Anni Marauders getting a buff...on test now proof inside.

[IcyFisty]

Yup buff the tree that is already doing well. Good thinking bioware.

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

I used to stubbornly stick to carnage as "My Tree" but after this coming patch I think I know I'm going to be an annihilation mara until they fix carnage. (I don't give a crap about rage I don't want all my damage to revolve around force choke, crush and smash)

[IcyFisty]

I also find it very interesting that people are doing math and considering it dogma when they don't have concrete proof that that's how the numbers actually work in-game. Without logs much of this is estimation. It may be in the ballpark, but what you are calculating and what is actually happening cannot be reconciled without logs.

[Pappus]

I also find it very interesting that people are doing math and considering it dogma when they don't have concrete proof that that's how the numbers actually work in-game. Without logs much of this is estimation. It may be in the ballpark, but what you are calculating and what is actually happening cannot be reconciled without logs.

 

You can do it without logs.

 

If you wanted you could go strip yourself of expertise and your opponent and hit him 1000 times and check your min/max crit and check with your tooltip. People just don't want to bother.

 

A log is just for the lazy, like me

[cosmasterkiller]

You don't chain multiply, because it just leads to wrong results.

 

"Chain multiply" is called multiplicative. It is basic theorycrafting.

[grandmthethird]

seems like this is more of a fix

 

rather than a change due to QQing

[andretious]

Anni spec mara here.

 

Just got out of a warzone with 550k damage and 110k healing, more than twice the damage of the next person in the WZ and 2nd in healing. That was a solo Q game with no pocket healing, against a team with 2 battlemasters and a bunch of champ geared players.

 

I also got 28 killing blows and most objective scores.

 

This is not an uncommon result.

 

This is going to make mara's incredibly OP. I want balance for my class, not the ability to faceroll everything.

 

I really can't in good faith support any buff to mara's, they absolutely wreck every other class in upper level warzones.

 

Mara's need some modifications to their trees that make them more useful in lower to mid levels, and the carnage tree needed major buffs. The last thing the class needed was a buff to bleed damage for anni builds, they already give mara's ridiculous sustain and heal their entire team for absurd amounts for a DPS class.

 

This person is trolling. I'm a battlemaster and i hardly ever break 300k. On a good match i barely make it over. One time i hit 400k but that's it. As for healing 30-50k on a good match. Troll on...

Edited February 2, 2012 by andretious

[enteri]

how surprising to see the subject derailed by forum celebrity wannabes posting their scores and screenshots (NOT)

 

back on the subject, if anyone places the numbers on excel you'll see this is roughly a 7-8% nerf in bleed dmg overall. Patch note saying "dps will increase" is a blatant lie.

 

OMG! Great point! I should really listen to you and the Book1 worksheet you just made not tons of metrics that BW devs have. You've opened my eyes!

 

Guys stop whining. Your calculations are at least funny as there is no easy way to obtain that info on our side due to DR and LOTS of conditions that should be considered. But guess what, I know of bunch of ppl who know this and they said thay it will increase overall dps.

 

Good for you that you don't take those data blindly but on the other hand stop showing arrogance by putting few linear equasions and acting as know-it-all.

[EasymodeX]

Ok, so I only checked the first two and last two pages of this thread.

 

Seems like most of you are terrible at math.

 

See my two posts on this Sentinel thread discussing the same topic.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=262988&page=2

 

The first post shows a comparison between live and patch using an additive crit damage calculation (as if the new crit damage talent functions "LIKE SURGE"). In all cases (0 Berserk, 50% Berserk uptime, 100% Berserk uptime), it's a nerf. Especially for PvP specs that don't pick up Hemorrhage.

 

The second post shows a similar comparison using a multiplicative crit damage formula for the new crit damage talent (similar to certain specific crit damage talents and effects in WoW). This comparison is actually ok -- with a decent Berserk uptime you will see a break even or slight net gain. It still impacts PvP specs with no Hemorrhage though, which will have a significant loss unless they crit.

 

So, hopefully BioWare is implementing the latter. Will require testing ... is anyone on the test server? Lulz.

[Zenz]

This person is trolling. I'm a battlemaster and i hardly ever break 300k. On a good match i barely make it over. One time i hit 400k but that's it. As for healing 30-50k on a good match. Troll on...

 

Think again. This is at rank 46, champ geared (except for relics). Time to head to l2p land.

 

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/6864/swtor202012013120214706.jpg

 

As already mentioned, watch the smtp stream, where annihil magic happens. I also agree carnage needs a buff. Annihilation is fine as is (for pvp).

[Precurso]

OMG! Great point! I should really listen to you and the Book1 worksheet you just made not tons of metrics that BW devs have. You've opened my eyes!

 

Guys stop whining. Your calculations are at least funny as there is no easy way to obtain that info on our side due to DR and LOTS of conditions that should be considered. But guess what, I know of bunch of ppl who know this and they said thay it will increase overall dps.

 

Good for you that you don't take those data blindly but on the other hand stop showing arrogance by putting few linear equasions and acting as know-it-all.

 

You DONT have to listen to me dumbarse, you CAN however use excel if you have basic maths (you do know excel, right?)

