What does the 1-49 bracket teach us about PVP gear?

[Torleen]

Battles? Crusade over a game? Seriously?

 

Insanity is overrated in this thread.

 

Nobody is forcing you to read it. Or to project into it either. If it's such a waste of time why don't you go do something else?

 

Or is there something you are worried about? Like maybe your OP class getting nerfed and your gear being rendered irrelevant you might have to as most elitist PVPers say 'learn to play"?

[SoftSpot]

On the subject of Motivating PvP without gear carrot (and progressive need for more "gear strata" in PvP as sets become more and more ludicrous when compared to "normal" entry-level gear):

 

Shadowbane model is not utilized enough.

 

Remember Shadowbane? The game that was only killed because of crappy technical implementation, yet despite it retained a faithful PvP community that exists even today?

 

Yeah. Well, I like motivation Shadowbane provided to PvP.

 

"I want what's yours. I plan to wreck your sh|t. What are you going to do about it?"

[VoidJustice]

On the subject of Motivating PvP without gear carrot (and progressive need for more "gear strata" in PvP as sets become more and more ludicrous when compared to "normal" entry-level gear):

 

Shadowbane model is not utilized enough.

 

Remember Shadowbane? The game that was only killed because of crappy technical implementation, yet despite it retained a faithful PvP community that exists even today?

 

Yeah. Well, I like motivation Shadowbane provided to PvP.

 

"I want what's yours. I plan to wreck your sh|t. What are you going to do about it?"

 

Also Planetside...

 

 

Can not wait for PS2 although it sounds moar and moar like they are freaking making it dumbed down.

[Red_Cruiser]

Character progression in an MMO? WHAT IS THIS MADNESS?

 

But what if it's not like the last MMO I played?!? What do? *whine*

[RycheMykola]

Your nuts if you think SWG wasn't a grind fest for top end PVPers. Think you can compete with my mind fire weapons killing you before you have any idea what's up? Doubt it. Think you can PVP against me when I have 3 AT-ST's behind me? Your nuts. Think you can PVP against me with me 100% Energy/kinetic armor, my secondary macroed stun armor? lolz, don't think so. Lets not take into account my flawless krayt weapons, my flawless lightsaber pearls? Doubt it. Do you think I would risk my 2400 PVP rating vs your 1200 by using gear that you have? lolz.

 

Sorry to burst your SWG PVP bubble. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but if you think that game valued skill over gear more or less than any other MMO than we didn't play SWG on the same level.

Very true. I had a Legendary Nightsister Lance with a sick Mind Disease on it. Couple that with full doctors buffs and 4x80%/70% composite armor. (pre-NGE)

 

ya, not gear based.

 

/sarcasm.

Edited February 1, 2012 by RycheMykola

[Torleen]

Very true. I had a Legendary Nightsister Lance with a sick Mind Disease on it. Couple that with full doctors buffs and 4x80%/70% composite armor. (pre-NGE)

 

ya, not gear based.

 

/sarcasm.

 

SWG was around for a long time. DOT weapons went away after the CU. And even with the weapons you are talking about they degraded so they would not last forever. So someone getting lucky every now and then with a good slice or whatever did not give them a benefit forever.

 

Also, since everything was crafted everything was attainable.

[DrekorSilverfang]

Having gear matter in pvp is honestly the dumbest thing about MMO pvp.

 

When you can win a fight before a shot is launched just because you outgear somone does not make a good game.

 

The problem is, how do you get people to pvp if gear doesn't matter and they don't have that carrot on a stick?

 

Most serious pvp games have a ladder of some variety or tournaments and such. Something that players can compete and and point to and say "look how awesome I am!"

[Red_Cruiser]

Design the PvP first, then make the PvE numbers work around it. Adding -30% healing trauma inherent to all PvP AND require such a bad stat like Expertise? Square... peg... not quite... fitting in... circular hole.

[DarthSalt]

As soon as I hit 50:

 

I should be able to PvP with the same gear as Battlemasters.

I should be able to PvE with the same gear as hardcore raiders.

 

Why do you have an objection to the first statement and not the second?

[ErisktheRed]

As it is now, it's TOO heavily reliant on gear. Not that there shouldn't be gear in the game at all... but not one set to rule them all type gear... Something to work towards is progression and a staple of MMOs, but imo to give you a SLIGHT advantage or interesting things without being completely necessary to have and without it makes everything imbalanced... and what about the future, alts, new ppl to SWTOR, slower progression ppl getting to 50 and PvP fresh... getting faceplanted by most everyone else in BM gear. That's how heavily the gear makes a difference, really. Just becomes gear > skill, not to say zero skill is still involved I've seen Centurion/fresh 50s do really well with a coord communicative team.

 

NOW 8 BM vs 8 BMs is on a more even level and would be more fun... there needs to be another 50s bracket almost so those valor 60 and thus can wear BM don't fight many freshs with low valor and no expertise or low level expertise gear. Yeah, pop issues with this.

 

It's also not fun for a long grinded BM (wont count the ones who exploited Illum) grouped with mostly fresh 50s and lose not because of skill but their gear. And they always blame fresh 50s anyways and leave... sure, experience matters if ppl dont listen or no coordination or communication doesnt matter what gear you have ultimately.

