MMOs - Where they all went RIGHT

[hardicon]

Well when you get a job maybe you will appreciate the casual games more .

What kind of sane person would want to spend 8 hours looking at a computer screen.

Unless they are getting paid for it

 

um i did have a job and i do now, probably work more hours than you in a weeks time plus im oncall 24/7.

 

i never said i wanted to spend 8 hours a day doing that, matter of fact i rarely did but that was raiding to me. that was doing something hard that required time and effort and sacrifice. even if i didnt do that there was still plenty to do in vanilla wow. some of my favorite moments in that game was fighting over the crossroads or tarren mill for hours at a time, then came bgs and arenas and world pvp died for a gear progression esport.

 

i never completed 1/10 of the raid content in vanilla wow but i also never got bored with vanilla wow. I didnt get bored with wow till lich king, when it got boring even though i was able to do all the raids and stuff the game was just more boring, because the challenge was gone. of course im just a little weird but i think a hard challenge is more satisfying than a easy challenge or no challenge at all.

[bentcurve]

Well when you get a job maybe you will appreciate the casual games more .

What kind of sane person would want to spend 8 hours looking at a computer screen.

Unless they are getting paid for it

 

I have a job, a career actually, and a wife, who plays with me, and a three year old daughter, and I would love to do that. What kind of a person wants to go walk outside unless they are getting paid to? Or work out? They are called hobbies, things you spend your free time doing because you enjoy it. If playing eight hours straight sounds like torture to you, maybe this is not the hobby for you?

 

This is what I mean. This new batch of MMO player seems to want to invest no time, energy, or effort in the game. They WANT a single player game to play with other people. They really just want a multiplayer Skirum. MMO's should take time. They should take years. You should not play one unless you are planning on investing that time in the game. If you do not have the time to invest, that is okay, there are plenty of other genre's out there that suit your needs. I am not sure why you feel the need to come in, demand mine change, simply so you can be happy only playing an hour at a time.

[ExarchCathedra]

oh yeah wailing caverns 3 to 4 hour dungeon for level 16.

 

maraudon could be a 6 hour dungeon if you did all parts.

 

blackrock spire would generally take 8 hours just to get the group and complete it.

 

 

Yes, but you didn't have to run all of Maraudon, or Blackrock Mountain, or Sunken Temple in one go; you could get keys, and unlock shortcuts, for return trips. They felt like actual environments with which you could engage, not conveyor belts.

[BoneEater]

Well said OP. I agree 100%.

[Mekrath]

it's unfortunate that most mmo players will never realize how sterile and linear world of warcraft is.

 

Every gamer here knows. WoW is vibrant and sandboxy compared to TOR.

[hardicon]

yeah true, you could do different parts to break it up, except for wailing caverns. even today or the last time i played anyway wailing caverns was long for a low level party, but it was a dungeon that was more fun imo than any of the lich king raids.

[Bowlan]

Every gamer here knows. WoW is vibrant and sandboxy compared to TOR.

 

You don't know what a sandbox MMO is, if you say WoW is sandboxy.

[Mekrath]

You don't know what a sandbox MMO is, if you say WoW is sandboxy.

 

COMPARED to TOR.

[Kalfear]

Which WoW was this, and how many world firsts do you hold in it.

 

There is only 1 WOW

 

LOL, you have no clue how silly you all sound to EXPERIENCED PLAYERS with the "well in Vanilla, with chocolate sprinkles and a little strawberry sauce and whipped cream on the side WOW.

 

WOW is easy mode

 

WOW always has been easy mode

WOW always will be easy mode

 

If you EVER felt challenged by WOW, you need to set the bar higher and actually try to acheive things not already at knee high level.

 

You keep going on about how something took a week to clear, to that I say....

 

NOT A WEEK! *GASPS* A WHOLE 7 DAYS!!!! SAY IT AINT SO!!!!

 

One of the earliest beta reveiws of WOW told the story!

