Dungeon Finder Needed Badly

[Gavin_Darkl]

This is one of the fundamental issues that SWTOR faces though. We have players who are coming for the Old Republic and expect this to play like Mass Effect + KOTOR. They think that they should be able to become massively powerful, and that their time investment should translate into them being "the hero".

 

Except there are other players, and they all want to be a hero as well. You see this big time in the PVP forums, especially at launch, there were so many "but I'm a Sith Lord how on earth could that republic soldier have even hurt me! I can deflect blaster shots with my light saber!" In fact, most of the whining in the PVP forums comes down to something similar, the stark problem of going from "I'm the man" single player, to "that man just killed me" multiplayer.

 

It's a big slap in the ego for a lot of people to find out they're not the best, invincible or even competitive when the game opens up and suddenly becomes massively multiplayer.

 

-

 

Guilds are vital, they really are, because people hit 50 and suddenly they realize *the game just started*, it's not over, it didn't end with my class quest, oh man, I'm basically level 1 all over again! The guild is there to help them get into what an MMO is about for the long run, without one, I don't know how someone can honestly play the game.

 

I guess they can push for it becoming a "push button daily to receive loot", but frankly, even the proponents of such a system have to admit that's an unsatisfying end-game, and just basically trying to turn the multiplayer experience into a single player experience at a slower rate.

 

Mass Effect 3 is going to make you happier than SWTOR ever will if that's the experience you want... but SWTOR will make you happier than any single player game ever can if you get into the social experience. "But it shouldn't be mandatory" is a bad excuse, it should, it's a multiplayer game, and it can't shuck off being an MMo just because you wanted KOTOR3 with trade chat.

 

 

subrosian I completely agree with you. People that have not played MMOs prior too LFD tool that had huge friends list and was well known in a community really do not understand how Vital guilds and community really are. It goes way back to the roots of MMOs, which was built with guilds and Social interaction and communities in mind.

 

I do Agree now though that A Server ONLY LFD tool can be helpful. Also a Looking for Guild tool in game with a LFD tool would be even better.

[BlueSkittles]

Guilds are vital, they really are, because people hit 50 and suddenly they realize *the game just started*, it's not over, it didn't end with my class quest, oh man, I'm basically level 1 all over again! The guild is there to help them get into what an MMO is about for the long run, without one, I don't know how someone can honestly play the game.

 

I guess they can push for it becoming a "push button daily to receive loot", but frankly, even the proponents of such a system have to admit that's an unsatisfying end-game, and just basically trying to turn the multiplayer experience into a single player experience at a slower rate.

 

The problem is that guilds aren't immediately visible to the average player. If, say everyone was put into a guild from the start "newbie guild 01", "newbie guild 02", "newbie guild 03", each with 1000 player max, to see the benefits of such a pseudo-mass group of people, then I would be more ok with "requiring" people to have guilds in order to make the queues faster. (I understand auto-guilding people is a HORRIBLE idea, but I'm just throwing darts on the board)

[Gavin_Darkl]

At this point I couldn't care less what Subwhatever types about anything.

 

But to YOU I'll chit chat. At this point I'm do not have my heart set on a X-Server tool. Then again, I have no interest in being forced to join a guild to run content, so if Guilds main functions aren't running Flashpoints, I can't say that I care. But if a Guild is that important to you, cool, I'll absolutely concede X-server in favor of Server only. A Guild should be a resource you pull from, not a vehicle for play-style. I hope I'm explaining myself right. I may edit this.

 

 

 

Well I think a guild is BOTH a Resource with you pull from as well as a vehicle for play style. For Example myself, I work 50+ hours as a Database Admin, I take online classes, I also have a kid on the way. Its a resource for me to get people for raids, and/or flashpoints a head of time. This way I do not waste my time with my thumb up my ***. Its also a vehicle of play style for me because a group of these members are my friends. They been playing with me for years and know me personally even if we have not met in real life. So if I need a sounding board they are there and vice versa.

 

Now about your interested in finding the try type of guild. This is becoming harder and harder by the day really. I have a post http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=247059 Its about getting a LF guild tool that Limits what guilds can put up for recruitment so players like yourself can do TARGETED searches. The LFguild tool in WoW everyone blankets their recruitment so there is no point to it. And too few of people do the forum search/web site search.

