Dorkfrey Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 I love the little rah rah pep talk premade players try to give pugs when I'm only in the match I'm in right now against this premade because a worse premade on our side left before the game even started. Hypocritical farming premade players have no right to give anyone advice. I also love the "rah rah I'ma derper" speech those pugless (seriously, there not even good enough to be qualified as a "pick up group") wonders give when we go - hey, let's take 3 left, 5 right, nice and easy win, and one of us will go left to help hold once we've secured right - when they go: "NO! ME DERP MID!". We're not talking of peptalks. Just basic communication. Glad to see you're in the game though. /thumbs up! (sarcasm). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbeaver Posted January 29, 2012 Author Share Posted January 29, 2012 I don't believe it is. Balance is of course of some concern, which is why brackets were implemented once there were enough level 50s on many servers to make them viable. But it's absurd to say that balance should be of overriding concern over all other considerations, for example queue times - for everybody, since sometimes that premade on the other side is needed to make up the numbers to make your queue time less than unbearably long. Yes, when I queue solo, I may get rolled by an imperial premade. Or I may run into the same group of PvPers I've often played with before and have a greater chance of victory. Or we may overcome the odds and smack that premade around because they are used to facerolling over weak opposition. There are lots of factors that may improve one side's chances over another in a WZ. Not just gear and valor (which aren't necessarily connected - you can have a valor rank 20 in full champion gear based on the RNG of champion bags) but group composition, consumables, skill, communication, and so on. And they can matter more than valor, since some people took advantage of Ilum to get to Battlemaster but are actually quite fail as players. There's no way to actually balance those variables. Ultimately, success in WZs depends as much on the coordination and skill of players as the gear they're wearing (something that on my server we have had to learn because the imperials have had a decided gear/valor advantage since release, which is only beginning to turn around). Would you really want Bioware to try to balance WZs around the skill and coordination of the players queued, were that even remotely feasible? As others have pointed out, a "premade" can be anything - a group of random undergeared folks who happen to know each other and want to queue for fun, or that group of epeen stroking vent-chatting battlemasters you're terrified of. So we're left with other, tangible variables you could actually potentially "balance" WZs around - gear (dubious at best, since this would involve introducing total gear rating metrics) and/or valor (which again, doesn't tell us much useful about the player). This would lead to longer queue times for everyone (for mathematically obvious reasons) with no assured "balance" gain (since skill, coordination, etc. will always be "unbalanced"). What have you really gained? I can assure you 3/25 tallies will continue to abound and people will continue to find things to complain about when they inevitably get rolled. I believe there is ways to balance. Sure, Valor/Gear does not measure effectiveness. Effectiveness measures effectiveness. WLR, KDR, etc. These are all easily measureable metrics. Additionally, they could look at class composition. There's probably LOADS of other ways to measure effectiveness that I'm not even thinking of. Point is, this is a next gen game, with a (worse than) last gen matching system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minervasunrider Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 (edited) I believe there is ways to balance. Sure, Valor/Gear does not measure effectiveness. Effectiveness measures effectiveness. WLR, KDR, etc. These are all easily measureable metrics. Additionally, they could look at class composition. There's probably LOADS of other ways to measure effectiveness that I'm not even thinking of. Point is, this is a next gen game, with a (worse than) last gen matching system. I want to play against players who have better records than me. I learn more about my own class and theirs that way. I want to play against players who have worse records than me. I can get my dailies/weeklies finished faster that way. I want to play against players who have no records. I like meeting new opponents. I don't care to be ranked or have my wins/kills recorded. I don't mind if they are either, but I don't want to be placed in a WZ based on that record. Mostly, I want short queue times so I can play more. There are other considerations than assuring perfectly even stalemates so that whoever by luck of random draw defends first in Voidstar / gets to their turret faster on Alderaan / gets to the Huttball first wins. Edited January 29, 2012 by minervasunrider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuari Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 (edited) I want to play against players who have better records than me. I learn more about my own class and theirs that way. I want to play against players who have worse records than me. I can get my dailies/weeklies finished faster that way. I want to play against players who have no records. I like meeting new opponents. I don't care to be ranked or have my wins/kills recorded. I don't mind if they are either, but I don't want to be placed in a WZ based on that record. Mostly, I want short queue times so I can play more. There are other considerations than assuring perfectly even stalemates so that whoever by luck of random draw defends first in Voidstar / gets to their turret faster on Alderaan / gets to the Huttball first wins. Couldn't have said it better... and its a big reason I say at best, bolster for a seriously undergeared team. Hell, for a system like some people want to work, there would have to be some serious cross-server queuing. Frankly while I don't mind it too much, its very shaky ground. It without a doubt harms rivalries and community. Understandably though, some servers lack that as it is as people don't give a damn. Its tough if not impossible to make both sides happy, and its actually a more even spread then you might think. Edited January 29, 2012 by Kuari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbeaver Posted January 29, 2012 Author Share Posted January 29, 2012 I want to play against players who have better records than me. I learn more about my own class and theirs that way. I want to play against players who have worse records than me. I can get my dailies/weeklies finished faster that way. I want to play against players who have no records. I like meeting new