 

it said "WOW is nothing but a MMORPG on training wheel and sets the bar so low that ..."

 

Im sure you got the meaning already, I dont need to expand on that QUOTE!

 

But this wasnt about WOW originally for me, it was about your lack of comprehenssion in what people were saying.

 

You falsely claimed no one was elaborating on their meaning (even though THEY ALL WERE) so they came and elaborated for you and all you san say back is

 

" in Napolean flavored, with nuts and and a red whine reduction, WOW ..."

 

Stop bringing up WOW and actually learn about these games you so quickly write off

 

The problem in this thread is you have no clue what others are talking about but have deluded yourself into thinking less information and less experience is the more intellegent way.

 

Yeah, you played WOW, congrats.

That doesnt make you a MMORPG expert or even a MMORPG vetran.

That makes you a WOW Vet.

Expand your universe and veiw point already!

[edgalor]

Haha! Good post. I also laugh at those "WoW ruined MMO's" speeches when WoW actually saved the genre. No wait, WoW brought the genre to life is more like it. Sure, its taken it a little too far NOW ... but I dont think there were even 1 million MMO players before WoW. There definitely werent any MMO's that even broke that much back then.

 

Oh and the "this is too easy" crap when they really mean "fast" is just hilarious, every single time.

 

"What? I got my epic weapon? But this is only my third run on this instance! This is way too easy."

 

"What? The boss died in under 3 days of basic tank n spank? What an easy piece of ****"

 

"I got to end game by doing quest, instances, PvP, and actually interacting with the world? *yawn* This is so easy and boring, I want to fight the same mob respawns for months on end again please."

 

... its funny, but so so sad that its true.

 

Next time you want to hate on WoW, just remember you'd probably still be playing nothing but online shooters and console RPG's if it wasnt for WoW. The rest of you would still be level 6 out of 100 in Everquest 3, which you've been playing for a year and a half, fighting rats in a group because you cant even solo them, outside the starter zone

 

 

Lol thats why i love kids nowaday

 

Mmo existed before wow.... Lineage had like two millions of players world wide. Ragnarok online anyone? They had two or three mil of active sub in its prime. I dont have to mention eq right?

 

The fact is that the mmo genre wasnt nearly as bad as you claimed

[bentcurve]

Lol thats why i love kids nowaday

 

Mmo existed before wow.... Lineage had like two millions of players world wide. Ragnarok online anyone? They had two or three mil of active sub in its prime. I dont have to mention eq right?

 

The fact is that the mmo genre wasnt nearly as bad as you claimed

 

Yeah, this is the truth. Runscape, UO, EQ, Linage, SWG (slightly), and several other MMO's were sporting huge pops. At one point EQ had almost a mill subs just in America. Linage was huge in Asia, and just just down in US this last summer (still running, and profitable, in Asia). You underestimate how popular they were.

[AHChrist]

I remember having 200 people fight 200 people. It was a little laggy at times and sometimes you got disconnected but it was fun as hell.

 

Nowdays, I log into an area and there are 30 people on a planet.

 

They took the massive out of MMO. It is just MO now days.

Edited February 2, 2012 by AHChrist

[ImperiousLeader]

Thank you, thank you, thank you! Great summary - good enough for me to copy and paste to my personal files!

 

I am an old-time MMO player, a person with family, a job, and a career in gaming.

And though the old games were great, the main reason for this was that they were new (at the time)...

 

Additionally I believe one factor for the success of MMO's has been genuinely overlooked in most posts of this thread, and that is the social aspect. The heroes journey in MMO's is generally also a transition from game mechanic to social mechanic.

 

Once the hype wears off and the dust settles, that's when we will see if this game stands the test of time. And it all actually hinges on the community and the love it is willing to provide. In so far it is way to early to actually tell. I could predict things to come, but don't feel like it at all. I'd rather go now and play with my mates!

Edited February 2, 2012 by ImperiousLeader

[Nicain]

All I read was "WoW did it better" in your post.

