. Don't buy their stuff up and repost it at more realistic prices. They'll keep going because they don't care about profit or their time.

 

Instead, figure out what they're buying in raw materials and post those.

 

You can also figure out what they're not making and post those.

 

In this economy, the only differentiator is price. You cannot win by competing on price with people who don't care if they lose money.

 

No there's a much simpler explanation, but "hardcore crafters" don't get it.

Most people don't do Tradeskills because they're trying to play "Sim Tycoon Online".

Most peole do tradeskills because they find it a pleasuarable hobby to do in the game.

 

To use a bad anaolgy....

It's just like saying "People that go out and buy latch hook kits at the store are idiots! They could hire on migrant workers to make latch hook rugs at a fraction of the cost and time and sell their goods for a real profit!"

It's a hobby, not a vocation for them. They don't care that they end up loosing more then they make. It's the act of making the item, not the cost.

 

The big problem is that you don't see these "casual crafters" on the boards... they don't care enough to post here.

[Saldrex]

I would kill to buy a blue cunning barrel for my companions on my server. Literally, everything is Aim. But no one makes them to fill the niche.

 

I would kill to buy Guardian mods and armor for myself as I level up. But no one is making them.

 

I am making a killing selling color crystals and enhancements in the level 20-40 range on my server because no one else is making them.

 

OMG I have been searching for cunning pieces on the GTN for weeks now as well, though mainly searching for cunning bracers and belt, something better than greens would be nice for my companions. All medium armor is strength on my server.

 

 

As for the materials cost more than the goods you craft thing. Materials intrinsically have more value, they just do. They can be turned into what ever you want, they can be used for skill ups etc. They can become any of the items that you can craft them into, with the crafted item there is nothing you can do, one singular purpose, use them. If you cannot use the crafted item the value is not there. Buying mats and crafting tends to be a lost cause in most game unless it is almost impossible to have max crafting / brutal to level up, something more like it was in SWG where is was impractical for most people to raise an alt just to craft their own gear let alone get good enough to craft top end gear.

 

A reason to craft at an apparent loss is that it is not a loss, if you farm mats yourself and can sell at any value you determine fit for the work you put in, it is not always about making as much as possible on every unit of the materials you harvest but sometimes about moving more product for unit time. Flooding the GTN is a lesson in futility if you are trying to sell vast quantities of materials but crafting some and selling it for a lower unit cost can bring in a higher revenue per unit time. It is not always about making the most per unit at all if I put up 100 stacks of a material I am very likely to be underbid by many people before I sell them all and will be refunded much of what I put up and if I farm a lot as well and do not move it all faster I would end up with too much and nothing to do with it myself if my only goal is to sell it.

 

I know I have crafted many items at apparent losses but due to the fact that I usually farm in most MMOs and find it much more efficient than selling all the materials as they are.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Saldrex

[Obbu]

I dont think its so much that people are stupid:

 

It stems from an inability to discern what credits are actually worth.

 

Even by level 50, you are still not sure what things are worth - as such, people get their lvl 50 epic patterns and list them for a tiny fraction of what they are worth.

 

Couple this with the fact that people who have been REing while leveling are used to being broke, and you create a situation where most fledgling (just hit 50) crafters are completely clueless about what things are worth.

 

I think it also may be exacerbated slightly by the fact that implants and earpieces are the only 'gear' that cyber/bio can craft, and people spam them a bit more as a result.

 

I'm not personally either of those professions - so i cannot comment, but i would be of the opinion that these items need more of a unique benefit than their current 'stat stick' implementation.

 

inc theorycrafting:

 

Implants could have regen clickies, cleanse clickies, alacrity surges, CC breaks and so on.

 

Earpieces could have unique aoe buffs, increase range on attacks, or whatever.

 

Those are just random crazy ideas off the top of my head - take them with a grain of salt.

 

But they need to itemise them better than just 'lots of cunning' or whatever they have now.

[PhoR]

To start with the GTN is garbage. At least we have one I suppose, but it sucks. The way the search function works and how things are listed are part of the problem.

 

I agree, and hope the interface improves pretty soon.

 

However; I'm also hoping that they get rid of the three separate trade networks.

Combining them would increase supply pretty drastically, which will help normalize prices significantly.

 

Even better would be making it function cross-server, but I think that might be too much to ask for.

[DiLune]

Psychologically, I have found that people will pay well for a blue piece of gear but shy away from a purple quality piece. They feel like replacing a purple is a big deal while replacing a blue is something they do in every MMO.

 

REing to get purples while you level is nearly pointless, in my opinion. Get the blue and make plenty of profit off of it because people are plenty happy to cycle mods/gear. They don't want greens, they don't want to "pay" for purples that will only last a short time.