 

Where are the "tons of metrics that BW devs have" as you mention? I don't have them, I have my excel sheet and basic formulas anyone with half a brain can do in 5 mins. How am I acting as know-it-all? What arrogance? Stop being a lazy arse and open up excel, put a number, multiply by surge rating (before and after). Are you really this stupid???

[TheRealBrave]

This person is trolling. I'm a battlemaster and i hardly ever break 300k. On a good match i barely make it over. One time i hit 400k but that's it. As for healing 30-50k on a good match. Troll on...

 

30-50k healing on a good match? You should hit the 75k+ mark almost every game. You need better Zen uptime.

[Pappus]

"Chain multiply" is called multiplicative. It is basic theorycrafting.

 

Yes but it is wrong to do it, which I even showed to you in a matter my cat would understand and I used simple terms, because chain multiply is easier to understand for most people.

 

Unless someone very bad is doing the formulas on their end it is done in a matter like this:

 

Basedmg*(1+bonus1,bonus2,...,critbonus)

 

 

So for those people unable to do it correctly:

 

We assume 50% crit chance in total and 80% base surge, furthermore the hit we take as base is 1000.

 

Currently: 1000*(1+0,3(bleedout)+0,06(hemorrhage))=1360

Current Crit: 1000*(1+0,3+0,06+0,8(crit))=2160

 

Upcoming: 1000*(1+0,15)=1150

Upcoming Crit: 1000*(1+0,15+0,8(crit)+0,3(bleedout))=2250

 

With that being said we can calculate, that we would need 70% crit chance to break even with the old system. So obviously some kind of berserk is involved.

 

I will go ahead and just assume 30% uptime on berserk for 100 hits and go with the totals:

 

Currently we would get: 30 autocrits due to berserk: 64800 dmg + 35 crits due to critrate: 75600 + 35 non crits: 47600

Currently Total: 188000

 

Upcoming: 146250 (all crits) + 35 non crits 40250 = 186500

 

No we know, that our uptime of berserk needs to be higher then 30% of the fight. With 30% we have a damage difference of less then 1% so we can just go ahead and call 30% berserk time the break even point.

 

If we had 50% berserk uptime ( just doing it to show Easy that his math is bad as most of the others)

 

Currently:

50 autocrits + 25 crits due to critrate: 162000 then we add 25x normal hits 34000

Total: 196000

 

Upcoming:

75 crits again: 168750 and then 25 Normal hits 28750

total: 197500

 

So with 50% berserk uptime we would already have it.

 

Just a question of critrate in the end, but it becomes quite important as a stat for annihilation specs. I do like for pvp reasons, that our burst is increased a bit though.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Pappus

[cosmasterkiller]

Yes but it is wrong to do it, which I even showed to you in a matter my cat would understand.

 

Unless someone very bad is doing the formulas on their end it is done in a matter like this:

 

Basedmg*(1+bonus1,bonus2,...,critbonus)

 

Do some ingame testing and post your results. You'll see what I mean.

[Stigas]

Ok, so I only checked the first two and last two pages of this thread.

 

Seems like most of you are terrible at math.

 

See my two posts on this Sentinel thread discussing the same topic.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=262988&page=2

 

The first post shows a comparison between live and patch using an additive crit damage calculation (as if the new crit damage talent functions "LIKE SURGE"). In all cases (0 Berserk, 50% Berserk uptime, 100% Berserk uptime), it's a nerf. Especially for PvP specs that don't pick up Hemorrhage.

 

The second post shows a similar comparison using a multiplicative crit damage formula for the new crit damage talent (similar to certain specific crit damage talents and effects in WoW). This comparison is actually ok -- with a decent Berserk uptime you will see a break even or slight net gain. It still impacts PvP specs with no Hemorrhage though, which will have a significant loss unless they crit.

 

So, hopefully BioWare is implementing the latter. Will require testing ... is anyone on the test server? Lulz.

 

 

Would make sense for a deep talent to be required. I think they're doing the same thing to hybrid Assassins between Madness and Deception.

 

My guess is they're going to actively try to force people into 31pt builds. I won't share my opinion on it, but that's how I'm seeing the changes.

[Ultratron]

Anni spec mara here.

 

Just got out of a warzone with 550k damage and 110k healing, more than twice the damage of the next person in the WZ and 2nd in healing. That was a solo Q game with no pocket healing, against a team with 2 battlemasters and a bunch of champ geared players.

 

I also got 28 killing blows and most objective scores.

 

This is not an uncommon result.

 

This is going to make mara's incredibly OP. I want balance for my class, not the ability to faceroll everything.

 

I really can't in good faith support any buff to mara's, they absolutely wreck every other class in upper level warzones.

 

Mara's need some modifications to their trees that make them more useful in lower to mid levels, and the carnage tree needed major buffs. The last thing the class needed was a buff to bleed damage for anni builds, they already give mara's ridiculous sustain and heal their entire team for absurd amounts for a DPS class.

 

LOL at this random guy, ignorance is bliss...

[Hoseman]

btw. Sithwarrior.com is full of misinformation and terrible theorycrafters.