 

If WoW is so awesome, why are you here?

[Lyynk]

Well, I've never been the type to complain about current MMOs being too easy, really. And I do agree with some of the things you posted.

 

But, with that said, I miss some things from the older MMOs, the biggest one being the time investment to get to max level. I can see the need to tune down the leveling curve a bit for people that do not play as much as I do (Yes I have a job and no I don't live in my mom's basement), but getting to max level in 4 days played time in a week and a half kinda disappointed me (was on vacation). One thing I loved about Aion (there weren't many of them) was that it managed to lower leveling time to max level but not drastically... was a nice balance.

 

Anyways, that's one of my bigger gripes of this game and most new MMOs, but I like the direction this game is heading and I love Star Wars, so I'm not going anywhere.

 

Good post OP.

[Kel-vin]

levels aren't. Quests that say kill 40 mobs are. Gigantic maps full of pointless mobs are. Repetitive quests are.

 

And SWTOR has those in spades.

 

Also i don't think the OP was trying to say that SWTOR was some revolutionary step forward for MMOs. Hes just dissing stupid MMO elitists.

 

 

mmoRPG. role-playing game. Ya know it's always had levels for as long as ... since it's been invented, mister.

 

Just noticed something in this post.

 

I think leveling is put into MMO's because it creates a since of pride in your character. You started from the beginning and finished at the end rather than starting at the end an finishing at the beginning....Does that make sense or am I just talking words?

 

Anyways...I think it could be entirely possible to start at the end-game in MMO's, but you'd have to incorporate some kind of idea like EVE where you level up abilities that make you stronger and focus on certain skills that can make you more versatile. I'm not sure if, from a balancing standpoint, that'd be easier.

[bentcurve]

Starting at endgame is like playing a game with cheat codes: it sounds fun and awesome in your head, but it really just ruins the game and leaves you devoid of any accomplishment.

[Vordy]

Lvls shouldnt be part of any mmo's, instead mmo's should focus on what Ultima Online did, that was a damn good game.

[Kel-vin]

Yeah, this is the truth. Runscape, UO, EQ, Linage, SWG (slightly), and several other MMO's were sporting huge pops. At one point EQ had almost a mill subs just in America. Linage was huge in Asia, and just just down in US this last summer (still running, and profitable, in Asia). You underestimate how popular they were.

 

EA Is running ads on TOR. You can look at this from any kind of stand point, but companies don't run ads if it's not profitable to them in the long run otherwise it's a waste of money. The gaming business as far as EA is concerned is well. Their stocks rose a bit today.

 

Also SWTOR hit 3 millionth mark for box sales not long ago. That's a big number. If even half of them sub that's still a net profit over time. The game isn't doing bad at all. It's just the whiners on this forum that give TOR a bad name to those who read it.

[alifaraaz]

All I read was "WoW did it better" in your post.

 

If WoW is so awesome, why are you here?

 

Read the post again - you clearly misunderstood it. The OP is simply stating how WoW took MMORPGs into a new direction where you are awarded based on your skill and not your time spent within the game.

 

Which assuming you've played SWTOR to a good extend - is very similar in such way. There's no massively exclusive amazing things ingame that only people who play 12 hours a day can achieve.

 

With regards to the actual post - very good I would agree with much of it. This game's far from perfect but it has started out well and I'm sure it will continue to evolve to cater to the people playing it. Infact I'm confident it will based purely on how proactive they've been with certain things - the guild summit in March etc. I feel it's a sign of good things for this game.

[Vordy]

Read the post again - you clearly misunderstood it. The OP is simply stating how WoW took MMORPGs into a new direction where you are awarded based on your skill and not your time spent within the game.

 

Which assuming you've played SWTOR to a good extend - is very similar in such way. There's no massively exclusive amazing things ingame that only people who play 12 hours a day can achieve.

 

With regards to the actual post - very good I would agree with much of it. This game's far from perfect but it has started out well and I'm sure it will continue to evolve to cater to the people playing it. Infact I'm confident it will based purely on how proactive they've been with certain things - the guild summit in March etc. I feel it's a sign of good things for this game.