Edited February 1, 2012 by ErisktheRed

[Felene]

Nobody is forcing you to read it. Or to project into it either. If it's such a waste of time why don't you go do something else?

 

Or is there something you are worried about? Like maybe your OP class getting nerfed and your gear being rendered irrelevant you might have to as most elitist PVPers say 'learn to play"?

 

Jump to conclusion much?

 

I am a clicker and I back-peddle all the time while my main is still lv44 medic op with lv44 valor.

 

All these "real pvper" and "elitist pvper" got nothing to do with me.

 

The problem at hand is your vision of pvp doesn't equal to my vision of pvp.

 

You think you are right and I think you are wrong, I don't think its a waste of tiem to voice my opinion simple as that.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Felene

[Morevil]

The issue isn't the gear... The issue is how Expertise works.

 

PVP stats are fine if you do them right.

 

I'm not sure who came up with the idea of giving expertise an increase of damage to a player, but it serves no purpose.

[RycheMykola]

SWG was around for a long time. DOT weapons went away after the CU. And even with the weapons you are talking about they degraded so they would not last forever. So someone getting lucky every now and then with a good slice or whatever did not give them a benefit forever.

 

Also, since everything was crafted everything was attainable.

my bad then, it was pre-CU. Things degraded, but it was not that bad.

 

Getting the weapon was luck off of Axvha Minh. But the armor was all crafted, and when you were an Armorsmith, it wasn't a big deal to get.

 

Thanks for making me miss the crafting in that game too. What server were you on? Starsider here!

[LordSemaj]

Oh I'm sorry, you thought this was an FPS game. See in MMO's there is this thing called progression. I know this is a foreign concept to you but it is what every MMO is based on.

 

Not DAOC, also known as the greatest PVP game to have ever been...

 

The end game loot was capped at an easily obtainable point, there was no gear grind. You hit level cap, you got your gear, then you PVP for the sheer sake of crushing your enemies.

 

Ah good times... before the birth of many of these fledgling gimme gamers who feel power should come from a time investment rather than knowledge.

 

To translate YOUR posts... "I want wins handed to me."

Edited February 1, 2012 by LordSemaj

[Torleen]

Jump to conclusion much?

 

I am a clicker and I back-peddle all the time while my main is still lv42 medic op with lv44 valor.

 

All these "real pvper" and "elitist pvper" got nothing to do with me.

 

The problem at hand is your vision of pvp doesn't equal to my vision of pvp.

 

You think you are right and I think you are wrong, I don't think its a waste of tiem to voice my opinion simple as that.

 

Ah, but you think you should lecture me into not voicing mine?

 

I don't think it is a waste of time to voice my opinion. Simple as that.

[pojectshadow]

SWG w So someone getting lucky every now and then with a good slice or whatever did not give them a benefit forever.

 

Also, since everything was crafted everything was attainable.

 

So because PVP gear which is permanent its bad? Everyone can get PVP its not about time but about luck most of the time if you where to PVP around 2 hours a day for 2 weeks you will probably get the full set getting the 60 valor is just grinding. But lets say all gear was equal for the hell of it. Enlighten me on this "PVP around player skills will be." Based on you complaining about OP; I can already tell how good your "skills" are.

[Torleen]

As it is now, it's TOO heavily reliant on gear. Not that there shouldn't be gear in the game at all... but not one set to rule them all type gear... Something to work towards is progression and a staple of MMOs, but imo to give you a SLIGHT advantage or interesting things without being completely necessary to have and without it makes everything imbalanced... and what about the future, alts, new ppl to SWTOR, slower progression ppl getting to 50 and PvP fresh... getting faceplanted by most everyone else in BM gear. That's how heavily the gear makes a difference, really. Just becomes gear > skill, not to say zero skill is still involved I've seen Centurion/fresh 50s do really well with a coord communicative team.

 

NOW 8 BM vs 8 BMs is on a more even level and would be more fun... there needs to be another 50s bracket almost so those valor 60 and thus can wear BM don't fight many freshs with low valor and no expertise or low level expertise gear. Yeah, pop issues with this.

 

It's also not fun for a long grinded BM (wont count the ones who exploited Illum) grouped with mostly fresh 50s and lose not because of skill but their gear. And they always blame fresh 50s anyways and leave... sure, experience matters if ppl dont listen or no coordination or communication doesnt matter what gear you have ultimately.

 

ABSOLUTELY. You hit it all there.

[RycheMykola]

The issue isn't the gear... The issue is how Expertise works.

 

PVP stats are fine if you do them right.

 

I'm not sure who came up with the idea of giving expertise an increase of damage to a player, but it serves no purpose.

The BIGGEST issue is having 0 Expertise.

 

Introducing crafted Armor, weapons, and mods with Expertise would REALLY help out new 50's to PVP.

[PlagaNerezza]

Your "fact" is BS. DAoC was successful for years without a gear treadmill. You got to level cap, you got your spellcrafted gear (which was all player made and easily obtainable with a minimum level of effort), and you were good to go. What killed that game was the introduction of required PvE to do RvR in Trials of Atlantis.

