What does the 1-49 bracket teach us about PVP gear?

[me_unknown]

i think there is a big misunderstanding.

 

i agree that gear shouldn't matter much in pvp.

 

BUT this game has to sides: pve and pvp. if you want that in pvp you are not forced of continues grinding for better gear you must separate pve and pvp gear. thus we have expertise.

 

now, currently when you hit 50 you are undergeared due to this difference. but this is only a ONE TIME difference. consider what would happen if this would got removed, if your pve gear would be a viable alternative:

future pve content would force every pvp player to go out a grind pve gear to stand a chance in pvp. the new pve gear that will get introduced will break pvp.

 

now this being said i can't deny that the current situation has its flaws in many ways. actually one is that the pvp gear is still too weak. future pve item could easily top the pvp gear. and the other main issue is that a fresh 50 is too much behind other already pvp geared players, which causes the frustration the op is talking about.

 

actually pvp gear should get more expertice and it should be able to gather good pvp gear BEFOR you hit 50. the latter though is already partially possible. you can get many viable stuff from vendors, dailies and gtn / crafted.

[Calei]

i think there is a big misunderstanding.

 

i agree that gear shouldn't matter much in pvp.

 

BUT this game has to sides: pve and pvp. if you want that in pvp you are not forced of continues grinding for better gear you must separate pve and pvp gear. thus we have expertise.

 

now, currently when you hit 50 you are undergeared due to this difference. but this is only a ONE TIME difference. consider what would happen if this would got removed, if your pve gear would be a viable alternative:

future pve content would force every pvp player to go out a grind pve gear to stand a chance in pvp. the new pve gear that will get introduced will break pvp.

 

now this being said i can't deny that the current situation has its flaws in many ways. actually one is that the pvp gear is still too weak. future pve item could easily top the pvp gear. and the other main issue is that a fresh 50 is too much behind other already pvp geared players, which causes the frustration the op is talking about.

 

actually pvp gear should get more expertice and it should be able to gather good pvp gear BEFOR you hit 50. the latter though is already partially possible. you can get many viable stuff from vendors, dailies and gtn / crafted.

 

You don't need expertise.

 

You could make the PVP gear the exact same as PVE gear. Same models, same stats, same textures. The only challenge that arises for developers is which channel is faster to obtain the gear? This is difficult for them due to the way thier PVP reward system functions in relation to how thier PVE reward system functions.

 

I could write a long report on this but, the fact of the matter is the developers want you to play as long as possible in order for you to keep paying the subscription fee. Chasing gear upgrades is thier most innovative game design system that they can come up with. This design system will be around until most people realize that they're just running on a hamster wheel.

[carbocat]

People are leaving the 50's bracket and re-rolling characters so that they can continue to PVP in the 1-49 Brackets.

 

Lets really think about what that means.

 

It means that people would rather do the PVE grind AGAIN then put up with being the equivalent of being grey mobs in WZs who's purpose seems to be to entertain no one but the people who are lucky enough to have more free time or unlucky enough to simply have no life who get to kill you over and over again.

 

It means that PVP is MORE exciting when your adrenaline is pumping because you are in a pitched battle with someone who does the same damage and takes the same damage you do and it really comes down to quick thinking, reflexes and strategy that you EARNED through practice rather then because you have a statistical advantage over your opponent. Where the timing of every shot counts. And obviously that is going to be more exciting then losing simply because your opponent hits far harder and takes far less damage.

 

Gear based "PVP" is not a test of a player vs a player unless people really think that because someone was able to do more repetitive tasks over and over again because they don't have kids, or a job or a life (Or simply are willing to sacrifice those things they should be spending more time on) is somehow something that people can be tested for and be lauded as if they "accomplished" something.

 

The grind olympics? Is that something you want to be remembered for? You were better at wasting more time in your life then someone else so you "win"?

 

If we are going to have brackets, I think we should have a bracket where Expertise is shut off. ESPECIALLY if you are thinking E-sport. And ESPECIALLY if you are going to have a PVP rating system.

 

I have a feeling that bracket would be far more populated.

 

1-49 bracket? what have you smoked?

[Anthiel]

Well when people started playing all those games like Doom, UnReal, or thousands of others they all had the same gear.

 

PVP if fun without the gear. Otherwise your argument would be that no one ever buys or plays these other games?

 

The problem is the PVP players insist they need a assentive to PVP, this is a lie.

 

I do not need a assentive to PVE or PVP. It is a game.

 

Figure it out and do not accept lies based on no proof.

 

like all the proof in this post? if getting stuff didnt work in pvp then guess what the proffesional they pay alot more than alot of us make would have told them this years ago and we wouldnt be here right now but it does and he did tell them that and then here we are.

