Technical community discussion : Nerfing Tracer Missle

[Treplos]

It can hit that high when running buffs, but with a 3min CD on Adrenal use, those crits aren't the norm. And again, any class can do silly damage with buffs running, that's not something exclusive to TM.

 

And yet for that same reason a class was nerfed, because without those buffs the class damage was normal lol Do you see the hypocrisy yet?

 

PS: The 4k was only with Biochem buff, no relic and no expertise buff.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Treplos

[Machazareel]

And yet for that same reason a class was nerfed, because without those buffs the class damage was normal lol Do you see the hypocrisy yet?

 

Not really, because I was against that nerf as well.

 

PS: The 4k was only with Biochem buff, no relic and no expertise buff.

 

I honestly find that hard to believe. I also run with the Biochem buff 24/7, and I'm in full champ. There had to have been other contributing factors, like already having reduced armor from another source, or he was under the effect of the Mara buff or something like that.

 

I suppose it could have been someone who had ripped out crit/surge mods from a bunch of other high end gear, but I've already stated that I feel that that's really gaming the system, and is a flaw in the gear design of the game.

 

Edit: Actually not just the gear design, but stat design in general. For someone like an Arsenal Merc, damage stats like accuracy, alacrity and power just aren't nearly useful as crit/surge is. Accuracy is all but worthless due to Tech attacks having a 100% chance to hit, even though it does help with Railshot and Unload. Alacrity is also not all that great because we have a 1.5s GCD anyway, and while faster casts can allow you to cast and move quicker, it's not going to help you nearly as much as crit/surge. Power is a useful stat, but in the amounts that you are given on gear pieces when compared to crit/surge, you'll often be better off going with crit/surge.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Machazareel

[Barzarel]

I got 500 expertise too in mostly Champ gear and got hit for more than 4k. I even posted a photo of it. I can post my stats if you do not believe me. But you will probably not believe me anyway, because you already decided not to. With full house of cons/buffs TM can hit for over 5k with good gear.

 

Because again shield and absorb mechanic doesn't work against kinetic damage, meaning that only armor and hard ability which overall do damage reduction work, and then top sided having tracer missile self buff itself with armor debuffs, So in end damage increase hits 20%, now take into account that armor debuffs in this game still stackable as it stands, how much damage does this not amount to when you have no damage migitation against it, while on side hand damage keeps scaling up.

 

I know quite a few compare tracer missile to force lightning spam, but our force lightning doesn't keep scaling its damage, while its also not migitated damage it doesn't keep buffing itself.

[ugig]

Lol you don't know how it works

 

Snipe has 1.5 Cast

Snipe is physical so it does way less damage then TM

Cover is bugged, and you are INTERUPTABLE

Cover means delay

Cover means unable to attack people under you due to another "unkown effect" bug

 

Sure, remove the armor debuff and change TM to physical, then do same damage as snipe and you're lucky to ever see it do more then 1.2k damage.

 

 

PS. Snipers have to spam snipe to proc Ambush and Followthru, so its same concept. Also Sniper get energy problems in 3 snipes in a row

 

So because of bugs in your class/spec core mechanics, then our core mechanics need to be nerfed? wut?

 

Also, you say you are lucky to ever see it do over 1.2k? whats your crit/surge at? and cunning? also is that agains tankish targets? cause i see hits of 500-1500 vs tanks usually.

[Treplos]

by that logic smash needs to be nerfed, lightning needs to be nerfed, snipe needs to be nerfed, a long with any other skill that can hit for 4k against against people with no pvp gear by people with full pvp gear

 

They crit for that much against people with full PVP gear. Try again.

[Zarthorn]

Since this is a sensible discussion, I will try to keep my feedback as constructive as possible, this is not ment to insult, berate or goad anyone, this is just my thoughts on tracer/grav as a skill, why I think it's poorly implemented and how it could be changed for the better.

 

 

First things first, I play on the Jedi Covenant Server and have a 50 Guardian (Di'Nariss) a 41 Scoundrel (Cyr'rina) and a 22 Commando (Dacslogan) I played a Sentinel and Scoundrel back during the beta weekends and have spent a fair amount of time pvping in both the pre 1.1 brackets (I hit 50 the week of the bracket change so I did one full round of Wz and Ilum weeklies before they changed) and post 1.1 brackets.

 

My commando although low level I made to see how Gunnery weighed up for myself rather than jump to rabid conclusions of the ability and my initial thoughts on it were "This ability has a lot of utility to it" straight off the bat.