[Gavin_Darkl]

The problem is that guilds aren't immediately visible to the average player. If, say everyone was put into a guild from the start "newbie guild 01", "newbie guild 02", "newbie guild 03", each with 1000 player max, to see the benefits of such a pseudo-mass group of people, then I would be more ok with "requiring" people to have guilds in order to make the queues faster. (I understand auto-guilding people is a HORRIBLE idea, but I'm just throwing darts on the board)

 

I have a post for a looking for Guild tool

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=247059

 

Its a bit long however I had to cover several bases. It also has to be Guild Restrictive because we dont want blanket WE ARE AN EVERYTHING GUILD, and they only have 15 people. Because they are not an everything guild. A guild that is a Community really is not a true guild in the sense of 10 to 100 members. They are guilds inside of guilds. By restricting how they post who they are it allows players in game to do guild searches. It should go as far as saying to a guild if you are a Social Leveling guild you are not a raiding guild and can not post that you are. Not saying they cant become one later, its just they have to pick one or the other. Because truthfully You can not be both unless you are large. I would rather see Sister leveling guilds being allied with Raiding guilds.

[MalignX]

Well I think a guild is BOTH a Resource with you pull from as well as a vehicle for play style. For Example myself, I work 50+ hours as a Database Admin, I take online classes, I also have a kid on the way. Its a resource for me to get people for raids, and/or flashpoints a head of time. This way I do not waste my time with my thumb up my ***. Its also a vehicle of play style for me because a group of these members are my friends. They been playing with me for years and know me personally even if we have not met in real life. So if I need a sounding board they are there and vice versa.

 

Now about your interested in finding the try type of guild. This is becoming harder and harder by the day really. I have a post http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=247059 Its about getting a LF guild tool that Limits what guilds can put up for recruitment so players like yourself can do TARGETED searches. The LFguild tool in WoW everyone blankets their recruitment so there is no point to it. And too few of people do the forum search/web site search.

 

I see where you are coming from.

[BlueSkittles]

I have a post for a looking for Guild tool

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=247059

 

Its a bit long however I had to cover several bases. It also has to be Guild Restrictive because we dont want blanket WE ARE AN EVERYTHING GUILD, and they only have 15 people. Because they are not an everything guild. A guild that is a Community really is not a true guild in the sense of 10 to 100 members. They are guilds inside of guilds. By restricting how they post who they are it allows players in game to do guild searches. It should go as far as saying to a guild if you are a Social Leveling guild you are not a raiding guild and can not post that you are. Not saying they cant become one later, its just they have to pick one or the other. Because truthfully You can not be both unless you are large. I would rather see Sister leveling guilds being allied with Raiding guilds.

 

So funny because just after I made my post I saw your link (I just posted there to +1 it). Great minds and all that.

[Gavin_Darkl]

Well I am calling it a night. I think there is some Middle Ground for having a LFD tool. It has to really be a middle ground because as I stated too accessible it breaks guild and community play. Done right it works out for everyone even. Just like too much of a good think can be bad for you.

[Gavin_Darkl]

O 1 more fast thing. Yes Very low pop servers will have problems with stuff. Simple Solution without making a X server LFD tool. Shut them down move people to another server. Yea blah blah blah about your name, Sorry but you might loose it. I really am; however a name can not account for a server with only 1 or 2 thousand people on it to keep it running when you can cap out at 20k. If later on the server is needed they can re-open it and you move back, its just foolish to have under populated servers running.

 

It hurts the community to have a low pop server that is stagnate or dieing, it also cost money to keep running even if its a Virtual machine. Might as well Save money by people not quieting because they are on a dead server, as well as saving money by not having the server running at this time.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Gavin_Darkl

[BlueSkittles]

O 1 more fast thing. Yes Very low pop servers will have problems with stuff. Simple Solution without making a X server LFD tool. Shut them down move people to another server. Yea blah blah blah about your name, Sorry but you might loose it. I really am; however a name can not account for a server with only 1 or 2 thousand people on it to keep it running when you can cap out at 20k. If later on the server is needed they can re-open it and you move back, its just foolish to have under populated servers running.

 

It hurts the community to have a low pop server that is stagnate or dieing, it also cost money to keep running even if its a Virtual machine. Might as well Save money by people not quieting because they are on a dead server, as well as saving money by not having the server running at this time.