[TItanten]

i think there is a big misunderstanding.

 

i agree that gear shouldn't matter much in pvp.

 

BUT this game has to sides: pve and pvp. if you want that in pvp you are not forced of continues grinding for better gear you must separate pve and pvp gear. thus we have expertise.

 

now, currently when you hit 50 you are undergeared due to this difference. but this is only a ONE TIME difference. consider what would happen if this would got removed, if your pve gear would be a viable alternative:

future pve content would force every pvp player to go out a grind pve gear to stand a chance in pvp. the new pve gear that will get introduced will break pvp.

 

now this being said i can't deny that the current situation has its flaws in many ways. actually one is that the pvp gear is still too weak. future pve item could easily top the pvp gear. and the other main issue is that a fresh 50 is too much behind other already pvp geared players, which causes the frustration the op is talking about.

 

actually pvp gear should get more expertice and it should be able to gather good pvp gear BEFOR you hit 50. the latter though is already partially possible. you can get many viable stuff from vendors, dailies and gtn / crafted.

 

Gear should not factor into PVP at all no matter where it's obtained.

[Lividcalm]

Oh I'm sorry, you thought this was an FPS game. See in MMO's there is this thing called progression. I know this is a foreign concept to you but it is what every MMO is based on.

 

Not really.

 

I have been playing MMO's since Underlight, an old RP game from MPlayer/Lyra Studios that most of you probably never even heard of. That game was not gear based at all.

 

In fact, not all MMO's are based on gear progression. Asherons Call was not based on gear progression. SWG was not based on gear progression. Guild Wars was not based on gear progression.

 

Just to name a few that some of you may have heard of.

 

It wasn't until WoW that gear progression became the "norm". Personally I think it's one of the concepts that has ruined PvP in MMO's.

 

Open world PvP in Asherons Call was exciting every night. No gear rewards.

 

Open world PvP in SWG was exciting every night. No gear rewards.

 

Open world PvP in WoW PRE-BG's was exciting every night. No gear rewards untli BG's came.

 

Now-a-days PvP in most MMO's is a grind. A mindless, annoying grind where your skill means little and the gear you have means everything.

 

Thats not PvP, its GvG.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Lividcalm

[NyQuilFast]

Well currently 50 pvp looks EXACTLY like this comic. I actually liked PvP pre 50 after the bracket was put up... but @50 skill no longer matters in "PvP": the 20k HP 500 Expertise face roll the fresh 50's no matter the skill level..

 

Here's the example, i have 0 skill on Jugger.. but when I played one PvP round on my brother's Jugger that falls under the "20k HP 500 Expertise" class i was steam rolling people with anything less come armor wise.

[shazariahl]

Nope. I don't want gear to matter.

 

Player vs Player.

 

Not gear vs. gear.

 

Come on, if you are a PVPer you don't need the crutch. Don't hide behind your gear.

 

But if pvp gear doesn't matter, pve gear still will. We will have early wow again, where people do high end raids, get epic gear, then go pvp for the heck of it, and rofl stomp the actual pvpers because they have epic gear, and the pvpers who spent all their time pvping instead of raiding don't have any gear including pvp gear. Unless you want to somehow eliminate gear all together, like give everyone just base stats in WZs or something. But personally, I like getting rewarded for my pvp. I still have the thrill of victory, but I also get gear. Win win, IMO.

 

As for hiding behind the gear, if you are a pvper, won't you have the gear too? If everyone gets champion/bm gear, then its back to skill vs skill, which is what you said you want. If you are really a pvper, you'll get the gear.

[Torleen]

But if pvp gear doesn't matter, pve gear still will. We will have early wow again, where people do high end raids, get epic gear, then go pvp for the heck of it, and rofl stomp the actual pvpers because they have epic gear, and the pvpers who spent all their time pvping instead of raiding don't have any gear including pvp gear. Unless you want to somehow eliminate gear all together, like give everyone just base stats in WZs or something. But personally, I like getting rewarded for my pvp. I still have the thrill of victory, but I also get gear. Win win, IMO.

 

As for hiding behind the gear, if you are a pvper, won't you have the gear too? If everyone gets champion/bm gear, then its back to skill vs skill, which is what you said you want. If you are really a pvper, you'll get the gear.

 

It's fine that PVP gear will be competitive with PVE gear. What we don't need is for it to be an auto win to whomever has it.

[glenbruton]

It's fine that PVP gear will be competitive with PVE gear. What we don't need is for it to be an auto win to whomever has it.