 

Not only does it shread armor, it increases the damage from my High impact bolt and is pretty easy to spam while maintaining a reasonable level of ammo and has what I would call a moderate threshold of dps.

 

Then we look into the improvements, cost reduction, mitigation increase, stack speed increase (armor shread) and a 31 talent ability that increases in damage per stack of Grav debuffs.

 

Immediately you can see that the Gunnery tree is probably a little too designed around the use of a singular ability, the improvements are wide ranging and it's no suprise that you see it spammed when it has so much tied to it.

 

Now the question is, how can we rectify this?

 

 

Several ways, some won't be liked, others a bit more workable but would probably take a little longer to implement:

 

1. Spread out the bonuses across other skills so the tree is not entirely focused on the spam of one skill to improve other skills.

 

2. Decrease the stacks of grav debuff thus in turn decreasing the stacks required for demolition round to trigger at full damage.

 

3. Remove the mitigation buff from spamming Grav entirely and make it an additional to full auto instead but at a lesser amount (the mitigation buff is currently putting Commandos on par with Juggers/Guardians for mitigation which is entirely skewed)

 

4. Reduce the damage output on Grav/Tracer by 20-25% but in turn increase the damage of Full Auto and Charged bolts by that same amount, decreasing the emphasis on constantly using Grav and broadening the range of damage skills you would use.

 

5. Remove the autoface from Grav/Tracer and give them a 5m melee death zone (if someone you are targetting is within 5m grav/tracer is greyed out)

 

6. Increase the ammo requirement by a ramping amount per Grav/Tracer stack, starts low builds up to an unmaintainable amount should you spam it (debuff to manage this)

 

These are just a few ways it could be sorted out, I'm sure there are many more.

[Treplos]

Well, we were kind of snickering at those that were comming here claiming 3k hits from TM, now we are flat out laughing I challenge anyone to get video (has to be video as we dont have combat logs to see otherwise) proof of a Tracer missile hitting someone of the same level with good enough gear to have 16-18k HP for 4k or more.

 

Truth is i rarely see Heetseeker Missile hit for more than 4k and thats with 81% surge:rolleyes:

 

 

Oh you mean a screenshot is not good enough now. I see lol

[Treplos]

Not really, because I was against that nerf as well.

 

 

 

I honestly find that hard to believe. I also run with the Biochem buff 24/7, and I'm in full champ. There had to have been other contributing factors, like already having reduced armor from another source, or he was under the effect of the Mara buff or something like that.

 

I suppose it could have been someone who had ripped out crit/surge mods from a bunch of other high end gear, but I've already stated that I feel that that's really gaming the system, and is a flaw in the gear design of the game.

 

Edit: Actually not just the gear design, but stat design in general. For someone like an Arsenal Merc, damage stats like accuracy, alacrity and power just aren't nearly useful as crit/surge is. Accuracy is all but worthless due to Tech attacks having a 100% chance to hit, even though it does help with Railshot and Unload. Alacrity is also not all that great because we have a 1.5s GCD anyway, and while faster casts can allow you to cast and move quicker, it's not going to help you nearly as much as crit/surge. Power is a useful stat, but in the amounts that you are given on gear pieces when compared to crit/surge, you'll often be better off going with crit/surge.

 

Look at that picture mate. I was low on HP when he 1 shotted me, and proceeded to spam it on others. Some people refuse to believe because they do not want to hear the truth, or simply because they do not have the gear to make it happen. But it is there, and Ive asked BM Mercs and they confirmed it, as I mentioned in my post.

 

I really do not want any class to be nerfed, to be hoenst with you, even after my class got nerfed. Not only because I have alts of all classes that I can roll to 50, if I wanted, but because I still believe that balance should be done after the million bugs are fixed, not before. Even tho it is too late for my Operative,

 

I am mainly angry at BW for their double standards, hypocrisy and narrow-mindedness.

 

PS: I agree with the gear design/stats. It is the same problem for all classes btw. Some people use the gear as is; the secret though is in min/maxing with other mods with crit/surge.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Treplos

[ugig]

I got 500 expertise too in mostly Champ gear and got hit for more than 4k. I even posted a photo of it. I can post my stats if you do not believe me. But you will probably not believe me anyway, because you already decided not to. With full house of cons/buffs TM can hit for over 5k with good gear.

 

My issue is not with BH though, my issue is with the Devs and the hypocrisy and double standards with which they approach class balance.

