Tanks: That which will kill SWTOR PVP.

[Dovahbrah]

This thread is lulzy. Of all things, who would have known that tanks would be the ultimate PvP killer?

[Xilrasis]

The funny thing, is pretty much everyone that actually has gear (such as what I assume is the poster a few posts up) knows that its true.

 

Does anyone remember guarded warrior priests + aoe detaunt in Warhammer?

Edited January 31, 2012 by Xilrasis

[SirMoobs]

So now Tanks are going to kill TOR? What was it first? I thought it was lack of UI customization, OPS/Smugglers, unbalanced Republic/Imperial pop, PvP at 50 being dead, blah blah blah. This isn't going to kill TOR. You people are overly dramatic and quite frankly pathetic with your doomsday predictions. Tanks being OP in PvP? What's next? Healers being nerfed because they do too much damage? Do me a favor and unsub. This game doesn't need MORE whiners.

[LordSemaj]

We're already seeing scenarios like this on our server. I regularly run with premades cooping with voice chat and we have stomped premade after premade. However, there's one premade on the server that rolls with 3 healers and 1 tank.... the result is that even pugging, it usually winds up with 3-4 healers, 1-2 tanks and the rest dps.

 

Our team is more than sufficient to stop them in their tracks, but as the OP suggests, the game goes nowhere fast. All attempts to focus fire are thwarted by voice callouts, CC immunity runs rampant with the number of times people must be stopped from helping each other, and the end result is that basically a few people occasionally die because they did something stupid.

 

In Voidstar, this has resulted in either constant stalemates or sneaky stealthers getting a win. In Huttball, this has resulted in whichever team gets the ball turtling in the mid and just holding it till time runs out (the Empire has tried leaving mid, but we destroy them by knockback separation if they ever get near a ramp). In Civil War, whichever side wins mid wins the game, though it's occasionally possible to trick them into defending or overextending the wrong point.

 

This is a sort of natural state to RPG PVP, but it goes back to early Guild Wars style combat where two professional grade teams can stand there firing at each other for forty minutes and neither side lose any players. This is as opposed to a League of Legends competition where regardless of how good your team is, people will die... often...

 

The issue is of course the 8-man limit and the survivalist nature of the game. Stacking survival is currently (especially due to double dipping benefits from Expertise) better than stacking damage. This would be a non-factor in larger warzones where a team stacked with DPS can easily outdo anything a team with several healers putting out.

 

 

With DPS gaining a slight bonus from Expertise that gets mitigated by defenses, while healing gets a flat 30% reduction with no other obstacle, the extra defense on Expertise turns even DPS into tanks. All players attempting to DPS down a team of tanks while other tanks are guarding them and using tank taunts and tank healers are throwing out heals at them. We're getting into what Rift had for a while with the unkillable teams problem until they nerfed the effectiveness of their version of Expertise (which despite being higher than SWTOR's doesn't matter as much as Damage scales up much faster in Rift).

 

I'd agree that unless DPS is made to scale faster than it currently is, players are gaining far too much defense and healing strength for the game's good. Most players will never experience this problem as it's rare to see healers in PUGs much less cooperation.

 

TL;DR version: Damage is scaling too slowly, Healing and Durability are scaling exponentially.

Edited January 31, 2012 by LordSemaj

[Dovahbrah]

The funny thing, is pretty much everyone that actually has gear (such as what I assume is the poster a few posts up) knows that its true.

 

Does anyone remember guarded warrior priests + aoe detaunt in Warhammer?

 

I've been rank 50+ since the last week of December, and full Champion gear for just as long. I don't agree with you, so is that evidence that you're wrong?

 

If your team can't focus down a guarded healer, then you're bad, it's that simple. 4 DPS + stuns + interrupts will kill any healer fast, guarded or unguarded.

[Xilrasis]

I've been rank 50+ since the last week of December, and full Champion gear for just as long. I don't agree with you, so is that evidence that you're wrong?

