An educated look at the Operative nerf.

[GengisKahn]

Funny how this "Bioware has metrics" thing works.

 

Apparently, Bioware has metrics, metrics they DIDNT APPLY untill the sorcerors came to qq into the forums.

Metrics based on a patch that WASN'T the current one, because the patch notes were released less that 48 hours after the buff stacking and lvl 50 brackets were launch, meaning the metrics thay had were from buff stacking against low level people.

 

I can't belive there are people SO NAIVE to belive this wasn't in response to forum qq and was based in metrics. Also, Bioware said it was based on a formula that they applied wrongly, not based in metrics, a magic formula that they never showed and suddenly they realized it was wrong after forum qq, even after months of beta testing.

 

People wake up, dony buy every shiny thing others put in front of you.

 

This nerfs are stupid, could the IA use tweaks? Sure, a GIANT NERF? No, they are not unbalanced to the point of needing this giant nerf.

[Velr]

hard hitting dots? cull hitting like a train and for a good portion unmitigated by armor?

 

btw lethality is awesome for PvP too, it's only that it has less "shock" factor than concealment for obvious reasons, but i'd dare say in a competitive premade v premade enviroment it already is better than concealment in many situations, damn, aoe snare alone makes it worth every point spent in the tree

 

 

Why? When looking at the numbers from the Talent-Calc (which are for lvl 50 whiteout gear?)

 

Lethality:

Corrosive Grenade --> The DMG of this spell for single targets is ridiculously low.. It's like 50 DPS, maybe 55-60 DPS with full Lethality. That’s really not worth the point you spend for it if not for the additional Cull damage the poison grants.

Corrosive Dart --> Is "base" for Lethality probably about 230DPS and for Conceal about 160-70 DPS? So while this hits harder it's still not really WOAH.

Cull --> So here Lethality shines.. This does more damage than Lacerate (but can't proc another TA).

 

So in the end to me it seems like:

 

Does Cull + "stronger" Corrosive Dart make up for:

 

VS

 

30% stronger Crits on Backstab.

Acid-Blade (so Armorpen for all Attacks + the Dot).

3% more DMG on poisoned Targets.

Lacerate + Collateral Strike.

"Free" Backstab (well, you pay for Acid Blade so it's still the same basically )

 

 

Am I missing something important?

[Sookster]

Didn't the devs say they "gathered data" over the months and nerfing oper/scound based on that?

[GengisKahn]

hard hitting dots? cull hitting like a train and for a good portion unmitigated by armor?

 

btw lethality is awesome for PvP too, it's only that it has less "shock" factor than concealment for obvious reasons, but i'd dare say in a competitive premade v premade enviroment it already is better than concealment in many situations, damn, aoe snare alone makes it worth every point spent in the tree

 

 

Lethality as an operative sucks. In both PVE and PVP. Yes you can kill things in lethality, but thats because nothing in this game requires min/maxing.

 

It is decent for snipers though.

[PaZZo]

 

So in the end to me it seems like:

 

Does Cull + "stronger" Corrosive Dart make up for:

 

VS

 

30% stronger Crits on Backstab.

Acid-Blade (so Armorpen for all Attacks + the Dot).

3% more DMG on poisoned Targets.

Lacerate + Collateral Strike.

"Free" Backstab (well, you pay for Acid Blade so it's still the same basically )

 

 

Am I missing something important?

 

in pve (and by this i mean boss fights, anything else is a cakewalk anyway no matter the spec) in my opinion yes, it does. The armor pen from acid blade isn't really a factor, you're gonna have someone else debuffing armor on the target anyway (bar the solo boss fight).