 

I would like to see this photo, though you still cant prove it wasnt HSM that hit you for that amount since its instant so no cast bar proving that is what was cast, and with the travel time delays its even tougher to prove.

 

I have seen so called photo proof of over powered TM hits before, it showed someone laying dead, with the red dmg text showing 4012 over them and they had a BH on target and that BH's cast bar showed he was finishing casting Tracer Missile. Problem here is, * you have no proof of what he hit you with before he started casting the TM that your photo shows. * with the travel time delay of Tracer by the time it hits you his cast bar will no longer show what he was doing but what he is doing * you have no proof that the BH that is on your target window was even hitting you.

 

More likely you had a 5 stack of heat sig on you, he casted tracer, then while tracer was in the air hit insta HSM causing HSM to hit just a fraction of a second after tracer, a combat log (if BW ever gets off their duffs and puts one in) would show that the big hit was HSM

[Treplos]

I would like to see this photo, though you still cant prove it wasnt HSM that hit you for that amount since its instant so no cast bar proving that is what was cast, and with the travel time delays its even tougher to prove.

 

I have seen so called photo proof of over powered TM hits before, it showed someone laying dead, with the red dmg text showing 4012 over them and they had a BH on target and that BH's cast bar showed he was finishing casting Tracer Missile. Problem here is, * you have no proof of what he hit you with before he started casting the TM that your photo shows. * with the travel time delay of Tracer by the time it hits you his cast bar will no longer show what he was doing but what he is doing * you have no proof that the BH that is on your target window was even hitting you.

 

More likely you had a 5 stack of heat sig on you, he casted tracer, then while tracer was in the air hit insta HSM causing HSM to hit just a fraction of a second after tracer, a combat log (if BW ever gets off their duffs and puts one in) would show that the big hit was HSM

 

 

Did you bother to look at the album. It's toward the end, all I can say is that it was a TM because he was looking at me while channeling it.

 

And no, no one can prove anything to anyone via any means, because a person who does not wish to believe will always find fault. I really do not care either way though (no offense). I am simply telling you what I have experienced: that it is possible, and I've confirmed it with more than one Champ/BM Mercs on our server, as you can read in my post.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Treplos

[Machazareel]

Look at that picture mate. I was low on HP when he 1 shotted me, and proceeded to spam it on others. Some people refuse to believe because they do not want to hear the truth, or simply because they do not have the gear to make it happen. But it is there, and Ive asked BM Mercs and they confirmed it, as I mentioned in my post.

 

I really do not want any class to be nerfed, to be hoenst with you, even after my class got nerfed. Not only because I have alts of all classes that I can roll to 50, if I anted, but because I still believe that balance should be done after the million bugs are fixed, not before. Even tho it is too late for my Operative,

 

I am mainly angry at BW for their double standards, hypocrisy and narrow-mindedness.

 

I can totally get on board with that tbh. Operatives should not have been hit nearly as hard as they were. I won't state solidly whether or not they were in need of some adjustment, because I don't play one yet, but the extent to which they were hit was way overboard, and it paints a pretty worrying picture for the future of the class adjustments in this game.

 

I found Ops to be a threat before the nerf, but they were still a manageable threat. The only times I was steamrolled by one was when I had all my CDs on cooldown, and the Op popped all his CDs to kill me. In that situation, it's not hard to understand that I got killed, because my CDs were spent, and his weren't. When my CDs were up, I never had to worry too much about them, at least not more than other classes. My great fear was and still is Mara/Sents who know how to play and exceptional Assassins/Shadows.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Machazareel

[ugig]

Did you bother to look at the album. It's toward the end, all I can say is that it was a TM because he was looking at me while channeling it.

 

And no, no one can prove anything to anyone via any means, because a person who does not wish to believe will always find fault. I really do not care either way though (no offense). I am simply telling you what I have experienced: that it is possible, and I've confirmed it with more than one Champ/BM Mercs on our server, as you can read in my post.

 

I have looked at your photo, and as I stated it isnt proof of anything, for all we know it wasnt even the BH that hit you for 4k. You say he was looking at you while casting it, not having a target of target indicator in the game you cant be sure he was targeting you. And as i have stated before, i time it so my HSM arrives almost at the same time as a TM and Rail Shot and since the last two are instant you will never know I sent them.

 

As a visual reference, here is a standard rotation from the perspective of the one recieving the dmg.

 

(TM 1500)-------(TM 2000)-------(TM 1900)-------(TM 2500)-------(TM 2600)-(HSM 3500)--(Railshot 2500)-(Unload

The last three hits can be virtually in the same second, this is due to tracer missile having a ballistic arc flight path, while HSM is a straight shot flight path and rail shot having a much much faster travel time than either.

