Most of you just dont get it...

[Sookster]

The success of MMO games isnt enough, the billions blizzard has made? I mean get real, seriously.......

 

No you are wrong, the gear is the gear, it comes with the territory of an MMO. There are tons of other genre's for pvp without gear progression involved........

 

Before The Burning Crusade there weren't gear that separated one from another, but after TBC with the introduction of resilience, it got stupid and high level pvp started to die off and 20-29,30-39 and 40-49 brackets picked up. Guess what's happening in SWTOR... 10-49 picked up while 50-50 is slowly dying.

[FIGHTorFIGHT]

Yes battlemaster vs battlemaster is where the competitive pvp is at. The problem is that probably less than 1% of total players will ever get a full set.

 

Competitive pvp is about giving as many people as possible access so the people with the most skill rise to the top.

[Advocatis]

You still dont get it, the MAJORITY of MMO players play the game to progress through gear and become stronger than other people playing the game, they do not want to play a game where everyone is footman #13 on the battlefield.....

 

They want their toon to be the HERO, the guy with 200 more str than the others, william wallace, achilles, "insert hero here".........everyone else playing is suppose to be random worthless enemy....and ever so often you run into "hector", "insert awesome geared enemy here"......

 

this is an MMO.....get over it

 

I hear what you're saying, but the rub is if you're the biggest baddest hero, where do you find people willing to be your footman #13? The only way for everyone to be a hero is equality of gear.

[Skeptical]

Wrong. There'd less than 20k threads in this section alone. That alone tells me forum posters are a minority.. especially when you are talking beta

 

Try again

 

Way to completely miss the fact that you have no idea how many people have played or are playing this game. Forum threads are irrevelant because you have nothing to compare them to.

 

You're assuming that everyone not accounted for in the forums ALL feel the same way and can be accounted for. They can't.

 

You can't know how the rest of the people who don't post on the forums feels about the game. So any statistics that you try to apply to those people is complete speculation and therefore a load of horse dookie.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Wekeltes

[Vegathegreat]

Before The Burning Crusade there weren't gear that separated one from another, but after TBC with the introduction of resilience, it got stupid and high level pvp started to die off and 20-29,30-39 and 40-49 brackets picked up. Guess what's happening in SWTOR... 10-49 picked up while 50-50 is slowly dying.

 

LOLOLOL before BC it was all gear....it was PVE tier gear DOMINATING pvp, i would run around with sulfurus, might on men, we can go allday about this

[Scoobings]

they refer to player skill and practice i assume....which goes hand in hand with grinding it out and learning everything the game has to offer...

 

So what is "Skill based" progression then? I guess I just misunderstood. What was the progression in DAOC? I keep getting told that there was progression but I guess maybe I'm misunderstanding.

[MarcoMontana]

I have yet to see any statistics that back up your claim.

 

I had a HUGE thread in the Beta PVP forums with a poll about how effective people wanted gear to be in PVP. It was overwhelmingly in favor of gear having as little impact on PVP as possible.

 

PVEers want gear progression.

 

Real PVPers don't need it, at least not to the level of gearflation stupidity that it gets taken in some games that think they are making good PVP.

 

 

 

Exactly!!!!!

 

 

PVE players want gear progression.... PVPers only want gear to meet the balance of their enemies! PVPers would rather enter Naked like 2 gladiators and fight using each others skills... The loser would have no excuses whereas both were identical.

[Scoobings]

Before The Burning Crusade there weren't gear that separated one from another, but after TBC with the introduction of resilience, it got stupid and high level pvp started to die off and 20-29,30-39 and 40-49 brackets picked up. Guess what's happening in SWTOR... 10-49 picked up while 50-50 is slowly dying.

 

Did you play the same game as me? WoW PVP exploded with Burning Crusade and has become the most popular form of MMO E-sport that E-sports have ever seen.

 

That's not to say that it was perfect, or even good. I felt it was pretty unbalanced, but not because of resilience. I actually thought at the time that resilience brought a lot of balance to the game by helping to curtail huge burst.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Scoobings

[AJMTL]

I don't give two ***** about gear... just give me a valid reason to log on.