 

Actually, its the other way around, if you played a lot on WoW you got rewared, not by skill. WoW has no skill involve, very little atleast.

[Kalfear]

I remember having 200 people fight 200 people. It was a little laggy at times and sometimes you got disconnected but it was fun as hell.

 

Nowdays, I log into an area and there are 30 people on a planet.

 

They took the massive out of MMO. It is just MO now days.

 

This is a good point!

 

DAoC had 800k subscribers a couple times in its life (before SWG, 2 month drop at sWG release and then massive reup in DAoC again) but I swear to god there was more players PLAYING DAoC then TOR.

 

Not subscribers, TOR clearly has more subscribers but at any given time during the 800k days of DAoC you could see hundreads in Emain.

 

Ive been on Relic raids were each side had 250 players and we crashed the server multiple times from load.

 

The old games might not have had the 2-3-4 million subs but they did have a more active player base.

 

Never really thought about it but your dead on money.

 

The old games had people playing, rather then these new games were people subscribe.

 

Actually, its the other way around, if you played a lot on WoW you got rewared, not by skill. WoW has no skill involve, very little atleast.

 

Bingo!

 

I honestly feel very sorry for people that think WOW was hard and required skill

 

If thats challenging to them, I cant imagine how harsh life challenges going to be.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Kalfear

[JeremyDale]

So there's a recurring mantra on these forums that classic MMOs were 'hard' and required 'effort' to progress through, and all modern content including SWTOR and anything based around WoW is 'for casuals' who 'want everything for free'. I like to chuckle to myself when i hear these clichés. They're quotes from people who never really elaborate on what they mean by 'hard', but it's not difficult to read between the lines. So this thread is about why we shouldn't be giving credit to old (pre-WoW) MMOs for being 'difficult', and why the genre is progressing in a good direction.

 

What do people mean when they make a claim like "doing X in Asheron's Everquestscape actually took effort, unlike in ModernMMO"? Effort in an MMO breaks down into 3 factors, if something is described as difficult then it is either going to be:

 

a). A huge time sink, requiring an abnormal amount of sheer time investment (eg. Killing wolves in a field for 400 hours).

 

b). Incredibly unlikely through a mechanisim of pure chance (eg. very very rare drops).

 

c). Actually challenging in the sense that a great deal of individual skill, planning, teamwork or gameplay knowledge is required to accomplish the feat.

 

 

Guess which of these things are being referred to when a forumite makes a comment about how difficult classic MMOs were. I'll give you a clue, it's not c).

 

10 years ago Blizzard realised something quite important, that in hindsight should have been obvious - unemployed people who spend 12 hours a day playing games in their parent's basement aren't the only, or even the largest demographic to target a subscription based game at. So they created a game that was designed to reward you based on criteria other than wether or not you have a day job. WoW's greatest triumph is the same design decision that makes it unpopular with basement dwelling welfare toads, your 'success' or character strength in WoW is not directly proportional to the amount of time you spend online playing it.

 

Levelling to max level is fast, because that brings everyone together on a fairly level playing field where they can then be seperated by playing ability. 'Welfare epics' make the entry level of gear required to start raiding, or playing arena quick to aquire, allowing people to progress based on their ability at the game instead of having to fight through a timesink just to get on the gear ladder. When new gear tiers are introduced, the entry level is pulled up so that there is never an insurmountable gear gap between newish characters and people who sank a lot of time into the previous tier.

 

With this system, they manage to provide the best tuned and highest level challenge of *skill* provided by any MMO to date, to the point that guilds at the top level of play become internationally renowned with sponsorship deals. This is a game which goes out of its way to allow as many people as possible to take part in the raiding content, by making it easy to level up and aquire the gear to begin raiding. Despite this it still manages to tune the top end of PvE content so well that only a tiny percentage of the playerbase are actually capable of clearing the top hardmode content of each patch.