[_Scattered_]

This should be about the single target free casting damage, whether its tracer missile or some other ability the damage can be ridiculous unless controlled.

 

The spec is underpowered in in 1v1 and maybe 2v2, balanced in 3v3. The problem is larger engagements where this damage can't be controlled. While these larger fights may favour range in general the focused dps potential is where this spec stands out.

 

A lot of frustration about tracer missile comes from when you're in a cluster**** fight and some merc 30 yards away decides to blow you up and there is little you can do.

Edited February 2, 2012 by _Scattered_

[ugig]

This should be about the single target free casting damage, whether its tracer missile or some other ability the damage can be ridiculous unless controlled.

 

The spec is underpowered in in 1v1 and maybe 2v2, balanced in 3v3. The problem is larger engagements where this damage can't be controlled. While these larger fights may favour range in general the focused dps potential is where this spec stands out.

 

A lot of frustration about tracer missile comes from when you're in a cluster**** fight and some merc 30 yards away decides to blow you up and there is little you can do.

 

^^^

Truth, when you dig down into the complaints it usually boils down to people focused on something else getting blasted by a merc left to free cast at them without interuption.

[SoMaKuTala]

Everytime I see him hit anywhere near 4k, he has a andrenal, stim and relic going and ALL 4 Class buffs. On top of that they have 13900ish hp meaning they have little to no PVP gear.

[Maruchani]

Any news on the nerf yet? I doubt it's not coming

[Rheeling]

Server: Sword of Ajunta Pall

Characters: 50 Vanguard/42 Sage

Valor Ranks: 55 (Vanguard)/42 (Sage)

 

Honestly, I think Tracer Missile is fine. And I think a hefty majority of people who don't get tunnel vision in warzones will agree. Tracer Missile is extremely easy to identify, even if you don't have the person targeted. If I see a BH lean forward and start a cast, I know what he's doing.

 

I can immediately switch to him and interrupt the 2nd attempt at casting it. Extremely easy to LoS, plenty of time to interrupt it. Granted, I haven't played classes that have extremely limited control. As I'm sure many of you have noticed by now, I play the 2 classes with the most control in the game, hehe

[salamanderx]

Most people just dont deal with it properly. I see a guy tracer missle spamming and everyone just ignoring him and it makes me wonder what kind of people I am playing with and if they really understand the game.

 

My favorite target is a tracer spammer whos targetting someone else, he's a free lunch. He wont run, his heat is high so he cant deal with you, and he's probably not thinking very dynamically so hes not ready for your interference. And mercs aside from heavy armor have very few other mitigating factors, sorcs are tougher to take down. And your team mate will thank you.

 

On the other hand if someone is tracer spamming me... get out of range or around a corner, usually easy since they like to stay at the edge of range themselves. Why do some people feel they should charge the merc when they've got a stream of missiles coming there way and they are < half health already?? Its a fight you'll lose.

 

Understanding the game will make this problem go away np.

Edited February 2, 2012 by salamanderx

[Eszi]

Server: Sword of Ajunta Pall

Character: 50 senti

Valor Rank: 48

 

I say - leave it as it is. Easily interrptable, and makes the caster immobile. Using the right skills, makes for a free kill.

[Swarna]

Server: Jung Ma

Marauder Level: 50

PvP Level: 64

 

Arsenal mercenaries in general are easy to shut down. Pyrotech mercenaries seem more effective in my opinion.

 

Arsenal doesn't need any nerfs but perhaps it could do with changes because they look super lame bending over and having to spam TM all the time. lol

[Treplos]

I have looked at your photo, and as I stated it isnt proof of anything, for all we know it wasnt even the BH that hit you for 4k. You say he was looking at you while casting it, not having a target of target indicator in the game you cant be sure he was targeting you. And as i have stated before, i time it so my HSM arrives almost at the same time as a TM and Rail Shot and since the last two are instant you will never know I sent them.

 

As a visual reference, here is a standard rotation from the perspective of the one recieving the dmg.

 

(TM 1500)-------(TM 2000)-------(TM 1900)-------(TM 2500)-------(TM 2600)-(HSM 3500)--(Railshot 2500)-(Unload

The last three hits can be virtually in the same second, this is due to tracer missile having a ballistic arc flight path, while HSM is a straight shot flight path and rail shot having a much much faster travel time than either.