[Sookster]

Did you play the same game as me? WoW PVP exploded with Burning Crusade and has become the most popular form of MMO E-sport that E-sports have ever seen.

 

That's not to say that it was perfect, or even good. I felt it was pretty unbalanced, but not because of resilience. I actually thought at the time that resilience brought a lot of balance to the game by helping to curtail huge burst.

 

You mean the 10-19 twinks?

[Elyssandra]

...

Why? Because people want to play their character, with their benefits, and they want to see those benefits apply in PVP. /thread right there.

 

All the games who have tried to have gear be a non-factor either failed, or caved to the overwhelming majority demanding something to work for in PVP.

 

... The game you want is called a MOBA, and I think you'd enjoy that a lot more.

 

Who is "people" scoobings? You?

I am part of "people" too and my opinion is different from yours - doesn't make me any less part of the group identified as "people".

 

What are "all the games" that failed solely because they lacked gear advantage in PVP?

Let me point you to a successful old game called GW where gear did not matter and where competitive PVP was highly developed.

Yes everyone wants something to work for or achieve - but doesn't have to be gear - it can be:

• titles,
  
• rankings,
  
• ratings,
  
• a gold star,
  
• a statue,
  
• a cape trim
  
• whatever else rocks people's boats...
  

but these achievements don't have to give someone an advantage when competitively PVPing.

 

It can provide recognition, a sense of achievement, etc but still keep PVP a game of pitting my skill against your skill and nothing more.

 

Please don't tell me what I'll enjoy more or what I should be doing - you don't know me and hopefully we can express opinions on a forum without getting personal...

[Scoobings]

LOLOLOL before BC it was all gear....it was PVE tier gear DOMINATING pvp, i would run around with sulfurus, might on men, we can go allday about this

 

QFT. I remember running around 2 shotting silly mages and priests in my T2 rogue. Do you know why people are so quick to forget about PVP before BC? Because it was terrible, and unmemorable.

[Turando]

All MMOs have an interesting challenge to solve. Generally....

 

- For those that enjoy the PvP experience, MMOs want those customers to engage in enjoyable PvP, regardless of their incoming PvP skill

 

- If PvP system was entirely about skill, only highly skilled players would PvP, which would reduce the potential customer base. If an inexperienced tried PvP, they would get stomped, and there are two possible outcomes: (1) they quit because getting constantly stomped is not fun, (2) they endure the early humiliation until they get better.

 

Gearing is a good compromise to get new comers to try PvP and to learn their class and improve their skills before quitting out of frustration of getting constantly stomped. As a player progresses, their persistence is rewarded as much as their skill.

 

This is a good system to maximize participation in enjoyable PvP for as many people possible. The system always needs to be tweaked and adjusted, but I believe it to be a solid compromise.

[Vegathegreat]

I hear what you're saying, but the rub is if you're the biggest baddest hero, where do you find people willing to be your footman #13? The only way for everyone to be a hero is equality of gear.

 

No, the footmen are the people grinding the gear, the ones who lack skill will be easier than the ones who have skill, in the end if the ones with skill catch up and get gear then you test your skill vs theirs.......there are tons of footmen #13's.....and ever so often once one of them gets enough gear, he becomes "well geared enemy with skill" or "or well geared enemy without skill" essentially making it competitive......

 

And everyone is not suppose to be a hero, thats the whole point of MMO's......

 

EVERYONE trys to be the hero, and you practice and practice......there are 4 levels of play here, bad footmen, good footmen, bad heroes and good heroes

 

The competitive gaming is the "good heroes".......these are the people who have developed skill and gear through progression and practice.........

 

Bad heroes are not better than footmen in the grand scheme of things but if it makes them feel better to beat up on undergeared people then w/e, they pay most the subs anyway, but good players dont complain about anything.....they adapt to the surroundings and game mechanics, they grind the gear and compete vs others that also grinded the gear.