 

Shortly after ToA was released and the masses had a chance to discover what a giant mess it was, WoW promised better PvP that didn't require a stupid gear grind. Blizzard made it, and they've always produced fantastic games, so it must be true right? So people left, and DAoC mostly died.

 

By the time those of us who wanted real RvR and PvP realized we'd been duped, it was really too late and we'd all turned into carebears because we just did the PvE grind without thinking much about it after the ToA debacle in DAoC.

 

Yes, renown ranks and abilities made a difference, but when you integrate them into the base class like SWTOR has, they aren't necessary and never served as a major reason to RvR because after the first few you had the important abilities and you were good to go.

 

TL;DR - People who enjoy PvP and RvR do it because they enjoy the competition and they don't need any representative of their success other than a ranking scoreboard.

 

Guild wars did great as well which did not have a gear disparity system.

[Torleen]

So because PVP gear which is permanent its bad? Everyone can get PVP its not about time but about luck most of the time if you where to PVP around 2 hours a day for 2 weeks you will probably get the full set getting the 60 valor is just grinding. But lets say all gear was equal for the hell of it. Enlighten me on this "PVP around player skills will be." Based on you complaining about OP; I can already tell how good your "skills" are.

 

Yes. You can get insight into my skills because of my position.

 

I don't feel I need a gear crutch to be good at PVP.

 

Nor do I need an OP class to be good at PVP.

 

And anyone who feels they need either of the above has no skills to speak of.

[Torleen]

my bad then, it was pre-CU. Things degraded, but it was not that bad.

 

Getting the weapon was luck off of Axvha Minh. But the armor was all crafted, and when you were an Armorsmith, it wasn't a big deal to get.

 

Thanks for making me miss the crafting in that game too. What server were you on? Starsider here!

 

Tempest. Most of my guild is SWG vets.

[ImURmaster]

I know lot of the folks, including myself, have full sets of high tier PVP gear and haven't even done a single flashpoint or raid.

 

in light of this post:

 

 

I just wanted to disagree here... completely. "The game" isn't PVE and if it were you'd have a lot fewer subcribers.

 

I'd go so far as to say that the PVE in this game is terrible. Aside from the single player storylines and voice acting, it is total rubbish. Grinding through unimaginative Ops to get gear? Eternity vault, where it takes about 2 minutes to figure out and master the encounter? That's "the game"?

 

I guess once you're bored with normal mode, you can hop into hardmode ops where the devs spent 30 seconds coding an enrage mechanic into the mobs and then pretend like its a whole new experience.

 

PVP will keep this game on life support far longer than PVE raiders will. At least the PVP experience, even with only three warzones and a couple of world PVP areas, changes each time you do it.

 

Id say your either a liar or like talking about stuff you have no experience with. Either way you fail.

[Torleen]

Not DAOC, also known as the greatest PVP game to have ever been...

 

The end game loot was capped at an easily obtainable point, there was no gear grind. You hit level cap, you got your gear, then you PVP for the sheer sake of crushing your enemies.

 

Ah good times... before the birth of many of these fledgling gimme gamers who feel power should come from a time investment rather than knowledge.

 

To translate YOUR posts... "I want wins handed to me."

 

LordSemaj wins.... FATALITY....

[Babyfood]

Competition is about WINNING. Not about being fair. People do what it takes to win. They grind for hours and hours on end to get the gear they need to WIN. What you are saying is the equivalent to rigging the olympics to give normal people a chance to beat trained and gifted athletes. Those guys "no lifed" it to get where they are. They had to put WORK in to be competitive. You might say "well this is just a game durr" but so is basketball and football, and those games you watch are played by people who bust their asses to be where they are.

 

 

Yeah but if one team has brand new Nikes and the other has cardboard tied on with strings...

 

 

I'm a long time WoW'er. I am ok with some gear disparity. The top players, and more importantly, the tops teams should get something extra. The thing is that in WoW you could easily get the previous seasons gear or a lesser set from the current season and be competitive. If the centurion set in swtor were easy to get then a lot of the problem would be solved. it is however not easy to get....

 

 

I don't really see much of a problem with having the top pvp rewards be cosmetic and convenience features. I think people would still play wzs to get pro mounts or sweet looking gear to make your toon look how you want. How about a fleet jet pack so you can fly around the fleet :>

[LordSemaj]

I can play that game also.

 

You suggest that a new employee should be given the same 100k salary for showing up to work as the 20 year vet who has vastly more experience. In your world this is fair.

That analogy does not work, you're comparing apples to oranges. A salary is a form of wealth, not power. The correct analogy for business would be giving a 20 year veteran a position as Vice President even if a new applicant is more skilled and qualified. All because one put more time into the company than the other.

 

Thankfully we live in a world where a new company employee with a fantastic resume CAN be hired to be a Vice President, as merit surpasses time served. Equal opportunity employment is a great thing, just as equal opportunity PVP was for Dark Age of Camelot.

Edited February 1, 2012 by LordSemaj