 

Corrosive dart might not be WOAH but it's still a great improvement over the basic one, and cull doesn't just deal more damage than lacerate, it deals pretty much double the damage, and again, keep in mind that the bonus x2 part is internal damage, ignoring armor, which is just plain awesome. Corr nade with WB going on is decent damage, and it lasts long so you don't have to waste many CDs keepint it up

 

also, keep in mind that 2 points in medicine allow you to start the fight with 2 TA already, which means 2 culls before the first shiv, so it pretty much goes weakening blast, corr dart, corr nade, cull. shiv (back to 2 TA, shiv this early for CD optimization), backstab, cull, cull, shiv, cull, etc etc, not counting TAs from dead adds, so tbh you wouldn't miss the TA proc on lacerate that much afterall

 

 

edit: i'm by no means telling you the operative is the ultimate pve dps, of course, i'm just saying that even after the nerf it will be absolutely viable, both concealment and lethality, with an edge (imo, of course) to lethality. PvP wise, it'll still murder, despite what all the FOTM 5 secs kills baddies can say. If i'm wrong, tbh nothing changes anyway, i find way more efficient focusing target after target with my marauder buddy (ohai healer, BAM BAM dead, rinse and repeat) rather than going for the solo kill. Team play, you know, less e-peenery more winning.

Edited January 30, 2012 by PaZZo

[Darth_Xzygy]

The nerfs should be accompanied by buffs/fixes to our other abilities.

 

Evasion needs fixing nao.

 

And I do need a damage nerf. I shouldn't be able to drop a target in 4 seconds, vanish, and do it again.

 

The value of dropping one target in an 8v8 is immense. Taking a healer out of commission? A high damage range? A sorc positioned to pull carriers? I bet I could change the outcome of the superbowl by sniping a quarterback...

[Mazikeen]

Not only that, but as a Powertech I have heavy armor, a lot of health, and I'm very survivable with the Energy Shield ability and all. Not only that, but my DoTs do a considerable amount of damage that will prevent people from capturing turrets/planting bombs/defusing

 

I also play a tank-specced PT, and I'll tell you something very simply: Operatives should never, ever try to flat-out kill a tank.

 

I go after them, yes, but largely to harass them. Slow them, stun them, make them spend time focusing on me. Not unlike a fly bugging you when you try to eat outside. The rest of my team can kill the tin can, my kills come from the Snipers popping people at ranged, the Sorcs annoying people with lightning, etc

[rodgambit]

I'm only 21 on my operative but I've been advancing lethality and I really enjoy it. At level 20 I did 230k and had 51 kills in a voidstar match. I understand that Voidstar lends itself to larger numbers because of all the fighting around doors but it still shows that in the right situations a lethality operative can be very useful. I don't have big burst but I do have the ability to keep people from capping points, which, is what 2/3 of the warzones are about. Huttball is my weakest warzone because I lack the utility that other classes have but I just try to play smart to maximize my usefulness when it comes to winning the match.

 

I do think that concealment needs a slight downgrade to burst, but it's yet to be seen if Bioware goes to far, which, very well might happen because they certainly went too far with the rakata med pack for Biochem. I will say though that between my 50 battlemaster assassin and my alt operative, I've really enjoyed the mix range/melee playstyle of the operative so I look forward to getting him to 50 as well. The game has changed a lot since beta and I haven't agreed with all of the changes but the game is still new and it will eventually stabilize so I just try not to get too worked up over what's happening atm.

[Thankyjack]

Operatives are useless now. They pop out of stealth, hit you a few times, then die or restealth and run away. Seriously, that cannot be how they were designed.

 

They can't kill my sorc. They have absolutely no hope against my vanguard.

 

They were never great outside of stealth and now stealth doesn't matter.

[Thankyjack]

As an OP and pyrotech i will say the following: Use you damn ranged abilities. did a sorc use overload? drop down use explosive probe and snipe to finish him of. Most PT's and OP's seem assume that they are now a pure melee class and they completly ingore their ranged abilities. In short you cannot be kited unless you act like an idiot.

 

My sorc will go toe to toe with you using ranged abilities any day. A good sorc can kite anything not immune to slows to death. Anything and anyone.

[Mazikeen]

Bad Operatives are useless now. They pop out of stealth, hit you a few times, then die or restealth and run away. Seriously, that cannot be how they were designed

 

Fixed that for you

 

I do fine in WZs. No, I don't 3-shot most people, but I do what has to be done and in many cases become a primary target for packs of people chasing me down

 

Poor players will always be poor players, they will just be more obvious as abilities get changed

 

Good players will always be good players, and they will always adjust

[lepyr]

Lethality as an operative sucks. In both PVE and PVP. Yes you can kill things in lethality, but thats because nothing in this game requires min/maxing.

 

It is decent for snipers though.

