Announcing The Old Republic Guild Summit

[Dragonexadon]

One thing that would be nice to do at the summit. If all the guild leaders met with each other for open discussion on tips and tricks on guild management. Something that could be done during down time perhaps as I would not want it to take away from time with the bioware devs.

 

another topic I want to bring up: is there any plans on the table for guild management via mobile device

[Dragonexadon]

I've played a few MMO's now and I've been a part of guilds that do a lot together. I've quested/leveled with fellow guild members, completed many instances in full guild groups, completed raids as part of a guild group...

 

Agreed. Every MMO I have played I have done everything with a guild. MMOs and Guilds go hand in hand.

[Wendalyn]

I was wondering if your done picking the group you want for this summit. Some of us that are guild leaders would really like to be included I'm sure. Is there a way for you to get some feed back from those of us that won't get to attend. I understand some questions and feed back would be repeated but it is good to know that we as guild leaders get some say. This is a wonderful opportunity for us guild leaders. Time for learning and sharing. Edited February 6, 2012 by Wendalyn

[Dragonexadon]

If you look at the OP they give a survey you can fill out for a chance to be picked. The deadline for this survey is the 10th of this month (February). 4 more days left as of this posting!

 

Also , from what I understand, you will find out if you were selected by the 15th (for those of us who applied on the survey)

 

There were several guilds that got picked prior to the announcement of this event. Those selections are finished however. So the only way to get in now is by filling out that survey.

[Wendalyn]

I filled out the survey, but if I don't get picked, I would like some kind of a forum or discussion in the future. IF something comes to mind at least we guild leaders would have a place to go

[Wendalyn]

I don't see this as PR but as an opportunity for Guild Leaders to actually do something with and for thier guild. We made guilds for a reason. To help others and ourselves enjoy the game more.

[Strayjack]

This will just be some PR nonsense.

 

This. Fix the game first then call for a guild meet. What about server population? You don't need a freaking guild meet to make sense of this situation.

 

This is just a way for BW Austin to make it look like the game is totally awesome. I'm dying of boredom while you call for a guild meet...

[Dragonexadon]

This. Fix the game first then call for a guild meet. What about server population? You don't need a freaking guild meet to make sense of this situation.

 

This is just a way for BW Austin to make it look like the game is totally awesome. I'm dying of boredom while you call for a guild meet...

 

They are coming out with new content in march which seems to be the standard time table for new/free content for an MMO.

 

also having this meeting is not putting a halt any content from coming out. Or them from fixing box.

[Rundin]

Big giant waste of money, resources (which is also money and time), time, and money.

 

Seriously, what does Bioware hope to accomplish? Are they really on the fence about what players want? Do they really expect people to shell out airfare or ...

 

The rest of this message is pointless belittling. To the first section posted, getting together serious players who are willing to "shell out" money for their travel expenses and actually showing up with a positive attitude is smart. The dev's can weed out potentially useless whining and redundant questions by limiting the invitations. The developers, I'm sure, do not get to enjoy the game quite like those of us who play it purely for pleasure. They are constantly looking at the game as a job or project that needs fine tuning. Sitting around questing, doing dailies, joining a guild and spending countless hours doing anything but work is nearly unheard of. Look at it this way, does a football player look at the game like a fan? No. Does a carpenter look at a piece of furniture the same way the customer buying it does? No. They need people who do not think of the game as a job. As for the last question - if you cannot afford to go, don't.

[Fiachsidhe]

.

 

All your message was pointless reinforcement of PR nonsense. For all sorts of information on why you're gullible for buying into this PR stunt, read all of the posts on all of the pages of this thread.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Fiachsidhe

[TheOuroborus]

This will just be some PR nonsense.

 

Agreed. You'll note it's just a Q&A followed by a PR presentation what they've already designed (and who knows when they'll implement that). I doubt very much if player feedback will have much effect at this point (did it ever?). I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

 

I agree that Guild support & expansion will make or break this game and if they don't do something soon, folks aren't going to pay monthly for what is realistically a single-player game.

[Thug-Ra]

Great idea.

 

I just hope that BioWare knows how to filter out the pleas for making the game easy and more candy like.

 

 

Games should be challenging in order to keep our interest.

Fast easy leveling, pretty gear and giant flashy mounts do not present a challenge. Yet, this is notoriously what gamers ask for.

 

Games like WoW have been totally destroyed because the developers gave the players what they think they want.

 

The post I'm quoting is a good example of the kind of thing you can expect at a "Guild Summit".

