Dungeon Finder Needed Badly

[RachelAnne]

Anybody who is against LFG has too much time , just like me !!

 

And is a freaking selfishe person , who cannot see that others don´t have time !

For a casual promoting STORY envoirement MMO , already things are out of balance.

 

So to retain your future subscriptors , who are a coming from bioware social .

B are the casual lot , not hardcore MMO but cause of BIOWARE completeness and dedication to get all quests done !!

 

You beter implement a LFG system soon , cause while things are fine in the 1-30 range.

Things get out of wack after Colloid wars .

 

Now anybody saying no need for LFG , don´t use it !

Spam the trade keep to your guilds and friends , and keep being selfishe and greedy.

 

Honestly , this is priority issue one , since the 50 groups are getting less and less.

Instead of MORE and MORE like promised .

 

Do you really think that the people who post here all day about a LFG tool are casuals?

 

Casuals dont have the time to sit in forums all day! I also recommend you to read the thread, there were many valid points about the "dont use it" claim of you.

[Drake_Hound]

Do you really think that the people who post here all day about a LFG tool are casuals?

 

Casuals dont have the time to sit in forums all day! I also recommend you to read the thread, there were many valid points about the "dont use it" claim of you.

 

No but how would you know who are casual ?

You ain´t casual , neither am I .

 

But big difference between you and me !

Is that I go play with casual players , who needs help , then bugger off cause they want to quest .

And 1 hour later they need help again ..

 

So that I am such NICE guy to help them out , is my problem .

But guess what why should I need to help them out , when a system can take care of that selfishe need .

 

Same as you can ignore your own selfishe need to be against a LFG .

You know what is beter , keep paying for the product improvement , while I take a 6 month break how does that feel ?

[Manathayria]

Do you really think that the people who post here all day about a LFG tool are casuals?

 

Casuals dont have the time to sit in forums all day! I also recommend you to read the thread, there were many valid points about the "dont use it" claim of you.

 

Actually... posting while I pack. I'll be gone from game the next two weeks due to training if my orders get straightened out. I have enough time to post while doing that and between planets/groups when I'm playing to post something usually.

 

Have to ask it, did you read the full post I did on page 45, or no? I did my best to make sure it wasn't possible for people to mi-interpret it, but it seems that keeps failing, because they see a post later on referencing something that was said and think that was a full post. (Looking like i need to just keep going in depth and making people read massive posts instead of referencing anything stated earlier).

 

(Honestly though, I think RachelAnne has me on ignore, but w/e )

Edited February 1, 2012 by Manathayria

[Neiloch]

Do you really think that the people who post here all day about a LFG tool are casuals?

 

Casuals dont have the time to sit in forums all day! I also recommend you to read the thread, there were many valid points about the "dont use it" claim of you.

 

You really need to stop ASSUMING what the actions and thought processes of people other than yourself are if you want to be taken seriously.

[RachelAnne]

True. I guess I was more referring to the design side of it. They said they are still designing it and will get back to us once they are developing it, they will let us know what that is. Why the hell do they have to wait to design it when they can just copy WoW's. But maybe you're right, they're trying to help out your issues with the WoW LFD.

 

Yes I am confident that they try to make a better tool than wow has. If they just add the wow tool, then the people who left wow because of it might leave and those that just are on vacation from wow will go anyways.

All the recent MMO´s made that mistake, so I am guessing they learned from those.

 

Not offended. Just impatient and sad. And maybe I'm not the type to play a game for years on end anymore. Maybe WoW was an exception and I'll never play a game the same. My hope was that having a really good LFG system would help make me love SWTOR more, but perhaps not.

 

I think it depends a lot on your kind of fun that your looking for. If you just want to do dungeons, then you end up bored sooner or later as the day will come when you saw all dungeons and have gathered all loot.

While this does happen anyways, its not that much of a problem if you met people during that "exploring" phase. As then you just play with them and the fun does come by playing with them.

But if you just use the LFD tool, then you dont meet anyone and thats also the reason why so many leave wow lately. They have seen everything and dont know anyone, to play an MMO is not fun alone, you need people there.

There the wow tool has also its weakness, I sometimes met nice people (not often but ya it happend), I had no way of interacting with them after the run.

 

And I NEVER wanted to go back to WoW. I was done. SWTOR was going to be it for the next seven years. SWTOR improves upon WoW and every other MMO in almost every way. And unfortunately not having a proper LFG/LFD just happens to be a way that I'm willing to unsubscribe over. I never thought it would be. I thought I would be able to get past it, when I heard they didn't have a good system. But either way, I'm frustrated, angry, and sad.

 

I think its not easy for those who just played wow with the LFD tool to adjust, but I think its not impossible.

 

BW is a bit slacking with helping those people out. Most servers today have an LFG chat channel, which you could join. By doing so you can go out into the world and see if someone does need a helping hand at a dungeon or some elite quest.

 

BW should have had such a channel right on release and not weeks later.