 

Posts like this are why these forums are ridiculous. Someone who has done absolutely no analysis posts subjective nonsense. Lethality is just behind Concealment in single-target DPS, and the multi-target DPS blows it away. I've actually done a spreadsheet analysis of the data so unlike you I am not talking out of my ***. Also, Lethality is lulz in PVP - Try getting 600 DPS as Concealment. Go ahead, I'll wait.

[lepyr]

WB buffs the extra ticks from Cull since they are classified as Poison Effects. Not using it on any target you plan on Culling makes 0 sense. I would also argue that putting 2 points into Endorphine Rush or Escape Plan is infinitely more useful than 2 points in Chem-Resistant Inlays. I would do something like this for exclusively PvP:

 

http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/imperial_agent/operative/#::fef19ef11ef4e6fe4fe2fde2de2

 

I didn't realize WB proc'd on Cull. That's pretty awesome. Also, I disagree about needing 16 more energy from Adr Probe. I don't usually go OOE in PVP. It's easy to maintain a pretty efficient rotation when you have energy pouring in from all the DOTs you have ticking away. Also, going 2/2 into escape plan at the expense of 2/2 in Adhesive Corrosives and 2/2 in Vanish is really odd. Those are both incredibly strong PVP talents.

[kijthae]

Well, they can kill one person extremely fast. Do you realize how SMALL the impact of killing 1 person in a 8 vs 8 Huttball game is?

 

I stoped reading here

[hypnotize]

Posts like this are why these forums are ridiculous. Someone who has done absolutely no analysis posts subjective nonsense. Lethality is just behind Concealment in single-target DPS, and the multi-target DPS blows it away. I've actually done a spreadsheet analysis of the data so unlike you I am not talking out of my ***. Also, Lethality is lulz in PVP - Try getting 600 DPS as Concealment. Go ahead, I'll wait.

 

Using the "Just roll lethality spec" bull to justify a crippling nerf and a borked tree is stupid. I was the one who rolled 50 levels with by far the hardest spec to level with. The solution for ops is not respecing. Ops is a joke already at 50. Nobody dies faster then we do.

[GengisKahn]

Posts like this are why these forums are ridiculous. Someone who has done absolutely no analysis posts subjective nonsense. Lethality is just behind Concealment in single-target DPS, and the multi-target DPS blows it away. I've actually done a spreadsheet analysis of the data so unlike you I am not talking out of my ***. Also, Lethality is lulz in PVP - Try getting 600 DPS as Concealment. Go ahead, I'll wait.

 

What you dont understand is that dps theorycrafting is NEVER squal to actual DPS.

 

The thing is, with the movement requiremtents of the fights, Lethality suffers a lot more than concealment (they both suffer, but the interruption in lethality rotation hurts more its dps than the interruption in concealment's one).

 

Lethality in PVP sucks against eveen a mediocre team which not stupid healers, your damage as lethality in pvp against a team with healers than know they have dispell is almost 0.

 

Unless they offer some dispell protection ability (like UA in wows warlocks) lethality will never be worth in PVP.

 

The problem, and its the same problem than with this nerf, is that people are calling nerfs and saying some specs are good taking into consideration only bad players.

 

Yes, concealment was probably OP against bad players, players that wandered alone in warzones, players that were too slow to hit the cc breaker, players that dont know how to stop and operative go into stealth again or dont know how to take them out of stealth.

Lethality is probably a decent spec against teams with no healers dispelling.

 

but against good players, concealment was not THAT MUCH op and lethality sucks.

Edited January 30, 2012 by GengisKahn

[PaZZo]

What you dont understand is that dps theorycrafting is NEVER squal to actual DPS.

 

The thing is, with the movement requiremtents of the fights, Lethality suffers a lot more than concealment (they both suffer, but the interruption in lethality rotation hurts more its dps than the interruption in concealment's one).

 

Lethality in PVP sucks against eveen a mediocre team which not stupid healers, your damage as lethality in pvp against a team with healers than know they have dispell is almost 0.

 

Unless they offer some dispell protection ability (like UA in wows warlocks) lethality will never be worth in PVP.

 

The problem, and its the same problem than with this nerf, is that people are calling nerfs and saying some specs are good taking into consideration only bad players.