 

1.) WoW peaked in popularity during the same expansion as the "easy and candy like" complaints: Wrath of the Lich King. Yes, epics were easy to get. The game was also more fun, not because it was easy to obtain gear, but because everyone could find things to do, and goals to achieve for their character.

 

2.) Making a game hard doesn't attract players. Vanguard: Saga of Heroes was one of the hardest MMOs. Have you heard of it? No? That's because it wasn't popular. Now it's free to play and no further content is being developed. That's what happens when you cater a game to the hardest of the hardcore: 95% of potential players can't even level, so they get mad, so they quit.

 

This approach to MMO design is rather like building a car that takes a Ph.D. in Engineering to understand. Sure, you CAN do that, and for those few people who comprehend its operation, it'll probably feel awesome. But what's the sales forecast look like for that business model, exactly?

 

3.) WoW began to lose popularity precisely when they decided to make raids hard again (Cataclysm). There's your second counter-example. They're still making hard raids and they've lost around a third of their subscribers. That was even before they announced their "kung fu pandas" nonsense.

 

In fact, this is exactly why you shouldn't listen to anyone willing to attend a "Guild Summit". Leading a guild and being a hardcore player doesn't mean you have the slightest clue about how to make a game marketable (or lend it staying power).

Edited February 7, 2012 by Thug-Ra

[Fiachsidhe]

The post I'm quoting is a good example of the kind of thing you can expect at a "Guild Summit".

 

1.) WoW peaked in popularity during the same expansion as the "easy and candy like" complaints: Wrath of the Lich King. Yes, epics were easy to get. The game was also more fun, not because it was easy or hard to obtain gear but because everyone could find things to do.

 

2.) Making a game hard doesn't attract players. Vanguard: Saga of Heroes was one of the hardest MMOs. Have you heard of it? No? That's because it wasn't popular. Now it's free to play and no further content is being developed. That's what happens when you cater a game to the hardest of the hardcore: 95% of potential players can't even level, so they get mad, so they quit. It's like building a car that takes a Ph.D. in Engineering to understand. Yeah, you CAN do that, and for those few people who understand it, it'll probably feel awesome. But what's the sales forecast look like for that business model, exactly?

 

3.) WoW began to lose popularity precisely when they made raids hard (Cataclysm). There's your second counter-example. They're still making hard raids and they've lost around a third of their subscribers. That was even before they announced their "kung fu pandas" drivel.

 

And THAT is exactly why you shouldn't listen to anyone willing to attend a "Guild Summit".

 

Well said.

[jasoneth]

3.) WoW began to lose popularity precisely when they decided to make raids hard again (Cataclysm). There's your second counter-example. They're still making hard raids and they've lost around a third of their subscribers. That was even before they announced their "kung fu pandas" nonsense.

The current and last tier of raid content in WoW is actually much, much easier, relative to the first two tiers. It seems that Blizzard has learned its lesson, and realises that making things too challenging will just scare people away. Adding the Looking For Raid tool with its face-roll difficulty further appeases the majority who aren't really looking for a challenge, but even the normal 10-man content is pretty easy to get through.

 

So it seems you're right, and I'd guess the raid content that comes with the pandas will be pretty accessible.

[DTuloJr]

The current and last tier of raid content in WoW is actually much, much easier, relative to the first two tiers. It seems that Blizzard has learned its lesson, and realises that making things too challenging will just scare people away. Adding the Looking For Raid tool with its face-roll difficulty further appeases the majority who aren't really looking for a challenge, but even the normal 10-man content is pretty easy to get through.

 

So it seems you're right, and I'd guess the raid content that comes with the pandas will be pretty accessible.

 

Blizzard made a game that's accessible to casual players, yet still retains modes of play challenging enough for most other players. THAT is why is grew in popularity. Over the course of seven years, it's grown and shrunk with the ebb and flow of various market forces, yet overall, it's maintained a massive edge over its competition, due to the simple fact that Blizzard listens to their testsrs and customers.

 

BioWare AUSTIN released a game to the market that *IGNORED* major forms of input from the majority of their pre-release testers, and fell victim to 1) developer arrogance, and 2) developer comfort, due directly to 3) gushing fanboy's that fawned and praised every aspect of the game, and vehemently shouted down even the most minor forms of written or vocalized criticism. Accessibility, feature sets, mid game content, end game content, and storylines, were all shredded, repeatedly. Now, after the fact, BWA may finally be doing something about it.

 

I certainly hope they do. Too bad they've lost 1.25 years of development time and have to play catch up.

 

And for the record, "WoW Pandas" is probably the most widely requested "missing" feature from original Warcraft lore. Pandarens aren't new. There were legal reasons why they were missing.