 

If your team can't focus down a guarded healer, then you're bad, it's that simple. 4 DPS + stuns + interrupts will kill any healer fast, guarded or unguarded.

 

Sure. I can take my 4 premade DPS team (lol, who actually queues with 4 DPS, first of all?).

 

We can coordinate perfectly. Sentinel pops inspiration, everyone pops adrenals.

 

{ Operative healer vanishes.

 

Sorc healer pops knockback, then his teammate pops aoe blind (which, the combination of the two, still wont be enough to fill your team's resolve bars).

 

Merc healer pops knockback, or interrupt immunity, or shieldwall }

 

Tank then AoE taunts your DPS, and single target taunts the highest one (maybe both tanks if theres two).

 

Their other DPS then aoe CC's your 4 DPS.

 

Meanwhile, your 4 DPS (with no healer, or no tank) are now dropping 1 by 1 from their teams damage as your entire wad has been spent on (unsuccessfully) killing one healer.

 

I love mythical scenarios, because it works both ways. And mine actually makes sense.

 

Disclaimer: I have heard a rumor that you can actually target healers in this game, and that tab target OCCASIONALLY works, and click targetting is reliable 1/10 clicks. Otherwise, back to the drawing board on successfully targetting the correct person much less actually killing them.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Xilrasis

[Amp_]

You're just playing people that are good. It's like saying skill is bad for pvp.

[LordSemaj]

I've been rank 50+ since the last week of December, and full Champion gear for just as long. I don't agree with you, so is that evidence that you're wrong?

 

If your team can't focus down a guarded healer, then you're bad, it's that simple. 4 DPS + stuns + interrupts will kill any healer fast, guarded or unguarded.

 

Until the other THREE healers spam the guy with heals while two tanks rotate taunts on your team with guard up on the healer, nullifying your damage entirely while their 2 dps sentinels kill your one or two healers.

 

Two Sents ganging up one Healer while another Healer tries to keep him up...

 

VS

 

Four healers (with guard) vs Four DPS, all with high expertise... go!

 

Interruptable? YES!

Killable? NO!

 

Some strats are more effective than others. In SWTOR, stack defense.

[Dovahbrah]

{ Operative healer vanishes.

 

 

Thanks for proving my point that you can successfully negate at least one of their healers.

 

I never said a premade made up with 4 DPS. I said 4 DPS.

[KiranK]

No, tanks are allowed to have their spot in PvP, just like you do. If that hurts your feelings I'm sorry. You'll just have to recruit your own tanks.

[Xilrasis]

Thanks for proving my point that you can successfully negate at least one of their healers.

 

I never said a premade made up with 4 DPS. I said 4 DPS.

 

Healer is negated for all of 10 seconds while you try to select another target while being chain cc'd.

 

I like how you picked the ONE example out of there and ignored the rest and still continue to prove the point that you play against bads.

[Xilrasis]

You're just playing people that are good. It's like saying skill is bad for pvp.

 

You miss the point entirely. Please go back and re-read. If the point still hasn't come to mind, re-read it again.

 

No, tanks are allowed to have their spot in PvP, just like you do. If that hurts your feelings I'm sorry. You'll just have to recruit your own tanks.

 

Sigh.

 

Tanks WILL have their spot in PVP, it just won't be making their team unkillable.

 

For christs sake, stop acting like i'm saying to remove tanks from the game. Guard and perhaps taunt mechanics simply need a review (and perhaps the durability of certain healer class(es) /cough)

Edited January 31, 2012 by Xilrasis

[Dovahbrah]

Healer is negated for all of 10 seconds while you try to select another target while being chain cc'd.

 

I like how you picked the ONE example out of there and ignored the rest and still continue to prove the point that you play against bads.

 

I'm not ignoring it, I just don't see the point in postulating a near-perfect scenario that has basically no plausibility in actual gameplay.

[Sirolos]

Psshhh Dont u guyz know that the counter to all is a team of Sorcs and Commando's.....