 

Yes, concealment was probably OP against bad players, players that wandered alone in warzones, players that were too slow to hit the cc breaker, players that dont know how to stop and operative go into stealth again or dont know how to take them out of stealth.

Lethality is probably a decent spec against teams with no healers dispelling.

 

but against good players, concealment was not THAT MUCH op and lethality sucks.

 

 

uhm. i disagree. if anything, concealment is worse than lethality in organized team play, even now. In organized team play, you won't go solo on a target, you'll mow people down assisting another dps or with another dps assisting you, the superior burst of concealment ain't really needed, and the KD on HS is actually worse in this scenario, better let someone else use their CC that doesn't fill up resolve bar. Also, concealment brings absolutely nothing to the table when it comes to teamplay, while lethality's AOE snare can be gamechanging. Not to mention if you're teamplaying, you can't really afford the time to go out of combat and restealth and leave your fellas 1 guy short.

 

Also, let's stop talking about healers dispelling the DOTS, it pretty much never happens, and i can say this since my other 50 is a sorc, and i usually end up healing: at best, you'll have 1 healer every 4 people. So best case scenario is 1 healer having to keep alive 3 people + himself, which usually comes with a giant bullseye on said healer's ***. Believe me when i tell you 99% of the time i'll be healing/bubbling people and won't be able to afford a GCD to cleanse people, and if i do, it will be usually to cleanse a snare from myself and allow me to kite that annoying duo of guys that really really really want to murder me.

 

 

 

ps. if you're saying that as lethality you can't solo a guy that is receiving heals while as concealment you can, well, that's proof concealment needs a nerf, because you ain't winning a 1v1, but a 1v2 mate

Edited January 30, 2012 by PaZZo

[lepyr]

<Lots of incorrect garbage>

 

So let me get this straight. The spec that requires melee range and behind-the-boss positioning 100% of the time (concealment) suffers ... less? from movement in PVE raiding. And the spec that does serious multi-target damage that mostly ignores armor is somehow worse in PVP? I'd counter your post more if it was necessary, but your points prettymuch defeat themselves.

Edited January 30, 2012 by lepyr

[Sookster]

My sorc will go toe to toe with you using ranged abilities any day. A good sorc can kite anything not immune to slows to death. Anything and anyone.

 

Which is why on my PT I like the degauss box (energy shield mez immunity), when I jet charge a sorc and he immediately overloads (99% of sorcs/sage do) and immediately starts using lightning, I can run right back at him or even snare him if he starts running.

[GengisKahn]

So let me get this straight. The spec that requires melee range and behind-the-boss positioning 100% of the time (concealment) suffers ... less? from movement in PVE raiding. And the spec that does serious multi-target damage that mostly ignores armor is somehow worse in PVP? I'd counter your post more if it was necessary, but your points prettymuch defeat themselves.

 

You didnt counter anything.

 

yes, the spec that needs melee range and behind the boss suffers less than the one that needs to keep the dots up in order tyo use the only hard hitting skill it has (the only one).

 

And again, good healers dispell dots, which sends lethality in pvp into oblivion.

[GengisKahn]

uhm. i disagree. if anything, concealment is worse than lethality in organized team play, even now. In organized team play, you won't go solo on a target, you'll mow people down assisting another dps or with another dps assisting you, the superior burst of concealment ain't really needed, and the KD on HS is actually worse in this scenario, better let someone else use their CC that doesn't fill up resolve bar. Also, concealment brings absolutely nothing to the table when it comes to teamplay, while lethality's AOE snare can be gamechanging. Not to mention if you're teamplaying, you can't really afford the time to go out of combat and restealth and leave your fellas 1 guy short.

 

Also, let's stop talking about healers dispelling the DOTS, it pretty much never happens, and i can say this since my other 50 is a sorc, and i usually end up healing: at best, you'll have 1 healer every 4 people. So best case scenario is 1 healer having to keep alive 3 people + himself, which usually comes with a giant bullseye on said healer's ***. Believe me when i tell you 99% of the time i'll be healing/bubbling people and won't be able to afford a GCD to cleanse people, and if i do, it will be usually to cleanse a snare from myself and allow me to kite that annoying duo of guys that really really really want to murder me.