 

this ^

[Nethershadow]

Pretty sure balancing out your stats on gear is part of the skill thing. Right now most people just dump as much as they want into expertise and hope its the best stats for PvP, eventually with testing done people will find that for their class this is not always the case. Gear tailored to your spec and playstyle is part of the skill that is in MMO PvP.

 

Without a noticable progression with time investment they might as well remove the leveling all together and let everyone end game everything PvE included. PvP gearing is in response to raid gearing, it creates a progression for PvP so that a PvE hero can't come in with their gear (world or WZ) and demolish the PvPers. Removing the PvP gear doesn't level out the playing field, now instead of getting kicked all over the field by the PvPer who has spent his time PvPing you get demolished by the PvEer who just wants to get a few kicks in for the day. That is unless you go and PvE for their gear.

 

This is a arguement that soo many use and it has always had a very simple fix to it.

 

Stat cap.

 

There everyone is on par regardless of where they got gear.

[Hishikiroda]

I've been reading a lot, not all of the comments in regards to pvp concerns on a couple of these threads, and i find it all rather interesting. I personally have never been into pvp. I don't generally enjoy FPS or pvp type games at all, when i played WoW i simply dabbled but it was never my thing, Rift and GW i never even tried... With that said...

 

SWTOR PVP honestly has me hooked. Do i think it could be better even with limited knowledge? Sure, some of the ideas i've thought of have mirrored what a lot of people have posted that they would like changed, but i do still have fun. Currently i have been leveling doing almost nothing but PvP, and because of that my level has far exceeded my class quests (since i am someone who likes both PvE and now PvP as well).

 

One of the things i enjoy about the warzones right now is seeing how i rank up against people, seeing how well or how terribly i did that game. Each time is something different and each time i try and do better and learn a little bit. Will i be one of the greatest PvPers on the server? Probably not, but i think i will eventually get to the point where i am pretty dang good!

 

One thing that does have me worried is this disparity once i reach 50 however. I play on the republic side, and from what i can tell, it would appear that not a lot of people have the same kind of gear / stats that the empire have due to exploits, or time, or whatever the reason may be. I will still PvP my butt off so i can reach the rank i want, i'll still do random quests in PvE, i'll even raid a bit if i can.

 

TL:DR?

 

What's my end goal? Why would i want to endure being terrible at PvP for what could potentially be a rather long time? So that when eventually many people catch up, or when i catch up to the people who have the great gear, we can all be on nearly the same footing and finally have good, evenly matched games. I will continue to strive against adversity so that at some point i will be on the same playing field as those who were once above me.

 

And besides, getting all those extra titles is pretty nice... ... especially since a lot of the titles on planets in PvE are busted

Edited February 4, 2012 by Hishikiroda

[ColeWorld]

Posted this in an earlier topic.

 

 

 

Allow for a pvp queue called "bare bones" or whatever the heck you feel like calling it.

 

 

In that, all stats are equalized to a certain point for your class and spec of your choosing (So a Corruption healer would have less will power and more presence than a corruption one)

 

 

In this lobby there would be no such thing as expertise or gear advantage period. Just letting you see how well you match up against someone without any external factors. In a sense this would be SWTOR's "e-sport" quality. In this type however nothing would be able to be earned, medals can be obtained but they give you no reward whatsoever. Victory is your only reward.

 

 

Hopefully with a solution like this everyone will be happy.

 

 

Those who just want a challenge? Happy they get to go against others who want just a pure test. For a person like me i'm totally satisfied with just pvping for the sake of going against other people, I don't need a reward. I'm certain theres at least one person on the game thats the same way (Forever alone QQ)

 

 

For those who want to feel like their time is worth it and they earn something? Give them the regular warzone queue. They get to get their reward, while not getting whined at for winning "solely" because of "Gear Gap".

 

 

Those who want gear?

[Edex]

Or they could just have decided to cap themselves after gaining all the expertise they need to noob stomp. How to do this? Strip the pvp weapons for a max of 25 expertise per enhancement, slap it on oranges, pub stomp making sure to leave before you gain that nasty experience that would make you 50.

[Jooji]

The level 1-49 bracket is grossly imbalanced because it has no PvP gear. Have you ever gone up against a team with 4 mercs spamming tracer in the 1-49 bracket? It's insane. Also operatives post nerf are still insane in 1-49 warzones. While I don't think expertise should be the stat to balance classes, it kinda serves that purpose at 50.

[Astridd]

The problem is elite premades in elite gear in their elite comlink. They should play in major league, not steamrolling every AutoPUGs they encounter. It's just not fun for both sides.