[Kunovega]

To all of those whining that this should be more "open to everyone" stop and realize for a moment what you are asking:

 

1 million players

 

All of them given 1 minute to express an idea to bioware

 

1 million minutes is 16,666 hours... which is 696 days

 

You just asked bioware to spend 696 days of continuous face time to give every person in the game a chance to give 1 minute of feedback

 

This is a ludicrous ignorant suggestion completely devoid of any logical mechanic capable of creating a functional event in the real world

 

Instead you know what works? Having maybe 100 or so dedicated members of the community who are themselves representatives of smaller communities (ie. guilds)

 

How else do you expect them to do it? They can garner useable feedback from a few dozen people who themselves have collected feedback from hundreds or thousands. Which is what they are doing. A conference like this is helpful.

 

Allowing a million people to chatter at them at once, would not be.

 

As for answering the question of why they need this feedback at all? Its pretty freaking simple and obvious: they get a million suggestions a day, 90% of them are contradictory. Its more important for them to figure out the most useful and important ones to focus on rather than let themselves be over whelmed with ignorant noise.

 

Anyone not understanding that this event is a good thing for the game has no foundation in logic or reasoning and is more interested in making noise than in helping improve the game. And before you argue against that sentiment, look very closely at the logistics required to make anything like this happen with any substantial number of people.

 

Ive worked in and around the game industry from time to time, I've been an MMO player for more than a decade, I've been a guild leader in various MMO (and currently hold a senior position in a SWTOR guild). Having feedback sessions like this is a rare and important step for a company that actually wants to think long term. Far too many companies are operating in a vacuum or worse they are trying to listen to a million voices at once.

 

I wish I could go (but I haven't been invited and probably wouldnt have the extra cash on hand even if I was), but I have friends in Austin (who work in the game industry) and I am hopeful at least some of them will be going, if not myself.

 

I ask all of you to stop and think before making suggestions that are not realistic (like having this be open to everyone as a few people have suggested).

 

----

Good Luck Bioware, you are gonna need it.

 

regards,

Vince

http://www.linkedin.com/in/vincentbeers

[Jhoren]

It makes more sense to invite guild leaders to this summit than random players. In order to lead a guild, the guild leader has to have some measure of communication skills, which is a prerequisite for a meaningful dialog with the developers. A random player might very well not have that, making the money and time spent on said person a giant waste.

 

Guild leaders also represent a number of people. Any guild leader worth a damn will gather issues and questions from his/her guild-mates and bring them to the summit. Any guild-member could conceivably do this, but the guild leader is more likely to already possess the organisatorial skills needed to gather and present these issues and questions in a constructive manner.

 

The summit is a good opportunity for quality feedback and dialog. Good opportunities like that don't come everyday in life. This opportunity doesn't cost anyone who doesn't want to go anything at all. Bug-fixes and game development will still be rolled out on a weekly basis.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Jhoren

[Fezzhan]

 

3.) WoW began to lose popularity precisely when they decided to make raids hard again (Cataclysm). There's your second counter-example. They're still making hard raids and they've lost around a third of their subscribers. That was even before they announced their "kung fu pandas" nonsense.

 

I disagree... Wow began to lose popularity cuz the game was at the end. Experienced players after 6\7 years (but even 3\4) have had enough to do always the same things... yeah you have new classes new races but the game is always that...

All the content from lvl 1 to 85 is too simple now (you can level at triple speed tahn previous..) The so called "heroic raids" are diff just for the first 3 try.. after become a piece of cake.. (BT and Karazhan were difficult.. not FL...)

I think the sweet pandas are just a try to find some asian follower before the end...

[Dragonexadon]

In fact, this is exactly why you shouldn't listen to anyone willing to attend a "Guild Summit". Leading a guild and being a hardcore player doesn't mean you have the slightest clue about how to make a game marketable (or lend it staying power).

 

It feels like people who don't to support the summit will often turn to this argument. However Bioware already stated they invited guild leaders of all types. That would include casual guilds.

 

Bioware has already done a great job in making operations accessible to everyone (Normal modes are pretty easy). I doubt that model will change. The main thing I want to see changed with that is gear scaling with the level of difficulty. They have three sets of gear, I always wondered why the three sets did not drop per each mode of difficulty.

 

Anyway Bioware already stated that they will have a way for it to be open to the public as well (I would guess by a live stream and chat system) so everyone has a chance to submit their own feedback at the summit.

 

As well as there are always other means to get your voice heard. When has Bioware had a history of doing things only a select few wanted? Never. People have complained that previous summits were too closed off. And now they are more open. If there is enough support for this summit perhaps it can be even more open the next time around.