[BeskarBill]

Any economy if left alone will set it's own prices. Crafting items are only worth what someone was willing to pay for it that day. I've seen 2 pieces of aluminum on the GTN for 1000 credits, which is crazy but it was the only Aluminum available that day so if your not willing to farm it yourself you pay the price. With items, buyers set the market so if AIM is a skill that everyone wants and you can make a mod or item with heavy AIM bonuses, you can blow off the suggested retail and jack up the price knowing it will be snatched up. I think the game just hasn't been out long enough for the market to stabilize yet.

[PhoR]

Any economy if left alone will set it's own prices....

...I think the game just hasn't been out long enough for the market to stabilize yet.

 

The problem that we're running into is that the economy is way too small and the allotted amount of time that you can leave items up is FAR too short for prices to stabilize like you suggest.

 

There could be 100 auctions up for AIM heavy items up one day and they could all sell out right away, but if I'm looking at the GTN the next day trying to find out if AIM items are selling or not and I see 0 items up, how am I supposed to know if they're selling or if no-one is posting them because they're NOT selling?

 

We're not given enough data from the GTN interface to make informed decisions about buying OR selling, and that is exacerbated by the tiny size of the economy on most servers because they split it into 3 completely separate networks and nothing trades cross-server.

[SpankyMcFlych]

I agree with that. The market is too small. Most of the time you can't find what you're looking for. Need raw mats? Chances are nobody is selling any. So the price never settles at any real equilibrium.

 

Everything is hit or miss whether it will even be on there.

 

Is my server dying? Have they set server populations too low? Who knows, but judging by the borked economy it's one of those or both.

[CriticalMasses]

Of course it is in trouble for lvl 50 gear. Because that is what everyone has been racing to. Buying up all the mats off the GTN at idiot prices so they can spam their way to 400. Profit margins of %50 are still great.

 

1) Have you looked at lowbie blue gear? In most cases the margin is 300 %-400 % of mat cost - because no one is making lowbie blue gear. Because they can make more money doing PvP.

 

2) Comm vender gear is still harder to get than credits that would buy crafted gear- if anyone was selling it.

 

3) People are asking stuuupid prices for their crafted gear- and wondering why no one buys it. There is no sense in a lowbie spending credits on crafted purples- but blues can be financially viable.

 

So yeah crafting is a little broken in the respect that people are not selling blues for lowbies.

 

Some people overcharge but the fact of the matter is that there is a huge cost involved, in say, producing enough purples to have it proc an augment slot. Not only that but the amount of missions it takes to grab the materials you need are off the charts.

[firesprite_ea]

After reaching lvl 50 and starting on dailies I quick crafting and selling anything at all.

Reason - I do not know what to do with the money. Seriously, I see absolutely no reason to get more creds as I have no ways of spending them. Dailies give you absurd amounts very very quickly. I think you get 100k to 150k from those dailies and they take only 1 hour to finish (we have a group of three ppl so we do all the quests together). Even if you do it alone and skip some heroics (though there are always ppl LFG for those) you get abt 10k from each quest... and quest itself takes 5 mins to complete.

 

P.S. Prices for crafted goods were not that high on The Progenitor. I sold lvl 47 purp enhancements for 35k but with the price for Nova gems (you need 4) the profit is actually very low (gems go for abt 6-7k, so 4 is 24-28k). Purple implants cost abt 50k but then it takes forever to sell those.

In the end, aside from the stupid and ugly speeder for 1 500 000 there is nothing to spend money on.

 

P.P.S. Oh and pls do not start on "repair bills". Sure, you spend creds on those but ... come on, the income is so crazy even a 100k is trash money by then.

[Dabrixmgp]

The OP describes the same problem that exists in all MMO economies. The problem stems from the fact that... people are stupid.

 

 

 

No not really. Lets use WoW as an example. Gems made fron JC and enchants from enchanters are basically the same as mods made by a cybertech. But heres the catch. YOU MUST BUY GEMS AND ENCHANTS FROM PLAYERS IN WOW. There is no gem vendor nor enchant vendor like there is in this game. Sure head and shoulder enchants can only be bought with rep but the rest rely on the players to make, which is the way it should be.

 

Heres how you start fixing crafting:

Just remove the commendation vendors. None, no more, all gone. Either you buy crafted gear, loot it, or get it from quest rewards.

[Ironcleaver]

People notice real fast when someone starts buying up materials; in my case T6 Purple Irons from UT. Bought them all up the other day, not one left on the market - did it again later that day, and again the next morning. Then the same Iron went from 7k~9k per unit to 18k~25k per unit. I didn't buy any, and i'm sure no one else did either at those prices. Now, a day or so later, prices are back down to roughly 9k~11k per unit.

 

And for not making any profit with Armormech? If I can get iron for 10k per unit, I can double my investment with the finished product; roughly 22k to craft and sell the final product for 40k. If I get a mastercraft, I sell for 100k, almost 5x my initial investment. I restock daily. Why do people pay these prices? Several reasons but I'd like to believe that people are finally waking up and seeing that player crafter gear blows away orange gear and dose hold it's own against lower raid gear.