[Bamajawn]

I'd prefer balanced PVP with little gear emphasis. I agree that it's PVErs who want gear. Some folks seem to like collecting it, but it's not the focus of my playstyle. There should be plenty of gear options in PVE to suit those who lust after gear, but I believe that gear in PVP shouldn't provide a huge advantage.

[Red_Cruiser]

Did you play the same game as me? WoW PVP exploded with Burning Crusade and has become the most popular form of MMO E-sport that E-sports have ever seen.

 

That's not to say that it was perfect, or even good. I felt it was pretty unbalanced, but not because of resilience. I actually thought at the time that resilience brought a lot of balance to the game by helping to curtail huge burst.

 

I'm sorry, but anybody support WoW Arena tournaments anymore besides Blizzard? And what OTHER MMORPG became an E-sport? I always thought that the e-sport community response as a whole was more like "Eh, not so impressed."

[Scoobings]

Who is "people" scoobings? You?

I am part of "people" too and my opinion is different from yours - doesn't make me any less part of the group identified as "people".

 

What are "all the games" that failed solely because they lacked gear advantage in PVP?

Let me point you to a successful old game called GW where gear did not matter and where competitive PVP was highly developed.

Yes everyone wants something to work for or achieve - but doesn't have to be gear - it can be:

• titles,
  
• rankings,
  
• ratings,
  
• a gold star,
  
• a statue,
  
• a cape trim
  
• whatever else rocks people's boats...
  

but these achievements don't have to give someone an advantage when competitively PVPing.

 

It can provide recognition, a sense of achievement, etc but still keep PVP a game of pitting my skill against your skill and nothing more.

 

Please don't tell me what I'll enjoy more or what I should be doing - you don't know me and hopefully we can express opinions on a forum without getting personal...

 

"People" in this scenario was the DCUO community at large. I was very active in what was considered the meta-PVP of DCUO and I never ran into anyone who liked legends.

 

GW slipped my mind and I apologize for that. So there is a game that was able to do that successfully, however that progression sounds boring to me (sorry but it does).

 

I'm not inherently against PVP progression outside of gear, but I am against people crying that it's all gear and no skill because that's pretty silly. I have been competing just fine ever since I was a fresh level 50. At a disadvantage sure, but I was doing just fine.

 

Really, I think the problem isn't gear progression so much a matchmaking system that puts a heavy priority on matchings based on Valor rank, and then merging all the servers into one queue. I know a lot of people are against that, but I feel like there would be a larger sense of competition and clear progression outside of gear.

 

Also, I never felt like I was getting personal with my threads I simply used your thread as a springboard.

[inseeisyou]

You want no gear PVP go play Call of Duty

[Nicain]

I have yet to see any statistics that back up your claim.

 

I had a HUGE thread in the Beta PVP forums with a poll about how effective people wanted gear to be in PVP. It was overwhelmingly in favor of gear having as little impact on PVP as possible.

 

PVEers want gear progression.

 

Real PVPers don't need it, at least not to the level of gearflation stupidity that it gets taken in some games that think they are making good PVP.

 

I think skill needs to be important but gear also needs to be important, just because people don't want to farm gear doesn't mean it shouldn't be there.

 

Two fighters with the same skill level, who wins, probably the stronger one. In an MMO gear is how you 'rise above' and become stronger than the guy next to you.

 

If you don't have time to get the gear we understand, but lets not turn this game into an aked duel session because you dont like the idea of gear.

[Skeptical]

"People" in this scenario was the DCUO community at large. I was very active in what was considered the meta-PVP of DCUO and I never ran into anyone who liked legends.

 

GW slipped my mind and I apologize for that. So there is a game that was able to do that successfully, however that progression sounds boring to me (sorry but it does).

 

I'm not inherently against PVP progression outside of gear, but I am against people crying that it's all gear and no skill because that's pretty silly. I have been competing just fine ever since I was a fresh level 50. At a disadvantage sure, but I was doing just fine.

 

Really, I think the problem isn't gear progression so much a matchmaking system that puts a heavy priority on matchings based on Valor rank, and then merging all the servers into one queue. I know a lot of people are against that, but I feel like there would be a larger sense of competition and clear progression outside of gear.