 

 

It was a Tracer Missile. I actually know the guy (we premaded with him through another friend a few times even) and I asked him for you. Problem solved? Also, this is not the first time TM hit me for that amount of damage.

 

I also asked several other (Champ/BM) Mercs who confirmed that TM can hit for 4k (and even 5k with full house buffs). Is that really so hard to believe?

Edited February 2, 2012 by Treplos

[Frapjacks]

Everyone knows tracers need to be dialed back. Anyone who says otherwise simply doesn't want to lose an advantage.

 

There should never be a single skill that you can spam and win with.

 

I am tired of these threads but if me and others don't chime in and repeat ourselves the threads will be driven by people that need more time in PvP and with their class. I am a lvl 50 Merc with 40 percent raw crit chance before adrenals. I am also in full Illum/Belsavis Daily EPIC lvl 50/51 mods/enchancement/armors. Here are some points based on my experiences as a TM tree Merc.

 

- BHs stand there, spam TM & automatically win. This is a serious overstatement

- Spamming TM into someone that is being healed, as this is a team play game, the healer will easily do more healing then I will do damage at the steady sustained rate TM supplies

- If I spam my tracer missle at the healer he is going to interrupt or stun me in some fashion then laugh at me as he moves along to kill someone inbetween heals.

- Do we need to talk about spamming TM into enemy tanks? They will eat the BHs face inbetween stunlocks.

- TM Mercs are a pure DPS class. I dont know what you were promised along with a rose garden but not every class is going to stand there toe to toe with us and not die. Many of the classes do however. But some dont and rightly so. If your playing a support class then go support something.

- Stealth classes. When have they ever supposed to have been both invisible and able to dominate in a straight up toe to toe situation. They are about harrassment and surprise openers, and well....stealth. I dont know what they did to your damage so I wont judge there. But I can tell you to restealth and go harrass/surprise. You are also not a class that is going to stand there staring down the barrel of a gun outdps'ing the gun. I promise we will not spam TM at you while your invisible. This is always the way of stealthies throughout MMO histtory. You pop unstealth , do your thing, then get the heck out.

- TM is interruptable

- TM is silencable.

- Mercs are stunnable.

- Should you somehow have gone through the class creation process without any of the above options assigned to your class then move away at a comfortable jog pace. Congratulations you have just completely and 100% effectively shut down TM in full.

[Frapjacks]

This should be about the single target free casting damage, whether its tracer missile or some other ability the damage can be ridiculous unless controlled.

 

The spec is underpowered in in 1v1 and maybe 2v2, balanced in 3v3. The problem is larger engagements where this damage can't be controlled. While these larger fights may favour range in general the focused dps potential is where this spec stands out.

 

A lot of frustration about tracer missile comes from when you're in a cluster**** fight and some merc 30 yards away decides to blow you up and there is little you can do.

 

 

Your attention is elsewhere and someone kills you. How will this be different if the guy stands 3 feet away and hits you with lightning, or straight up force leaps to you and roflstomps your face in.

[JediMasterShake]

Server: Jung Ma

Bounty Hunter Level: 50

PvP Level: 56

 

 

Here's the deal with Tracer Missle. This is the only post you ever need to read on the subject ever again.

 

Say that Bounty Hunters can output X damage using their best rotation (while standing still). TM spam can do about .9*X (in other words: they can do 90% of their max damage simply by spamming TM). However, if they do simply spam it, they will not only do less damage (90%) but they will also be less efficient in terms of heat, compared to their ideal max dps rotation.

 

Now answer me this... is that overpowered? Of course not. They are playing sub-optimally . So why the uproar? Because if you saw any class running around that can still be relatively effect while only using one button, you'd be annoyed too! It's simply dumb. It shouldn't be quite as powerful as it is - it's bad, or at the very worst, uninteresting game design.

 

 

But you need to understand - OVERPOWERED is not the right word to use. It is, 100%, most assuredly, NOT overpowered to spam tracer missle. You will do less dps than if you were using your other abilities, and you will raise your heat faster.

 

Does that mean it needs to be changed? Sure, it could be changed. But it certainly shouldn't be a priority.

Edited February 2, 2012 by JediMasterShake

[DarthRaistlin]

Everyone knows tracers need to be dialed back. Anyone who says otherwise simply doesn't want to lose an advantage.

 

There should never be a single skill that you can spam and win with.

 

I have a valor 55 assassin and a valor 38 merc. dont stand there when you getting shot or try to finish your kill. on my sin non bodyguard mercs are easy kills.