 

Crap. So close. Low population and off-peak times are still going to be a problem. Wait....only allow the x-server option if server has low population and/or it's a time of the day when there is no one else on. Maybe...maybe...so close.

 

Edit to add: Bioware/EA are NOT going to merge servers anytime soon. Bad sign to the world/stock-holders your game is suffering.

Edited January 29, 2012 by BlueSkittles

[Manathayria]

This is one of the fundamental issues that SWTOR faces though. We have players who are coming for the Old Republic and expect this to play like Mass Effect + KOTOR. They think that they should be able to become massively powerful, and that their time investment should translate into them being "the hero".

 

What's funny is then you also have people that came from games like FFXI and SWG that're on the opposite side of the fence. Which is also likely why we have so many that are hard line 'no' to anything that touches breaking the server barrier.

 

FFXI you did not level without a group (Unless you were Beastmaster or Puppetmaster type).

 

SWG you needed a group for accepting the higher missions, and, if I remember right, you technically wanted to stay in group to increase quality of anything that dropped.

 

I miss FFXI (yes, I had a massive friends list on there) and I miss some of the other more social games. WoW kinda introduced/reintroduced the idea that being a full lone wolf was fine for leveling, then made the mistake of introducing the concept to raids and end game.

 

The shock for some of us when wow came out was 'holy ****, you can do content in a good game without a group?!?!'

 

I'm wondering, if some of the low/standard pop servers never break being 'heavy' and still have people complaining about finding groups - will they give server merges.

 

Mind you, some of the issue I see with merges at the moment is, that may be how we're controlling some of the lag and issues that're bug/server related till things actually get fixed. Error 9000 seems more common at peak times than others for my partner when he's playing.

[Neiloch]

Some what true, However I feel that if you are not needed to sit in the fleet to say "LFG any HM" then maybe you should be doing dailies to get credits or other things in the world then sitting in the fleet doing nothing. It can also help out big time with having more people on planet for getting heroic dailies done.

 

Now if you are leveling a character, get out there and do quest the LFD tool will get you one. You get in a group, use the Fleet pass go run it, you are done bam its up go a head que again while you wait 30 to 60 minutes do some quest to level.

 

Less time standing around doing nothing.

 

I don't see how this argue AGAINST porting people to an entrance, only for it.

[Manathayria]

Crap. So close. Low population and off-peak times are still going to be a problem. Wait....only allow the x-server option if server has low population and/or it's a time of the day when there is no one else on. Maybe...maybe...so close.

 

Edit to add: Bioware/EA are NOT going to merge servers anytime soon. Bad sign to the world/stock-holders your game is suffering.

 

Remember as well that we potentially loose the Aussie community in March when their servers go live. Apparently Bioware/EA have servers down under that they may start up for them. Which if that happens, our off hours loose more people to pull from because of them migrating.

 

That will open a whole new set of issues for us. Most Aussie players pre-ordered/ordered through US to get theirs - it's not released for them yet. We don't know if they'll have the option to stay on our servers yet or not, if I'm remembering my information right.

 

That right there has the potential to mess with low pop and off-peak players for server-only LFD.

 

Which... if they remove Aussies from our servers/don't give us the chance to roll on theirs this game will lose me when my sub is up. I'm in the us dating and Aussie and he's my partner on here so....

[BlueSkittles]

Remember as well that we potentially loose the Aussie community in March when their servers go live. Apparently Bioware/EA have servers down under that they may start up for them. Which if that happens, our off hours loose more people to pull from because of them migrating.

 

That will open a whole new set of issues for us. Most Aussie players pre-ordered/ordered through US to get theirs - it's not released for them yet. We don't know if they'll have the option to stay on our servers yet or not, if I'm remembering my information right.

 

That right there has the potential to mess with low pop and off-peak players for server-only LFD.

 

Which... if they remove Aussies from our servers/don't give us the chance to roll on theirs this game will lose me when my sub is up. I'm in the us dating and Aussie and he's my partner on here so....

 

Yeah I was just thinking of that earlier. Will they still do that if things aren't going so well? Or have you heard lately anything about it still going on?

[BlueSkittles]

Holy crap. Color me equal parts shocked and delighted to come back to find people rationally discussing either side and conceding individual points. Holy friggin crap. There may be hope for the human race yet.

 

Just wanted to quote your post, MalignX. Love this.