 

So evidentally, it's not easy, it's not casual or free, because the millions of subscribers who are all equipped with exactly what they need to complete this content, can't do it. Not because they have jobs, but because the game is actually challenging, instead of just time consuming. Character progression, that lure that is the backbone of all MMOs exists in WoW between the entry level of welfare gear, and the top level of hardmode gear from current content, with associated title and vanity mount. The power difference between the 2 ends is small, as it has to be for the system to work, but the bragging rights are great. This progression is tied to various systems that ensure it favours ability over time invested. Raid locks, weekly rating systems for arena, even boss fights that are time or attempt limited, it's clear that this is part of Blizzards design, and their results are evident.

 

This is the future of MMOs, to retain all the addictive progression carrots that define the genre, but to tier players and tie that progression to genuine challenges of increasing difficulty, rather than time-sink power systems that reward people primarily for being online all day. It's the unemployed who are grumpy, the self professed hardcore who are no longer top of the pile, because the 'effort' they put so much weight in and valued so highly only gets them faction tabards and a lot of achievement points.

 

No, it's not "difficult" to reach max level anymore. But when this difficulty you speak of really just means excessive playtime repeatedly killing things in a field, and the challenges you overcame mainly involved trying to pee into a cup, why are you so proud of yourself? Go clear the current raid content on hard, then you can come back and talk about how MMOs are all easy these days and everyone wants it all on a plate.

 

Your post exagerates to the max.

 

On no game have I ever had to kill wolves in a field for 400 hours....

 

I really fail to see much difference in this "new kind" of MMO and the "old kind" in terms of playtime. They are both "time skinks". The only difference is instead of spending your time leveling up and progressing to new lands you instead spend it all repeating the same old instances and quests over and over on the so called "endgame".

 

I'm glad you are in such love with this new formula. Many are. I'm not. All I can say is have fun repeating the same stuff over and over every day. I rather go flip burgers. At least they pay me doing that over and over.

[sevenex]

Your post exagerates to the max.

 

On no game have I ever had to kill wolves in a field for 400 hours....

 

I really fail to see much difference in this "new kind" of MMO and the "old kind" in terms of playtime. They are both "time skinks". The only difference is instead of spending your time leveling up and progressing to new lands you instead spend it all repeating the same old instances and quests over and over on the so called "endgame".

 

I'm glad you are in such love with this new formula. Many are. I'm not. All I can say is have fun repeating the same stuff over and over every day. I rather go flip burgers. At least they pay me doing that over and over.

 

Yea I agree. It's not that I don't like these types of games. I do. I'm playing and loving this game. I just don't understand why things have to be so damn fast. It happened with WOW and it will happen to me in this game. I will lose interest and I will stop playing.

 

I don't think things should go back to the way they were in EQ1. That was a bit much and if you started late, some things would be impossible for you. To me, the best formula was WOW TBC. That is to say that in my opinion that had the best mix of casual and hardcore. Leveling was easy, perhaps a bit too easy but whatever. You could solo to max level in a fair amount of time. Not the light speed to 50 model this game uses, but not too much heavier. Then when you started endgame it was a lot of fun and there was pretty much always something else to work to next.

 

Only the super hardcore had everything cleared by the time new raids were released. You had to get keyed to move on to the next tier, which really made it feel good to accomplish that. The sheer awesomeness of Kara was a blast and you could have a lot of fun in there for a week at first, then for a night.

 

I don't want to go back to the way things were in EQ1, although I had a ton of fun playing that game. I do, however, think that some suits that work for these companies, who really don't game themselves, sat around and thought something along these lines:

 

If WOW made things easier, and then made a lot of money, if we make things even easier than that, then we will make even more money!

 

That's just not the case! Eventually too fast and too easy is going to cause people to lose interest and quit. I know it's happening to me right now with this game and it's a shame because I want to love this game and keep playing.

[CygnisJunior]

Logged in just to give this a 5/5