 

On my server Jedi are crying out for a sythweaver. I get tells all the time asking if I can make X with Willpower, or Y with strength. I could, but I have my hands full as it is just making stuff for Defensive Vanguards, and Crazy Critting Commandos at the moment. :-/

 

The only downsides I've found to armormech is: Time (due to the RNG), and yeah, the stuff isn't the best looking. :-/

[Ironcleaver]

Heres how you start fixing crafting:

Just remove the commendation vendors. None, no more, all gone. Either you buy crafted gear, loot it, or get it from quest rewards.

 

I like this.

[Fubbik]

Heres how you start fixing crafting:

Just remove the MOD commendation vendors. None, no more, all gone. Either you buy crafted gear, loot it, or get it from quest rewards.

 

Fixed your post.

I see nothing wrong with the equipment vendors. They usually only stock two slots of items which are outleveled once you leave the planet.

Removing the mod vendors would a) open up the market for mod crafters and b) open up the market for blue/purple crafts since orange ones would be MUCH less used.

[Rumblegut]

I have been making good coin selling blue +aim and +cunning implants up to lvl 37, which is the highest I can make at present. When I checked the market I noticed it was almost all +str and +will.

 

Like others I have noticed a distinct lack of enhancements, barrels, augments, and even crafted armor and weapons on the AH. I do wish they would give armament makers blue and better vibroknives, as an Operative finding a knife anywhere near my lvl seems impossible. Partly because you lvl so fast just doing the questlines.

[Viper_RedHand]

Three words:

 

Price. To. Sell.

[Suntar]

i think the above poster is refering to the daily commendation vendor. on belsavis and illum. They sell epic lvl 49/50 implants when the highest you can craft is epic lvl 47 ones.

[Battilea]

In my experience, it is a mix of factors. A big one is, indeed, that people are stupid. But another is mastercrafted items.

 

The existence of these coupled with the horrid return when RE'ing things, encourages the flooding of the market with their non-augment slotted cousins.

 

Basically, say I am a crafter for a guild focused on the high end. That means I want to make good stuff. And that means the extra 28 to a stat from an augment. As such, the goal of my crafting is not to make purples, but to make purples with augment slots. The ones without it? That's a cost I want to offset some loss from, but it isn't what I want. Mastercraft or bust.

 

So selling the sideproduct at cost or a slight loss is fine, need to move volume, must make augment slots.

 

It is, in short, inevitable.

 

That said, you can still make the system work as is.

 

Me, I make a decent income off earrings. I'm on one of the highest population servers, Imperial side, so the market is flooded. How do I make money then? Simple, I charge what I believe to be a fair price, based on the cost of materials, that being 50k for a purple earring. Others charge less, I don't care. I charge 50k. I've got 7 or so good recipes, no junk like presence. And I keep 2 of each up on the exchange. When others undercut, their stuff sells, but if they don't keep supply on hand, mine will sell at my prices when theirs aren't on the market.

 

And then there's identifying the right niche. Some things I've exploited or been looking for but nobody provides the goods on my server:

 

1. Cunning bracers. Making nice cash on these right now, which is helping to fund my attempt to get the 2nd tier purple. Put 2 up a day, sell 'em both at 70k a pop.

 

2. Assassin tank focused bracers. Weren't available with the stats I wanted. Got my buddy making these now, trying to learn the T2 purple. He's selling them nicely. Belts are also lacking.

 

3. Tank focused implants. There just aren't that many. And none with the right stats I want for my assassin. Trying to learn this recipe myself now, but 100+ blues in, no luck yet.

 

4. Level 48 reusable biochem stuff. Those slacking biochems just seem to be focused on making DPS and healer implants. My tank hit 50. Know what I bought? Max level reusable heal and willpower stim. Broke down and bought a 40 end/def stim as well. No luck finding a 48 one yet, though at least one person is catering to the willpower stim market. But a super easy niche for someone to fill. Stock 2 of each 48 one, for all 6 stats (including presence) and the healing kit. It'll sell to people with biochem who just want to be able to use these things, not learn how to make 'em.

 

And so on.

 

Market potential is out there. Just got to find it.

[KEKHAN]

I make Force Focus purples for different levels which I sell on the GTN. It makes a decent profit if you've got a lot of time online to be searching for the materials.

 

The Corusca Gems you get around 2 gems per 10 x 2.5k Treasure hunts. You need 2 of these plus the other materials that go with it and the fact that it takes an hour to craft I sell them for 45k. I think it's a reasonable price.

 

I spend all my money on crafting medpack stacks (Most of which are very expensive) and Fortitude Stims I get from Med droid for 3.5k as they are 15k a pop on the GTN!

Edited February 7, 2012 by KEKHAN