[Manathayria]

Yeah I was just thinking of that earlier. Will they still do that if things aren't going so well? Or have you heard lately anything about it still going on?

 

We don't know yet.

 

Last I heard it's still being discussed. For now, as far as we know we'll find out in march when Bioware/EA go "Surprise!" and release it.

 

Loosing the Aussie players though - if it happens - will likely have a big impact on if they have to do more to the LFD system, and it may push them looking into x-server sooner rather than later or may have them looking into it where they might not have done it at all.

 

Edit: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=61243&highlight=australia

 

Best answer that can be given - they're looking into it.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Manathayria

[Nitewolfe]

subrosian I completely agree with you. People that have not played MMOs prior too LFD tool that had huge friends list and was well known in a community really do not understand how Vital guilds and community really are. It goes way back to the roots of MMOs, which was built with guilds and Social interaction and communities in mind.

 

I do Agree now though that A Server ONLY LFD tool can be helpful. Also a Looking for Guild tool in game with a LFD tool would be even better.

 

I feel the need to respond to this.

I am a veteran mmo gamer i can trace my game times back to before the mmo genre was even here. Back to the days of MUD's.

I disagree with you. You like most of the anti lfd tool people are looking thru rose colored glasses. The mmo genre and the player base has evolved and i personally prefer this newer brighter experience. As a whole we and the mmo genre are no longer a small minority. Where once a game was successful with 200k players the numbers now reach into the millions!

The whole concept of single server communities needs to vanish the way of the dino.

Those of you anti cross server lfd people call me anti social.. I call you the anti social ones.

I want my community to be the whole player base hundreds of thousands of people ( if not millions) to have a chance to interact with. Regardless of if i ever meet them again or not. You see i feel they are people and i am richer for having interacted with them (the good and the bad) regardless of if i ever meet them again or not.

I fully support cross server lfd tools. I also fully support cross server chats friends list and guilds!

DAOC pull off server clustering long ago where in most of the game we were no longer restricted to one server worth of players. I can not believe that in todays age even more can be done. Why wait till the servers are small to do clusters? To many people could end up in one zone? Swtor already has phase tech built in to keep that from happening!

 

What all this boils down to me is people insisting they live in a gated housing area, Where most of us would prefer the life and the excitement of the metroplex!

I get excited about meeting new people playing with them. Even if its one time and for only 1 hour or even less. I do not live in fear of the bad player or the ninja looter.

I almost feel like asking some of yall to tell me where the bad player touched you.

Since some of you seem to be scared for life from the bad experience.

 

 

I can only hope that these anti cross server lfd people do not apply the same requirements to your real life social actions!

[navarh]

The same players who are too lazy to take the time to form a solid group for Flashpoint and Operations are not magically "not lazy" in every other area of the game.

lie

in that_game i'm "to lazy" to take the time for solid group for dungeon

and in the same time am not lazy to find guild and raid 25ppl content…

This is one of the fundamental issues that SWTOR faces though. We have players who are coming for the Old Republic and expect this to play like Mass Effect + KOTOR.

wrong

real problem: they not so wrong as you think, this game is actually played as another KOTOR

It's a big slap in the ego for a lot of people to find out they're not the best, invincible or even competitive when the game opens up and suddenly becomes massively multiplayer.

bad game design is bad

deal with it

ofc you can argue with that but all that "insctanced stuff" will remain there, and it's nothing even close to mmo, that's single-player

The guild is there to help them get into what an MMO is about for the long run, without one, I don't know how someone can honestly play the game.

Massively Multiplayer Online game not Join Guild Online

and when people will join you guild for only one purpose:

get groups and at last play the game they will realize that even 40ppl online is not enough, they will leave for guild with 200ppl online and there they (if not dumb) will saw that this "guild" is not different from general chat

that is cruel truth of real world

[navarh]

I get excited about meeting new people playing with them.

yeah you right here

 

and "they" (anti-LFG crowd) now want to turn massive multiplayer into multiplayer with what? 20-30 people in your guild?… and erase others

Edited January 29, 2012 by navarh

[subrosian]

What's funny is then you also have people that came from games like FFXI and SWG that're on the opposite side of the fence. Which is also likely why we have so many that are hard line 'no' to anything that touches breaking the server barrier.