 

All you need is for the sorcs to guard each other..instant win..cause sorcs have all the utility and stuff

[RoadtoArkham]

Just send in an Operative. I hear they can kill tanks in 3 seconds while getting crit for 15k.

 

/sarcasm

 

I understand your frustrations but I don't think anyone really wants to ride the nerf roller-coaster.

[Griminal]

Here we have a classic example of "I'm right and everybody else is wrong"

[Ishkur]

You mean typical WZ players: 3-4 sorcs, 3-4 mercs 0-1 something different

[Geehew]

So now Tanks are going to kill TOR? What was it first? I thought it was lack of UI customization, OPS/Smugglers, unbalanced Republic/Imperial pop, PvP at 50 being dead, blah blah blah. This isn't going to kill TOR. You people are overly dramatic and quite frankly pathetic with your doomsday predictions. Tanks being OP in PvP? What's next? Healers being nerfed because they do too much damage? Do me a favor and unsub. This game doesn't need MORE whiners.

 

What he said.

[Xilrasis]

Here we have a classic example of "I'm right and everybody else is wrong"

 

Sadly, its true. The vast majority of people who post on this forum havn't made it past level 40, or are just now hitting 50 and are still in their quest gear with green mods and really don't have a clue.

 

Then you have a few people who play on servers that have zero competitive premade teams that run with competent tank/healer pairs.

 

None of these people really understand the problem, and are probably best served removing themselves from the debate.

 

Others (including tanks and healers that run these precise hypothetical scenarios day in and day out) understand the problem and have even admitted it.

 

Perhaps its not guard thats the problem. Perhaps its rampant AoE CC. Either way, there is a problem, and it will need to be fixed before it spirals out of control.

 

You mean typical WZ players: 3-4 sorcs, 3-4 mercs 0-1 something different

 

Again, i'm talking about actual premade scenarios. The group I describe would rip that group a new one several times over.

[Kalliadies]

If its that much of an issue (which I don’t believe it is. I applaud the way tanks are implemented in this game), instead of nerfs, I would suggest additions.

 

Increase the effectiveness of healing inhibitors. Marauders get 20% for a limited time. I would suggest this becomes a debuff for 6 seconds that continues to stack and refresh each time the target takes damage. This will allow the DPS to outpace focus healing “eventually” (even from 3 healers on one target) when the stack is high enough.

 

Perhaps stunning a tank breaks the guard effect for the duration of the CC.

 

Positive action trumps negative

[Xilrasis]

If its that much of an issue (which I don’t believe it is. I applaud the way tanks are implemented in this game), instead of nerfs, I would suggest additions.

 

Increase the effectiveness of healing inhibitors. Marauders get 20% for a limited time. I would suggest this becomes a debuff for 6 seconds that continues to stack and refresh each time the target takes damage. This will allow the DPS to outpace focus healing “eventually” (even from 3 healers on one target) when the stack is high enough.

 

Perhaps stunning a tank breaks the guard effect for the duration of the CC.

 

Positive action trumps negative

 

I believe personally that a stacking/refreshing healing debuff would be excessive. Healing debuffs are really never any fun because then they become 100% required for any group. At the moment, this would give Marauders and Sentinels a spot in every group, bar none.

 

The idea that stuns/cc would remove guard from the target is perhaps one of the better ones i've seen suggested, or even a reduction in the range guard is effective for. As it stands, separating them is terribly difficult and even if you do manage to, at least 2/3 of the tanks are mobile enough to charge right back in, with the third being relatively capable of speeding his way back.

 

Personally, i'd just drop Guard to a 30% reduction, provide at least one more class with a 20% healing debuff, and reduce the amount of AoE CC in the game (and I also believe resolve values for KB's, AoE CC should be tweaked a bit. They should be something you use smartly not that can be driven on back to back to back to back just because you can).

 

Those changes would go a long way to helping the situation without making tanks utterly useless.