[Jooji]

The problem is elite premades in elite gear in their elite comlink. They should play in major league, not steamrolling every AutoPUGs they encounter. It's just not fun for both sides.

 

Elite premades would love to be able to play full 8v8. But that isn't in the game!

[Edex]

Elite premades would love to be able to play full 8v8. But that isn't in the game!

 

Some play 10 vs 6, as warzones dont shutdown unless you exceed players by more than 2 Too many bugs and exploits atm to take any of this as even a half hearted attempt at pvp.

[ColeWorld]

The problem is elite premades in elite gear in their elite comlink. They should play in major league, not steamrolling every AutoPUGs they encounter. It's just not fun for both sides.

 

They aren't the problem. If the PUG group is smart enough they can conquer a premade every now and then.

 

 

Its not knowing your class that leads to success

 

 

Its knowing how your class interacts with others that will bring victory.

[Gurdbud]

Having gear matter in pvp is honestly the dumbest thing about MMO pvp.

 

When you can win a fight before a shot is launched just because you outgear somone does not make a good game.

 

The problem is, how do you get people to pvp if gear doesn't matter and they don't have that carrot on a stick?

 

A score board maybe? Most people are competitive.

[badTasteee]

Oh I'm sorry, you thought this was an FPS game. See in MMO's there is this thing called progression. I know this is a foreign concept to you but it is what every MMO is based on.

 

Wrong. It is what WoW is based on. There are more than enough MMOs out there where gear does not matter including games like Ultima Online, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Vanilla Age of Conan, Star Trek Online etc.

 

A permanent scoreboard or ranking system would be way better than the gear based grind we have now. Unfortunately Bioware decided to go down the same path as Blizzard and there is nothing that can change that now.

Edited February 4, 2012 by badTasteee

[NidesIvmorch]

I agree with OP for the most part. My favorite PvP/RvR experience was in DaoC where we just fought over keeps all day. No hunt for gear, just fighting people.

 

Unfortunately, games now a days are leaning towards the carrot idea. I don't think the gear hunt is as much of an issue as the PvP stat is.

[Krondorf]

ya most of the people in those brackets are still trying to level to 50 though too. And the others that reroll to play in a lowbie bracket aren't good pvpers and are too lazy to grind gear.

 

This is a mmo. You have to reward players for investing their time and energy building a character up. Why should you just be able to ding 50 and come in a WZ and dome me when I've put all this effort into the game that you haven't? Why don't you go play an FPS if that's the kind of equal playing field you want. I want my time and energy to mean something. If you weren't such a brat then you could suck it up and grind the gear out like everyone else in EVERY OTHER MMO

 

Well, Swtor has potential to be different and unique.... and it's starting to do that.

Therefore if you are not happy with the coming change for the better, for your future alts as well, then you know what choices you have at your will.

Like you said, there are many mmos that uses the formula that you favour.

[_Scattered_]

Just give these douches full champion for free, I don't really care. Just stop the stupid whining.

 

Next thing they'll be complaining about the gear gap between bm and champion which is nearly non existent.

 

Seriously you realise that most of the best players are actually bm, sure you guys are getting double stomped by better players who also have better gear but don't pretend gear is the only reason you are failing.

 

Mmo pvpers utilize whatever they can to be better, the pvpers who just turned 50 will be making sure they have at least 22 moded gear in all slots, which is actually not much worse than centurion. They know how to play.

 

I have fought many players in game, yes I out geared most, but that doesn't explain why I have literally destroyed 95% of them. The other 5% actually knew how to play and made for a challenging fight. What I assumed was simply class 1v1 imbalance and a gear gap was instead mostly because most players suck.

Edited February 4, 2012 by _Scattered_

[Krondorf]

Just give these douches full champion for free, I don't really care. Just stop the stupid whining.

 

Next thing they'll be complaining about the gear gap between bm and champion which is nearly non existent.

 

Seriously you realise that most of the best players are actually bm, sure you guys are getting double stomped by better players who also have better gear but don't pretend gear is the only reason you are failing.

 

Mmo pvpers utilize whatever they can to be better, the pvpers who just turned 50 will be making sure they have at least 22 moded gear in all slots, which is actually not much worse than centurion. They know how to play.

 

I have fought many players in game, yes I out geared most, but that doesn't explain why I have literally destroyed 95% of them. The other 5% actually knew how to play and made for a challenging fight. What I assumed was simply class 1v1 imbalance and a gear gap was instead mostly because most players suck.

 

If you are so good at pvp, why are you complaining?

 

A pro pvper would say something like " Hell Yeah! Fresh blood for new challenges ! Bring it on!!! ". Theyre the real pvpers that I respect.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Krondorf