 

FFXI you did not level without a group (Unless you were Beastmaster or Puppetmaster type).

 

SWG you needed a group for accepting the higher missions, and, if I remember right, you technically wanted to stay in group to increase quality of anything that dropped.

 

I miss FFXI (yes, I had a massive friends list on there) and I miss some of the other more social games. WoW kinda introduced/reintroduced the idea that being a full lone wolf was fine for leveling, then made the mistake of introducing the concept to raids and end game.

 

The shock for some of us when wow came out was 'holy ****, you can do content in a good game without a group?!?!'

 

I'm wondering, if some of the low/standard pop servers never break being 'heavy' and still have people complaining about finding groups - will they give server merges.

 

Mind you, some of the issue I see with merges at the moment is, that may be how we're controlling some of the lag and issues that're bug/server related till things actually get fixed. Error 9000 seems more common at peak times than others for my partner when he's playing.

 

I know people like to play the "BUT IT WILL MEAN THE GAME IS DYING" on server merges... but they have to happen. Literally HAVE to happen. And not because the game is dying, but because *the game is doing well*. People keep joining SWTOR all the time, and because they are just picking whatever server their friend is on, or picking a server out of the hat "oh that one is Standard pop, sounds good"... we are winding up with server balance issues.

 

The admins stepping in and consolidating the imbalanced servers together to form a couple of higher pop, balanced servers would be ideal. Yeah, it means some players are going to wind up losing their name, but frankly that's a small price to pay for a healthy game.

 

-

 

The alternative is to wind up like WoW. You have a game that had probably twice as many US subscribers at its peak as it does now (talking active players, not subscriber numbers), which means that there are a lot of servers with just no players on one faction or the other... and what do they do? They introduced cross-realm dungeons and raiding.

 

That's NOT a solution, it doesn't change that there are no guilds, no one to level with, a poor AH, and deserted cities on their side of the fence. It doesn't change that if they go to do the much touted world PVP in Mists, that they're going to be outnumbered 50 to 1.

 

-

 

It's a poor business model, as has been pointed out, that so many of the modern day MMOs are scared to mess with server pops. Merges are fine, we need to stop viewing them as the dark herald of "OMG THE GAME MUST BE DYING" - I would *far* rather we stop playing the marketing game of padded subscriber numbers, and focus on the player experience.

[subrosian]

I can only hope that these anti cross server lfd people do not apply the same requirements to your real life social actions!

 

Sit down with a piece of paper (no phone, facebook, etc) and write down all of the people you know. List every person you can fully name and picture a face for. Count it. I can guarantee your list will not be longer than 200 names. Our brains are not built for a social structure encompassing millions of people, and in fact we do not think of numbers larger than about 200 as actual people.

 

The expression "one is a tragedy, a million is a statistic" is frank, but it's true.

 

Your social interaction at the "metro level" is based on shared cultural norms. Thanks to westernization and the internet, we're all fairly alike in our memes, norms, standards and culture.

 

The idea that having millions of people in a X-LFG is going to be "better" is dubious at best, it's a claim that random social interaction is superior to more invested relationships. You can't possibly tell me that someone has been enriched by having 1000 random people on their friends list - they're going to get far more out of having a single real friend to count on.

 

I don't see the world of earlier MMOs with rose-tinted glasses, they had some significant problems, not the least of which was the required to play the game insane amounts of time just to be able to do anything... but I do view a healthy community as something that was a guarantee of the early days of not having the mass populous dictate the direction of gameplay.

 

I don't see there ever being another "serious MMO" that gets as many people playing as WoW, not in the days of Free-to-Play and Farmville. I want SWTOR to be a success in the long term, and I don't see appealing purely to the populist "quick button is shiny" crowd as being the way to do that. There are tools that I'm sure will go into place, and server consolidations that need to happen... but going too far in that direction is just as bad as going back to 100 days played to level cap.

[navarh]

write down all of the people you know.

done

to more invested relationships.

any space left for that on my list

 

and by "any left" i mean NOTHING, in game i need players to play with, not "more invested relationship" is this so hard to grasp? understand?

 

i'll tell you why it so hard to you

your list "of the people you know" is empty

blank

did not exist, that's why

Edited January 29, 2012 by navarh

[Touchbass]

EDIT: Didn't mean to go on a tirade down below lol. We can agree to disagree on the guild issue it's fine but we need to agree on auto porting. There needs to be auto-porting in whatever system gets implemented.