[CrixFexive]

Oh look out guys Bioware put a complexity into pvp! I'm sorry, but i feel like you have played to much wow to accept other game designers views. In this game tanks have a roll, healers have a roll and dps have a roll (ranged and mele). If you think one roll is better than the other, play it. You will quickly find out, much like I did after years of playing WAR and WoW, that complaining about the class besides you own is really easy and since I was to lazy to even see what you play or read any post except half the first one you put I am just assuming that you don't play a tank. So play whatever class you are as best you can and realize that no game where there is a complexity in pvp besides targeting healers is going to be perfectly balanced. If you don't like it just re-roll. <3 BTW i play a sentinel and I don;t see anything wrong with the random 20k hp tanks i have to fight.

[Vesperr]

Perfect tanks, perfect healers, perfect interrupts and perfect aoe and dots = theorycraft madness. Anyway pyrotechs chew through tanks and if anything focus the healer, the extra hp (aka tank) will die anyway (aoe and dots help here). Edited January 31, 2012 by Vesperr

[Xilrasis]

Oh look out guys Bioware put a complexity into pvp! I'm sorry, but i feel like you have played to much wow to accept other game designers views. In this game tanks have a roll, healers have a roll and dps have a roll (ranged and mele). If you think one roll is better than the other, play it. You will quickly find out, much like I did after years of playing WAR and WoW, that complaining about the class besides you own is really easy and since I was to lazy to even see what you play or read any post except half the first one you put I am just assuming that you don't play a tank. So play whatever class you are as best you can and realize that no game where there is a complexity in pvp besides targeting healers is going to be perfectly balanced. If you don't like it just re-roll. <3 BTW i play a sentinel and I don;t see anything wrong with the random 20k hp tanks i have to fight.

 

Sigh.

 

Yet another player who solo queues for warzones and encounters other people who solo queue for warzones and believes its legitimate PVP.

 

For the record, I have played nearly every MMO under the sun and only rarely have I encountered a problem that promises to be this large in any other. World of Warcraft isn't even where the largest portion of my time has been spent. This is akin to how ridiculous healer channelers or dwarf priests were in early shadowbane, all while everyone screamed nerf confessors and were too blind to see the real problems.

 

AoE Detaunt + Guard on a warrior priest in Warhammer (though tanks were not NEARLY as beefy in Warhammer). Fortunately for them, the Bright Wizard/Sorc nerf cries were harder because of the nature of fortresses and that they were the "visible" problem.

 

As mentioned before, unkillable groups in GW, Rift.

 

Guard is not a new concept, and nearly every game that has implemented it has screwed it up initially and nerfed it at some point. SWTOR will be no exception, I assure you.

[Pandanks]

The amount of complete ignorance in this thread is beyond amusing, I tip my hat to you all for that one.

 

The fact of that matter, as stated multiple times, is that a GOOD well-geared tank who is somewhat intelligent, and understands the use of his abilities, will consistently change how a battleground progresses. Specifically when paired with a healer of equal gear and intelligence. You can sit in your chair and scream with all the angst that your tiny manhands can type about how wrong this is, but you are wrong. You haven't been in this scenario or you and your friend are too terrible to know how to play the game, but the fact remains that at a competitive level it complete ruins the balance of the game, and instead creates a stalement of entirely un-fun proportions.

 

I have no problem spouting how great my Scoundrel is geared and that, even with my Battlemaster premade, it is impossible to kill a guarded healer/tank combo of equal gear. It creates said stalemate and we all sit around stacking the damage and healing meters with no one going anywhere. However, the real issue, as stated wonderfully by Seraj, is the fact that damage is scaling worse than durability. Expertise is such a flawed stat, yet it will never get changed.

 

To be honest, I would just love to see some sort of healing debuff implemented. The fact that is doesn't exist, outside of the Marauder/Sent 20%, is absolutely ridiculous. It truly makes me wonder if the PvP Devs even know what they are doing, but that is a thought for another day.

 

tl;dr - Tank/Healer combo is rock, everyone else is scissors, healing debuff that doesnt exist is paper.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Pandanks