opponents. I don't care to be ranked or have my wins/kills recorded. I don't mind if they are either, but I don't want to be placed in a WZ based on that record. Mostly, I want short queue times so I can play more. There are other considerations than assuring perfectly even stalemates so that whoever by luck of random draw defends first in Voidstar / gets to their turret faster on Alderaan / gets to the Huttball first wins. OK, at least you're not claiming it's impossible to balance games; you're just stating you don't want balanced games. Unfortunately, I expect you're in the minority on that one. Anyways, if people were super high rated (by w/e metric they would hypothetically use) and NOT grouped with a premade of similarly rated people, there would still be fast queues, and a wide range of players within any given game (e.g. 4 pro dudes + 12 noobs queued up? 2 pros + 6 noobs on each team). This is how it's been done for years. And it's quite easy. The problem you're suggesting is that if a full group of pro dudes queue up together, then they are stuck in a queue for a while. And this effects everyone but them how? Again, if they queue with a group that's difficult to match against, then naturally they will have to wait a while. I don't see the problem. If, like you, they just want fast games, then queue solo. Problem is, their real motive isn't as you claim; it's that they want to farm as effeciently as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuari Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Problem is, their real motive isn't as you claim; it's that they want to farm as effeciently as possible. Yeeeah, because that's the only possible reason why people like working in a team. Totally. Seriously, unless you're going to start doing some sociological research on the subject, stop that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jovanna Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Quit losing morale and freaking out. That does more damage to your ability to win then any gear could possibly do. +1 Attitude is so much of the battle in PvP. People want a stunning victory or nothing at all. It doesn't work like that. PvP isn't about just winning by a mile or getting gear. It's about the challenge and the rush of overcoming someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caultonpos Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 50s complaining about 50s boo hoo cant handle people your own level love it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minervasunrider Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 (edited) OK, at least you're not claiming it's impossible to balance games; you're just stating you don't want balanced games. Unfortunately, I expect you're in the minority on that one. No... let me explain more thoroughly then. You can have "balance" in outcomes, you can have "balance" in some set of starting conditions, and you can try to "balance" both. What I'm arguing is that it completely defeats the purpose of a game (to try to win, with the chance of losing as well) to "balance" outcomes. By definition, the goal of a game is not to have balanced outcomes (all those exciting 0-0 draws in Huttball notwithstanding). I assume nobody's goal is to have balanced outcomes - their goal is to win. What I'm arguing, in addition, is that it's impractical/unfeasible and problematic to try to "balance" starting conditions. You agreed that "balancing" over gear and valor is not the way to do it, so I won't explain why. The suggested metrics for "balancing" over skill, teamwork, and coordination are past records (win-loss, kill-death, etc.). This runs, however, into the above problem: you are really "balancing" over prior outcomes, which is to say you are trying to match players based on the likelihood that they will win over the average player. There is one situation in which "balancing" over outcomes is desirable: in a ranked PvP situation where the goal is to determine whose epeen is most deserving of strokage. In this case you want to match the "best" groups against one another to determine who, by the finest hair breadth, should receive the strokage. However, this is not why I want to PvP (I just kind of enjoy it in a vaguely casual way), and not, I suspect, the reason why most other players play. The other thing this discussion doesn't take into account is the interactive dynamics that come in teamwork and group composition. Put together the 8 best sentinels on a server against a well-rounded average team and the sentinels should get ripped. Put together the best 8 lone sharks against and average group of team players and the team players should pull it off. However, anything done to try to ensure that group composition is more than random will increase queue times for everyone, for obvious reasons. TL;DR: let's stop talking about the illusion of balance and just play the bloody game. Edited January 29, 2012 by minervasunrider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolxTheUnmaker Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 (edited) Is this a Massive Multi-player game or a Massive Single-player game? Why is it so hard to find friends? Hell I dont act like a dick and I am friendly, I cant keep people from wanting to friend me. (not just in TOR, but in all Multi-player games.) Why cant you? Edited January 29, 2012 by SolxTheUnmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbeaver Posted January 29, 2012 Author Share Posted January 29, 2012 No... let me explain more thoroughly then. You can have "balance" in outcomes, you can have "balance" in some set of starting conditions, and you can try to "balance" both. What I'm arguing is that it completely defeats the purpose of a game (to try to win, with the chance of losing as well) to "balance" outcomes. By definition, the goal of a game is not to have balanced outcomes (all those exciting 0-0 draws in Huttball notwithstanding). I assume nobody's goal is to have balanced outcomes - their goal is to win. What I'm arguing, in addition, is that it's impractical/unfeasible and problematic to try to "balance" starting conditions. You agreed that "balancing" over gear and valor is not the way to do it, so I won't explain why. The suggested metrics for "balancing" over skill, teamwork, and coordination are past records (win-loss, kill-death, etc.). This runs, however, into the above problem: you are really "balancing" over prior outcomes, which is to say you are trying to match players based on the likelihood that they will win over the average player. There is one situation in which "balancing" over outcomes is desirable: in a ranked PvP situation where the goal is to determine whose epeen is most deserving of strokage. In this case you want to match the "best" groups against one another to determine who, by the finest hair breadth, should receive the strokage. However, this is not why I want to PvP (I just kind of enjoy it in a vaguely casual way), and not, I suspect, the reason why most other players play. The other thing this discussion doesn't take into account is the interactive dynamics that come in teamwork and group composition. Put together the 8 best sentinels on a server against a well-rounded average team and the sentinels should get ripped. Put together the best 8 lone sharks against and average group of team players and the team players should pull it off. However, anything done to try to ensure that group composition is more than random will increase queue times for everyone, for obvious reasons. TL;DR: let's stop talking about the illusion of balance and just play the bloody game. Of course there's intangible factors that will continue to randomize outcomes, but there's also tangible factors. And it's TRIVIAL to quantify and sort groups by these factors. Not problematic in the slightest. And doing so would contribute to a more reasonable WLR for the average player, obviously. And no, using some matching logic would not mean longer queues for everyone. All it would mean is longer queues for corner case premades, which is appropriate. Look at the current reality; pugs getting shutout 90% of the time. You want see where that takes you 1 year from now left unaddressed? That means less people playing, and longer queues for all (your main concern). And by the way, let the people we pay to write the code worry about the complexity of implementing an appropriate solution. I'm not sure why you care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulstitchMMO Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 (edited) This is yet another thing that Bioware lied about. There is no matchmaking system beyond You got 8? We got 8? Let's fight. Edited January 29, 2012 by SoulstitchMMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OverpowerStorm Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 What I did was made a new.char got him to lvl 10 and started to pvp,, queues are hell of fast and everyone is on the same playing field... Am 16 now and getting 6 to 7 medals per game, *** cant even get 5 on my lvl 50. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbeaver Posted January 29, 2012 Author Share Posted January 29, 2012 Is this a Massive Multi-player game or a Massive Single-player game? Why is it so hard to find friends? Hell I dont act like a dick and I am friendly, I cant keep people from wanting to friend me. (not just in TOR, but in all Multi-player games.) Why cant you? You sure about that? Can some of this guy's friends come validate this claim, because he sounds like a dick to me. Anyways, what's having friends have to do with having a good premade? You saying I should buddy up to the top pvp'ers and hope for a coat-tail ride? Or do you suggest merely having friends queued up with me makes a good premade? I happen to be in a social guild of 10 or so RL friends and none of them are pvp-focused, so your logic fails. Again, all you're suggesting is that we should do all the legwork of the matching system ourselves, rather than petitioning for improvements (as we're encouraged to do!) Why? Furthermore, in the spirit of competition, I would take no pleasure in grouping up with other well geared pvp'ers in the hopes of exploiting a badly designed matching system for cheap wins, you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timadan Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 This is yet another thing that Bioware lied about. There is no matchmaking system beyond You got 8? We got 8? Let's fight. Truth except for the 8 part, I've been in plenty of 6 v 8. Hopefully at some point the matchmaking system will revolve around Valor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatanic Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 This is what WZs are all about now. Run a premade, that you hopefully have farmed battlemaster on now and roll whatever you meet. Its actually too easy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danuch Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I do premades (win/lose 50%) all the time I think thier good and I dont want full premades in the future. I dont want any "WoW premades" in SWTOR as someone stated they never lost against pugs that would kill the "casual-pvpers". I would consider full premades if it was possible to meet other full premades. Maybe seperate que? It would be very good for the PvP guilds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evuke Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) i hope it works out for you Edited January 31, 2012 by Evuke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maradigamer Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I also love the "rah rah I'ma derper" speech those pugless (seriously, there not even good enough to be qualified as a "pick up group") wonders give when we go - hey, let's take 3 left, 5 right, nice and easy win, and one of us will go left to help hold once we've secured right - when they go: "NO! ME DERP MID!". We're not talking of peptalks. Just basic communication. Glad to see you're in the game though. /thumbs up! (sarcasm). What we were talking about and what you want to distract from is that premades don't want to face certain other premades but expect pug players to chin up, suck it up, and face them with that rah rah we can win spirit. So full of crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarl Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) Umm...no. A geared premade will roll your pug no matter how confident you are. there is more fail in this statement than almost any i have seen on the forums... I am not 50 yet, nor do I claim to be any sort of expert on the game, but I have rolled premades with just one other player who knew what they were doing in a pug. many many times. CC, assist a target, lock them down, rinse and repeat. I couldnt tell you how many times in this game and in WAR that people QQ about premades, but the truth is the only reason they are good is the communication. It is very important in PVP. Me and a guildy in WAR would roll the rr100 premades when we were in our 60s. the reason? we would assist and prioritze targets. And when someone was beating on one of us, we could break off and kill that one just by assisting. Sometimes it works wonders and sometimes the CC and AOE is a pain and would wipe us out. However the many times it worked would make it all worth while. It is so much fun wiping up a premade with a pug. Put more effort into playing and less into complaining. Quit whining and man the F up! edit: also no premades??? this a MM f'ing O. if you dont want people to group than you are barking up the wrong tree. go play skyrim or some other single player rpg Edited January 30, 2012 by Gnarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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