 

You guys are a bunch of negative nancies

Edited February 7, 2012 by Dragonexadon

[DTuloJr]

The most basic flaw of the entire "Guild Summit", is the underlying belief that Guild Masters 1) WILL represent viewpoints other than their own, and, 2) CAN represent viewpoints other than their own. The logic of GM = Capable and Objective Representative is seriously flawed. The fact that subscriber money is going to be spent to fly an individual out to Texas and put them up in a hotel, when the only viewpoint they are humanly capable of actually representing is one they themselves believe in, i.e. "personal viewpoints", is rather insulting to every single individual not invited to participate in "event".

[Dragonexadon]

The fact that subscriber money is going to be spent to fly an individual out to Texas and put them up in a hotel, when the only viewpoint they are humanly capable of actually representing is one they themselves believe in, i.e. "personal viewpoints", is rather insulting to every single individual not invited to participate in "event".

 

It's not insulting at all. Your 15$ a month grants you the right to play and receive updates. That includes: patchs, bug fixes, or general game content.

 

I think it would be time better spent to contact your guild master and see if they plan to go. Create a forum post on your guild website on all the concerns you have. . If done right they could voice many people.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Dragonexadon

[Pelell]

The fact that Bioware's money is going to be spent to fly an individual out to Texas and put them up in a hotel, when the only viewpoint they are humanly capable of actually representing is one they themselves believe in, i.e. "personal viewpoints", is rather insulting to every single individual not invited to participate in "event".

 

Fixed that for you.

 

I guess I don't understand all the rage. Bioware is using this opportunity to glean more info from the player base. I acknowledge that the majority of people upset by this are forum users who feel that because they provided info on the game here, that should be enough to work from. I also recognize that many of the people I have seen posting in this thread feel their suggestions have fallen on deaf ears, and for quite some time.

 

That being said, this event provides a definitive unique place to exchange ideas and information. And where I come from, it's better to have too much information than not enough. Does it suck that there was little notification for this event for players to plan around? Yes, I think so. Is it a gamebreaker? Nope. I have faith that whatever info Bioware gets from this summit can be utilized in a positive way regardless of whether it's Guild leaders, PvP'ers, RP'ers, or Joe Single player that are offering input. Who knows, depending on the success of this one maybe they will do a Dev/PVP summit in the future. Now that I would like to see. Just my 2 credits.

[Alexia-Moi-Voss]

Actually you can bet that bioware is not going to pay to fly the individual out to Austin. In fact it will most likely be "Travel/Food/Lodging" are to be pied by the individual

[Wendalyn]

Those of you that are complaining, YOU BOGGLE ME! Take the opportunity here to voice yourselves with something other than complaining. A solution to your problem maybe? People! Really?

[Thug-Ra]

It feels like people who don't to support the summit will often turn to this argument. However Bioware already stated they invited guild leaders of all types. That would include casual guilds.

 

I think you missed my explanation about why a casual guild leader is far, far less likely to have the time, money, or interest for a "Guild Summit" than a hardcore guild leader.

 

Re. Negativity/feedback: Exactly what purpose is served by gathering feedback in this way, when even a cursory understanding of human nature is enough to realize "this might be a fundamentally flawed tactic"? Saying "this isn't likely to go well" isn't being negative. That's being realistic.

 

Re. WoW and raids: You can argue the whys and wherefores all you like. WoW's numbers peaked during the expansion all the hardcore players called "too easy". Their numbers dropped sharply during the expansion all the casual players called "too hard". Neither of these is deniable. I did posit, without the data to prove, that I think WoW's numbers peaked because all players had goals they could work on. But that's tangential to the main point I'm trying to make: "hardcore only" equals "no subscribers". Casuals aren't just the majority of the player base, they're where the *money* comes from. (Side note/other tangent: There is a true workaround for this, but it involves the dreaded "microtransactions" model instead of a flat subscriber fee)

 

Re. raiding in general: I'm inclined to agree that "people got tired of doing the same thing" and left WoW because of it. But that "same thing" is raiding. There are only so many ways to make players jump when you say "jump". At some point, the very principle of "large # of people dodging ground effects while one 'tank' keeps the big bad guy's attention and four healers spend their night turning yellow bars into green ones" is going to start feeling tired and stale, no matter how you slice it. Reskinning raids to have light sabers doesn't change anything. The declining numbers in WoW suggest (to me) that it's time to move on. There were hundreds of directions a Star Wars MMO could take; raiding doesn't need to be a sole focus, or even a main one.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Thug-Ra