Please, Don't Roll on Items for Another Class in Your Team

[ferroz]

If there is a HUMAN PLAYER that needs it as an upgrade it goes to that player (or rolled against by other players that need it for their character). Why are people ignoring the fundamental looting rules of MMOs? Anyone who thinks the jedi who rolled on a cunning item was ok is just greedy.

 

PLAYER UPGRADE > companion upgrade

PLAYER UPGRADE > selling for credits

 

LP2

players can't wear the items that are looted in game.

 

the player characters (ie, the protagonist and his companions) of the player can wear the items. I don't see why your prioritization of one over the other is the correct one.

 

anyone who thinks it is OK to tell another player that their wants are less important than his wants is just being greedy and selfish.

[Creed_Buhallin]

If there is a HUMAN PLAYER that needs it as an upgrade it goes to that player (or rolled against by other players that need it for their character).

We actually all agree on this.

 

The difference of opinion is that many people see companions as an extension of their character. You say "If a human player needs it as an upgrade" as a filter to exclude companions, but I see the item as coming to me, to enhance my play, regardless of which tab of my character sheet it goes on.

[Eldren]

it's unwritten rule that if you are going to sell/vendor/give to an alt, it is considered greed.

 

welcome to MMOs

 

Really? If it's unwritten, how do you know it's a rule?

 

If you think it's a rule, and you wind up in a party with those who agree, then fine, for your party, it's a rule.

 

But don't assume that's always going to be the case. If you have even one person in the party who thinks it's fine to roll for a companion, then even if they consider companions alts (and we have no objective rule stating they are), it's no longer a rule, just your opinion, which doesn't obligate them to your preferred method of distribution.

[Irusan]

Companions rolls are no different than offspec rolls in other games. The only difference is that after the first instance in TOR, your companion will likely never enter into a flash point again. So, you could almost argue that needing for companions in a group environment in TOR is worse than needing for offspec in games like WoW and Rift because at least you could use your offspec in a group environment later on in those games.

 

I am in favor of adding a companion need button, so it goes Need>Comp. Need>Greed>Pass. This won't go over well in the "I want to need on everything that drops" camp, I am sure, but it seems like a good idea.

 

Truth be told, I have yet to have the misfortune of grouping with ANYONE of that particular mindset. I can't help but feel even they don't feel their argument is valid, but are more here to relive their glory days on the Princeton Debating Team or some such nonsense.

 

"Hey, lets pick a very unpopular and ludicrous side to this argument and debate it until people see it our way just for a laugh."

[ferroz]

I am in favor of adding a companion need button, so it goes Need>Comp. Need>Greed>Pass. This won't go over well in the "I want to need on everything that drops" camp, I am sure, but it seems like a good idea.

It doesn't go over well for the "my priorities are different than yours" camp either.

 

Truth be told, I have yet to have the misfortune of grouping with ANYONE of that particular mindset. I can't help but feel even they don't feel their argument is valid, but are more here to relive their glory days on the Princeton Debating Team or some such nonsense.

 

"Hey, lets pick a very unpopular and ludicrous side to this argument and debate it until people see it our way just for a laugh."

is anyone actually arguing for that, aside from one-off posts here and there?

[Setanian]

I am in favor of adding a companion need button, so it goes Need>Comp. Need>Greed>Pass. This won't go over well in the "I want to need on everything that drops" camp, I am sure, but it seems like a good idea.

 

Truth be told, I have yet to have the misfortune of grouping with ANYONE of that particular mindset. I can't help but feel even they don't feel their argument is valid, but are more here to relive their glory days on the Princeton Debating Team or some such nonsense.

 

"Hey, lets pick a very unpopular and ludicrous side to this argument and debate it until people see it our way just for a laugh."

 

This is just another attempt to inflict your rule on everyone else.

 

Let me ask you a question.. We have proven beyond doubt, that out way is fair. Why will you not accept it?

[VanorDM]

They could roll Need on the blue item because it's an upgrade for their companion, of course.

 

That is my point. Which I guess I didn't make clearly enough.

 

The people who insist that you can only roll Need for an item that is an upgrade and that you will equip on your character. Are in fact violating the first part of that rule, if they have an orange item on.

 

Since as far as I can tell, no Blue item will be an upgrade over an equal level orange item. As such, the only real purpose for that blue item will be either to equip it on your character, because you do not have an orange item yet. Equip it on your companion. Or sell it to a vendor/GTN.

 

Clearly the 3rd option is something you should select Greed from, not Need.

[Eldren]

I am in favor of adding a companion need button, so it goes Need>Comp. Need>Greed>Pass. This won't go over well in the "I want to need on everything that drops" camp, I am sure, but it seems like a good idea.