 

 

 

ps. if you're saying that as lethality you can't solo a guy that is receiving heals while as concealment you can, well, that's proof concealment needs a nerf, because you ain't winning a 1v1, but a 1v2 mate

 

Both suffer against organizaed teamplay, but concealment can bother healers more than lethality and force the enemy team into have an eye for them.

 

And if you are a healer and have a dot corcerer or a lethality op in the enemy team, you dispelling will "heal" more than using your heals.

 

Good healers dispell in pvp when its convenient.

 

The aoe snare is nice and can win a hutball game, but in the other two its nto that gamebreaking.

Edited January 30, 2012 by GengisKahn

[rodgambit]

Does a healers ability to clear dots share a GCD with his heals? If so then the time he is spending clearing dots off people is time that he is not healing damage so it's still a win in my book.

[PaZZo]

Both suffer against organizaed teamplay, but concealment can bother healers more than lethality and force the enemy team into have an eye for them.

 

And if you are a healer and have a dot corcerer or a lethality op in the enemy team, you dispelling will "heal" more than using your heals.

 

Good healers dispell in pvp when its convenient.

 

The aoe snare is nice and can win a hutball game, but in the other two its nto that gamebreaking.

 

LOL because you think a healer has the time to take a look at the crapload of tiny icons on a friendly target to see if there's some leth OP dots rolling, while keeping an eye on the mini watching health, and the other eye on the screen to see if anyone even just looks like he's about to beging to think to come and spank you? you sir are delusional. Not to mention that i'd rather drop a 5k heal (1.4 sec cast time after resurgence) anyway rather than dispell something (and with the bazillion effects on a guy it's not even remotely certain you're gonna dispell them). I'd rather have a tank punt the OP away and prevent the cull, which can be said for ANY melee dps.

 

aoe snare is awesome in alderaan too, drop it on those 2-3 meleers chasing your healer and you saved his ***, drop it on their guys kiting and you guaranteed kills. On both /alderaan/voidstar corrosive grenade pretty much means no one's gonna plant/defuse the bomb/cap the point, the only stuff that comes close to that level of effectiveness is sniper's plasma probe (i think it's called, the GTAOE dot probe in eng tree if i remember right). THAT is the stuff that wins games mate.

 

also, you're IMP, you play hutball 80% of the time, so your argument is invalid, get over it

[lepyr]

You didnt counter anything.

 

yes, the spec that needs melee range and behind the boss suffers less than the one that needs to keep the dots up in order tyo use the only hard hitting skill it has (the only one).

 

And again, good healers dispell dots, which sends lethality in pvp into oblivion.

 

Healers don't have time to dispel DOTs. I have healed 100+ WZs as an Op. If you don't use every GCD to cast a heal people die. Dispel a DOT, someone dies. My damage as lethality is over 500k all the time. DPS over 600. The small amount of dispels have little to no noticeable effect, unless you are trying to solo an intelligent healer. You can't touch that damage as concealment doing your cheesy opener over and over. I'm speaking based on hundreds of hours of testing both specs. You are simply hoping what you say is true because you are a concealment fanboy. I would use whichever was better bc it's better, that's why I did objective analysis to figure it out.

 

And how hard do you think it is to keep DOTs up in PVE? Instants that work from 30m that need to be hit every 18-21s are about the easiest thing in the world to cast on cooldown. Also, raiding is about DPCT not DPS of abilities. The highest DPCT of lethality are the DOTs, followed by weakening blast, and finally cull. I don't know why I'm bothering to argue with you TBH. Almost everything you say is grossly incorrect, and it seems like you have zero desire to actually know the truth. You just want to blindly defend your pre-conceived notions.

[Skurkanas]

Does a healers ability to clear dots share a GCD with his heals? If so then the time he is spending clearing dots off people is time that he is not healing damage so it's still a win in my book.

It does. But it takes a healer less time and energy to dispell your dots before they can do serious damage, than it takes to heal them. So it's hardly a win, really.

 

The only reason why it's rarely seen in PUGs atm is that there are about 1-2lethality specced Ops per Server:rolleyes: and PvE at large doesn't require any dispel so far.

Should any of that change, though, healers won't break a sweat adapting.