 

1) It saves time

 

2) If the group loses a member, without an auto port it runs the dangerous chance of disbanding. I'm seeing this all the time now and it's an issue

 

Really good discussion going on here,Gavin_Darkl, thanks for joining us. I thought I'd chime in on the whole "guild" discussion as our talks appear to be drifting that way. Yes, guilds are a resource pool that you can draw from to accomplish almost anything in an MMORPG. In a tight spot at off peak hours and desperately need a tank a guild can be a great solution.

 

Lets be honest here, gaming demographics have changed and people who play the most hours a week or on a schedule benefit from a guild while others don't. I log in for a few hours here or there and like to do some stuff, i'm increasingly becoming the majority of the playerbase in MMORPG's. I highly doubt players in this playtime cohort are reaping the benefits of guilds. I've had to leave my guild already because whenever I log in I get an officer asking me about my leveling and my schedule when I hit 50. I don't plan on ever having a set schedule to play a video game every again and will probably never raid because of it, I'm ok with that.

 

I also can't be only one who had non-guild hidden alts from back in the day when I played more serious. You log in to have fun and you get X amount of tells asking for run throughs and favours that take up hours of your time. I love the social aspects of guilds but I don't like being coerced into running people through stuff (which is happening with low level content), I don't expect people to be a charity case on me and I expect it vice versa.

 

Guilds don't solve the core problem, if people are available to group with online then nothing can be done except an X-LFD server queue. Once you factor in guild drama, loot drama, raid or die mentalities, guild poaching and endlessly regearing new members, mandatory schedules that last months and my personal favourite having your Main Tank not show up and having to call off the night .... makes me think guilds are an archaic function towards fun.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Touchbass

[Touchbass]

I am thinking I may have been a bit harsh on guilds in the aforementioned post so allow me to clarify a couple things. I want guilds to exist in this game and server a purpose, I just don't like the notion of be left in the dark because I can't find a guild that suits my interests for non-raiding content.

 

What about X-LFD for leveling content and regular/heroic dungeons but add an additional tier that is too difficult to pug or make it server side only?

[Gavin_Darkl]

Crap. So close. Low population and off-peak times are still going to be a problem. Wait....only allow the x-server option if server has low population and/or it's a time of the day when there is no one else on. Maybe...maybe...so close.

 

Edit to add: Bioware/EA are NOT going to merge servers anytime soon. Bad sign to the world/stock-holders your game is suffering.

 

No. If you allow X-Server you again add in people not taking responsibility for their actions. for example a PST player going on an EST server and complaining at 8pm his time the server is off Peak hours. This is true however it was his own fault and own cause.

 

Another logical argument is for the people that are causing major problems on their server now only have to wait til lets say 11pm their server time. Now its Cross server and guess what the precautions that we put into place to keep this people from being problematic they are freed again. If it was server only they may still be sitting in queue all night because 75% of their server ignored them for being a problem. The 25% is rarely ever in Queue.

 

Sorry Cross server is a non starter for me. It should never be Cross server. Server's shutting down are likely coming because enough people are asking for them and population is moving off them already. The business augment for keeping them up barely exists and is only due to the "I WANT MY NAME" more then any Logical argument like if we shut down 25% of the servers the other 75% will be queuing again.

[Gavin_Darkl]

 

What all this boils down to me is people insisting they live in a gated housing area, Where most of us would prefer the life and the excitement of the metroplex!

I get excited about meeting new people playing with them. Even if its one time and for only 1 hour or even less. I do not live in fear of the bad player or the ninja looter.

I almost feel like asking some of yall to tell me where the bad player touched you.

Since some of you seem to be scared for life from the bad experience.

 

 

I can only hope that these anti cross server lfd people do not apply the same requirements to your real life social actions!

 

Sorry Nitewolfe but the Minute its Cross server the minute Guilds become Obsolete. Look at WoW you dont need a guild at all anymore in WoW, you can Raid, you can run Instances, you can run Battlegrounds all with out ever playing the game the way it was meant to be played. Sorry Non Starter again, and this will cause people that have come so far to tell you to stick it up your *** because you are not willing to compromise. If you were to suggest 1 Large server for the entire game like EVE that would be something NEW and would be a valid Argument.