 

Truth be told, I have yet to have the misfortune of grouping with ANYONE of that particular mindset. I can't help but feel even they don't feel their argument is valid, but are more here to relive their glory days on the Princeton Debating Team or some such nonsense.

 

"Hey, lets pick a very unpopular and ludicrous side to this argument and debate it until people see it our way just for a laugh."

 

Irusan, your suggestion of a Companion Need button isn't the first time it's shown up in this discussion; this said, practical realities remain: it will merely become the new Greed button as its priority lies over the actual Greed button, and it loses its whole purpose then. I don't think the solution to this issue (if one can ever be found) is to further complicate the process, I think it's to simplify it since so many people of differing mindsets have valid reasons for why they'd want to roll Need on something. Roll/Pass seems the most efficient to me.

 

As for your claim about folks just debating to hear themselves debate, perhaps that's the case with some. Sometimes others just feel passionately about something and want to continue the discussion. I don't know if it has anything to do with anyone's "glory days", at Princeton or elsewhere. I mean, I certainly didn't go to Princeton; snobby east-coast colleges aren't my style.

[sjmc]

it's unwritten rule that if you are going to sell/vendor/give to an alt, it is considered greed.

 

welcome to MMOs

I think that, as much as there unwritten rules, under a NBG system, there is a consensus behind the above statement.

 

Does anyone on this thread disagree that sell/vendor/give to an alt is generally considered to be a "greed" roll?

 

EDIT: I am not saying that everyone agrees that it should be true, but that they understand that most other people would consider those things to be greed rolls.

Edited February 2, 2012 by sjmc

[seekerofpower]

Seriously, this issue comes down to one thing: don't be an ***-hat. If the item is designed for someone else in the party, don't roll need on it. Then, when something for you comes up, they will give you the same respect.

How is it people don't get this.

If you roll need on something that isn't made for your character, it is an upgrade for the person it is designed for and I am the group leader, I will kick you. No questions asked.

[Setanian]

Seriously, this issue comes down to one thing: don't be an ***-hat. If the item is designed for someone else in the party, don't roll need on it. Then, when something for you comes up, they will give you the same respect.

How is it people don't get this.

If you roll need on something that isn't made for your character, it is an upgrade for the person it is designed for and I am the group leader, I will kick you. No questions asked.

 

So you're another one that dictate your rules to everyone else?

[sjmc]

Seriously, this issue comes down to one thing: don't be an ***-hat. If the item is designed for someone else in the party, don't roll need on it. Then, when something for you comes up, they will give you the same respect.

How is it people don't get this.

Except that something for me (that would upgrade my character in some way) did just come up and you are saying I shouldn't roll on it because someone else might also want it.

 

EDIT: If by "designed for someone else in the party" means it has their name on it (similar to "Corso Rigg's Belt") or it has a class-requirement, then I wouldn't roll on it. People should not roll need on its that have a class- (or individual-)requirement of a different class from their own.

Edited February 2, 2012 by sjmc

[Striker_KOJ]

I think that, as much as there unwritten rules, under a NBG system, there is a consensus behind the above statement.

 

Does anyone on this thread disagree that sell/vendor/give to an alt is generally considered to be a "greed" roll?

 

Generally considered, sure. But I will go as far as to say that if someone needs the cash to get an upgrade that is otherwise unattainable, and they "need" an item so they can sell it on the auction house, then who am I to say they really didn't need it? Farfetched scenario, sure, but it could happen, and the person could legitamately NEED the money.

 

Having a few level 50 characters, and a general understanding of the game's itemization and the cash flow at particular levels, I don't think I would personally roll "need" on an item strictly to sell it, but that is MY choice, and I could understand if some nub wanted to sell an Orange item so he could afford his speeder training.

 

"Well the player should just grind mobs for cash and not deprive someone else of the loot that they will use..."

 

You could just as easily grind mobs for cash and buy the item off of him. That way you get the loot you wanted and he gets the money he needs for an upgrade elsewhere.

 

See how easy it is to argue either way? That's why I prefer to allow everyone a fair and equal chance to obtain an item through rolling dice. Why do I need to come down on someone else because they didn't provide sufficient references and support to justify why they "need" an item. I will give them the benefit of the doubt that they made a reasoned choice. Even if they made a bonehead choice, I still have an equal chance at the loot.

[ferroz]

Since as far as I can tell, no Blue item will be an upgrade over an equal level orange item.

 

No, there were times when a blue was better itemized for me than an orange would have been.

 

Gloves and boots get less armor for the same level armoring than head/chest/legs. So I ran into situations where a blue set of gloves gave me better armor/defense than I could get with an orange that was on level; mostly this was in my 30s, where the commendation mods/enhancements lack tank stats, and the quest ones are several levels behind.