 

Thats my opinion.

[Pappus]

Do some ingame testing and post your results. You'll see what I mean.

 

I would, if I could. Unfortunately the numbers that I see don't match up with what is happening.

 

My numbers are borked or strangely overlapping. I guess I need to reinstall, but I can't be bothered at this time.

 

Also it doesn't matter much, if it was added multiplicative in the end, then this was quite a big bug, which needed correction.

[Blaaat]

My thoughts exactly.

 

I used to stubbornly stick to carnage as "My Tree" but after this coming patch I think I know I'm going to be an annihilation mara until they fix carnage. (I don't give a crap about rage I don't want all my damage to revolve around force choke, crush and smash)

Yup today I joined the dotting side and specced to Watchman (Annihilation) it seems that dotting your opponents to dead is Sentinal/Marauder's destiny.

[Keldaur]

Honestly, unless someone has access to the information in the data files it's going to be hard to figure out before it's released. There's really too much speculation floating around about what is and is not happening with the "old" and "new" systems. If someone has access to the new and old data on how these values are calculated that would eliminate uncertainty as to how the "old" and "new" system are performing calculations.

 

Until that is released it's basically a bunch of people posting what they *think* is going on, and making assumptions about what numbers are bugged and what numbers aren't, and how those numbers are calculated, with no supporting empirical data to substantiate their theory or disprove the theories presented by others.

 

That's why I think a discussion of whether or not the marauder should even be buffed in the first place would be a much more fruitful exercise, as per the original posts in the thread.

 

I use to do that kind of damage as a sentinel, but it is against bad teams who do not know how to counter us, instead they ignore us or focus us. First is the correct answer if you CC us. Knockback, aoe blind from shields, stuns, roots and taunts ussually can make our life way harder, and our damage get seriously compromised that way. Normally, good sorcs/sages and vanguards/powertech specced right will outdps and outheal/protect you, not to mention our aoe heal is quite useless and it's only purpose aside extra healing for ourselves, is to inflate our heal score.

 

We are fine, we are a strong class, but that doesn't make us overpowered, learn the difference.

 

By the way, one question to you marauders, what damage says your rupture's tooltip ?

 

I am half battlemaster gear / half champion gear, using power + surge on everypiece i can, and i am interested to know, because i read somewhere below some guy said 1300 damage on their DoT damage.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Keldaur

[Hoseman]

I use to do that kind of damage as a sentinel, but it is against bad teams who do not know how to counter us, instead they ignore us or focus us. First is the correct answer if you CC us. Knockback, aoe blind from shields, stuns, roots and taunts ussually can make our life way harder, and our damage get seriously compromised that way. Normally, good sorcs/sages and vanguards/powertech specced right will outdps and outheal/protect you, not to mention our aoe heal is quite useless and it's only purpose aside extra healing for ourselves, is to inflate our heal score.

 

We are fine, we are a strong class, but that doesn't make us overpowered, learn the difference.

 

By the way, one question to you marauders, what damage says your rupture's tooltip ?

 

I am half battlemaster gear / half champion gear, using power + surge on everypiece i can, and i am interested to know, because i read somewhere below some guy said 1300 damage on their DoT damage.

 

 

At first i thought this was going to be an arrow to the knee joke

 

 

Ive been seeing crits like 1200 from bleeds as well and it seems to be coming from overcharge saber/deadly saber procs, but only every so often. I cant pinpoint where the damage is coming from as the tooltips nor the other talents seem to see this high number make sense

[Keldaur]

At first i thought this was going to be an arrow to the knee joke

 

 

Ive been seeing crits like 1200 from bleeds as well and it seems to be coming from overcharge saber/deadly saber procs, but only every so often. I cant pinpoint where the damage is coming from as the tooltips nor the other talents seem to see this high number make sense

 

 

I am talking about selfbuffed tooltip on rupture, not the damage you can accomplish (that 1200 crit is from overload/deadly saber). And as a sentinel, they totally had made sense to me all the time with simple maths.

 

Edit - For example, my overload saber gets up to 6xx damage when fully juyo stacked, i got 80% surge, and my crits are around that 13xx range as it should. Always, not weird stuff happening.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Keldaur

[Hoseman]

If thats the case ive never seen my dots from rupture crit higher than around 600

[Keldaur]

If thats the case ive never seen my dots from rupture crit higher than around 600

 

And what's the damage on your toolip ? please, i am interested to know ;p

Edited February 2, 2012 by Keldaur

[Hoseman]

And what's the damage on your toolip ? please, i am interested to know ;p

 

I dont know im at work!!!

 

Look up Natsu on ironcitadel some time tonight ill try and check it out, but probably forget to post it here.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Hoseman

[Keldaur]

I dont know im at work!!!

 

Look up Natsu on ironcitadel some time tonight ill try and check it out, but probably forget to post it here.

 

 

Hahha. I ask because on beta, my marauder had 33% more damage on the DoT part than my sentinel when i created him on live servers. Ofc i thought "well, they nerfed it, it's ok". Now i read somebody saying their tooltip is around 1300 (something, no sentinel can), and i want to know if the guy was just bluffing or you marauders can confirm it.