 

Also, I never felt like I was getting personal with my threads I simply used your thread as a springboard.

 

DCUO is irrelevant because the artificial advantage that all of the douchebags flocked to were the macros for animation canceling and animation canceling itself.

 

That game is still plagued by exploits. Granted they aren't as bad as they were at release but the exploits were so bad it chased everyone away from that game's PvP.

 

DCUO had a lot of potential but the slimy Gollums that have to have some kind of artificial advantage abused the exploits so much that it literally killed that game. You can try to blame it on Sony getting hacked but anyone who played that game at release knows the truth.

 

Guess what also added to the death of that game? Everybody and their brothers all rolling villians on PvP servers made for one sided faction imbalances that ruined queue times until the only servers that had decent amounts of people were the PvE servers. Those servers were skewed too but in favor of heroes.

 

I haven't played much since the Megaserver merge but whatever.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Skeptical

[Vegathegreat]

I think skill needs to be important but gear also needs to be important, just because people don't want to farm gear doesn't mean it shouldn't be there.

 

Two fighters with the same skill level, who wins, probably the stronger one. In an MMO gear is how you 'rise above' and become stronger than the guy next to you.

 

If you don't have time to get the gear we understand, but lets not turn this game into an aked duel session because you dont like the idea of gear.

 

Of course skill is important, thats why the gear doesnt matter....just play the game, get the gear and then you can show your skill vs the other people who have the gear. Either you gonna win or lose, most people lose and to keep them from quiting cuz they cant beat the skilled they at least get to beat on the undergeared people......

 

If you do not understand this concept then you have no idea how to keep bad players (90% of mmo players) payin subs for years to come......you gotta give people something to win against or they will quit.... ITS SIMPLE MATH

[Tourne]

I had a HUGE thread in the Beta PVP forums with a poll

 

 

...forums, that's the problem- such a miniscule amount of players actually voice their opinions via this medium. Only the VOCAL minority...which would entail those who enjoy social media/networking, specific Myers-Briggs personality types, those with certain expectations and the ever popular constant complainers.

 

I've played some mmorpg's that I spent at least 3 years without even visiting the forums...it didn't mean that I was happy with everything- it meant that I had other things to do elsewhere.

 

If I took a Poll among a class of art students on how much art impacts everyday life...I'm pretty sure the consensus would be one sided due to my method of delivery.

[Nicain]

You want no gear PVP go play Call of Duty

 

^Perfect...

[Nethershadow]

Wow, the OP and his mentality are just full of FAIL!

 

FPS and RTS are very successful pvp games, and it shows that gear progression is not needed to have people want to play your game. There is nothing that says MMOs ´have´ to have gear progression, not unless you can show us in the official mmo creators book where it says that is a law of mmos.

 

And i want pvp gear progression or lack there of to be like the other styled games mentioned, but i want it in my mmo play. I am clearly not the only one that wants this, and i think you are deluding yourself if you believe we are such a small voice.

 

Just speaking for this game,

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=259238

 

+ the many other large threads here that have been created about how players love the 10-49 bracket and want to roll alts to only play in it.

 

So it is pretty ignorant of you to ignore the obvious right in front of you.

 

Want to stop pve ers from rolling in unchecked, just stat cap them with a -10% regardless of thier gear. I say this because BW wanted to seperate those that spend time in pvp and pve (though i do not think it is necessary, just a straight stat cap would do). Then you will have all the leet pve ers getting face rolled because they suck at pvp and wont show up, or the players that like to enjoy both will then function just fine.

[Scoobings]

I'm sorry, but anybody support WoW Arena tournaments anymore besides Blizzard? And what OTHER MMORPG became an E-sport? I always thought that the e-sport community response as a whole was more like "Eh, not so impressed."

 

I meant was, I don't recall what word I used. I don't think that Arenas ended up well, but that was as a result of implimentation, balance and the lack of a good spectator UI not the resilience stat.