 

I had blue a level 31 or 33 pair of gloves that I kept until I was 40ish because I couldn't put together a better orange pair.

 

edit, actually, I think I kept it until I was 43 or 44, but it had an augment slot.

Edited February 2, 2012 by ferroz

[Irusan]

This is just another attempt to inflict your rule on everyone else.

 

Let me ask you a question.. We have proven beyond doubt, that out way is fair. Why will you not accept it?

 

The only thing I have seen proven beyond a doubt is that your way is a giant step backward in logic from my way. As certain as you are that your way is more fair (I really, really doubt you feel this way, as I said), I am twice as certain my way is the more fair.

[VanorDM]

Or it is an upgrade to their orange item that doesn't have mods currently slotted in it that give greater stats than the blue item?

 

We are talking about stuff you can buy at a vendor for commendations after all. Do you really think it's fair to take something away from me, that I will find useful because you don't want to bother buying some gear from a vendor?

[daemian]

The only thing I have seen proven beyond a doubt is that your way is a giant step backward in logic from my way. As certain as you are that your way is more fair (I really, really doubt you feel this way, as I said), I am twice as certain my way is the more fair.

 

The current roll system is as fair as it gets. It's an impartial roll of the dice. Changing the rules to favor one group's way of thinking is less fair.

[VanorDM]

No, there were times when a blue was better itemized for me than an orange would have been.

 

I don't see how, since with orange items you have complete control over the stats on the item.

 

where the commendation mods/enhancements lack tank stats

 

All my mods are Guardian mods, which favor End over Str, and my enhancements have +def.

 

Edit: That said... the idea still stands, that you have people rolling need on an item that might not actually be an upgrade for them, simply because it matches up to their class.

 

If you don't have an orange item in that slot, or can't find mods for it, then clearly that is a different situation then one where you have a orange item with upto date mods.

Edited February 2, 2012 by VanorDM

[Eldren]

Seriously, this issue comes down to one thing: don't be an ***-hat. If the item is designed for someone else in the party, don't roll need on it. Then, when something for you comes up, they will give you the same respect.

How is it people don't get this.

If you roll need on something that isn't made for your character, it is an upgrade for the person it is designed for and I am the group leader, I will kick you. No questions asked.

 

If it works on my companion, it's made for "my character", since my companion is an extension of my character. As a result, I'm going to roll Need on anything that's an upgrade for one of my companions.

[Setanian]

The only thing I have seen proven beyond a doubt is that your way is a giant step backward in logic from my way. As certain as you are that your way is more fair (I really, really doubt you feel this way, as I said), I am twice as certain my way is the more fair.

 

I do feel this way? Are you now going to tell me how I feel as well as tell me how I should loot?

 

Explain to me why my way is not as fair as yours?

[Setanian]

We are talking about stuff you can buy at a vendor for commendations after all. Do you really think it's fair to take something away from me, that I will find useful because you don't want to bother buying some gear from a vendor?

 

no-one is taking anything away from you?

 

Did you win the item? No, then try again. Don't dare say because you lost the roll, the winner took it from you. It is not yours unless you win it.

[Striker_KOJ]

We are talking about stuff you can buy at a vendor for commendations after all. Do you really think it's fair to take something away from me, that I will find useful because you don't want to bother buying some gear from a vendor?

 

Excuse me? Why can't you grind commendations? Why do you deserve this item RIGHT NOW, just because I can complete several quests and eventually have my item on par with yours. You can't buy mods from the vendor? You can only get loot from the flashpoint?

 

The item is only useful to you, even if it is an upgrade to me, RIGHT NOW, just like it would be to you? What if I don't have the commendations to purchase the mods? That's my fault, and you deserve the gear because...?

 

Again, why are you more important than me? Because you say so?

[VanorDM]

If you roll need on something that isn't made for your character, it is an upgrade for the person it is designed for...

 

And if someone rolls need on an item that is designed for their class, but it is not an upgrade?

[racsofp]

I'll say this and be done with this conversation forever. I think we all can agree that the absolute best solution for either party here is to pre-establish loot rules before any runs begin. No one will ever state that the loot rolls weren't fair either way if the rules are completely agreed upon by all 4 participants before you enter. If you don't like the loot rules that are decided (ie the other three agree but you do not), drop group and find another.

 

 

/thread

Agree 95%. People will still state things were unfair for some reason, but they won't have any legit complaint now.

[Calsidian]

What is the point of a thread like this? It's not going to actually have any affect on player behavior in the game. Even if everyone on this forum magically decided on the same honor system for loot rolls, that is still only a very small portion of the total playerbase.

 

Until there is a system in place within the game that restricts who can roll on what, everytime you decide to PUG you run the risk of getting an item ninjad. Don't PUG if you don't want this to happen.