 

If designed right the LFD tool could be the way to go for those like you or even for me when I am playing at strange hours and the friends are not online. The question just is, will it come and how will it look like, as I doubt it will be much help for you if you cant interact with people, as its pretty much always the people that keep you at MMO´s and not the daily dungeon run with strangers.

[Manathayria]

If designed right the LFD tool could be the way to go for those like you or even for me when I am playing at strange hours and the friends are not online. The question just is, will it come and how will it look like, as I doubt it will be much help for you if you cant interact with people, as its pretty much always the people that keep you at MMO´s and not the daily dungeon run with strangers.

 

Only reason people call for something like battletags as well - to try being able to interact with those people again later, however, you kinda need something that's not making you ask for the battletag/similar option, you would need a x-server friends list that lets you 'friend' the account without the extra hoops to jump through - just as you'd friend someone on your own server. There's a lot of options out there - the question is which they'll use and what lessons they're taking to heart from the other MMOs.

 

Guild wars actually had the account friend option right - I don't recall seeing anything else like it in any other game (other than wow's battletags/RealID)

Edited February 1, 2012 by Manathayria

[Kenmuir]

Yes I am confident that they try to make a better tool than wow has. If they just add the wow tool, then the people who left wow because of it might leave and those that just are on vacation from wow will go anyways.

All the recent MMO´s made that mistake, so I am guessing they learned from those.

 

Why would an LFD tool be the reason they leave? Because WoW has a tool, SWTOR can't have one that's the same?

 

I would think people would be more likely to go back to WoW because some of the classes in SWTOR are exact copies of classes in WoW, and the unpolishedness of the game.

 

 

I think it depends a lot on your kind of fun that your looking for. If you just want to do dungeons, then you end up bored sooner or later as the day will come when you saw all dungeons and have gathered all loot.

 

Ah, I see the problem, people don't enjoy or want to play the game in the way that you do.

 

While this does happen anyways, its not that much of a problem if you met people during that "exploring" phase. As then you just play with them and the fun does come by playing with them.

 

If the fun comes from "playing with them," not from trying to form a group, then wouldn't a tool that helps people create groups faster and easier be a good thing?

 

But if you just use the LFD tool, then you dont meet anyone

 

I don't understand this comment. How can you not "meet anyone" in the LFD tool. Does the LFD tool disable chat?

 

Before you say: "bbbbut, I can't play with someone from another server." Blizz already figured that one out and now you can queue with people from other servers.

 

and thats also the reason why so many leave wow lately.

 

Source?

 

They have seen everything and dont know anyone, to play an MMO is not fun alone, you need people there.

 

So once again, you seem to have a problem with people playing this game a different way than the way you enjoy. So much so, that you aren't even able to empathize with other player's desires(how they want to play).

 

There the wow tool has also its weakness, I sometimes met nice people (not often but ya it happend), I had no way of interacting with them after the run.

 

Factually Untrue after the introduction of the Real ID system.

 

I think its not easy for those who just played wow with the LFD tool to adjust, but I think its not impossible.

 

Why should they? What benefits do they gain?

 

BW is a bit slacking with helping those people out. Most servers today have an LFG chat channel, which you could join. By doing so you can go out into the world and see if someone does need a helping hand at a dungeon or some elite quest.

 

Why should the players be the ones making it easier to play the game that they are playing for?

 

 

BW should have had such a channel right on release and not weeks later.

 

What does a global channel accomplish, and what separates it substantially from an LFD tool a la WoW?

 

If designed right the LFD tool

 

What, in your opinion, is a good design for an LFD tool that doesn't have arbitrary restrictions?

 

 

I doubt it will be much help for you if you cant interact with people, as its pretty much always the people that keep you at MMO´s and not the daily dungeon run with strangers.

 

So why do you not want what has been shown in the most successful MMO to date as the best tool for playing with other players?

[Manathayria]

But if you just use the LFD tool, then you dont meet anyone and thats also the reason why so many leave wow lately. They have seen everything and dont know anyone, to play an MMO is not fun alone, you need people there.

There the wow tool has also its weakness, I sometimes met nice people (not often but ya it happend), I had no way of interacting with them after the run.

Part of why I'm thinking they should add something that encourages guild/friend groups... I know it's not a full solution, but server-only queues might benefit from this - even x-server would. Someone that maybe sees the notice that you get rewards for grouping with friends may ask if at the start of the run they can friend someone - if they have a good run they might look those people up again later.

 

Ignoring the concept of x-server fully for a bit and focusing on the community aspect of LFD and how it impacts things in the game.

 

Partly, it goes back to what the dev was saying in the one interview Blue linked. People are taught 'don't talk to strangers' but they crave social interaction in some form, they crave being around people and being accepted. An MMO offers that to some people, but they really don't offer much in rewards for being part of the group, for reaching out of the little box we build around ourselves in RL and carry over to the game world. WoW's LFD (ignoring the x-server aspect) rewards tanks and healers for pugging alone when their classes are low population. Which is a horrible idea if you're looking at a community and wanting to keep it together.

 

This is why I offered the suggestion for rewarding people for grouping with friends/guild rather than based on needs of class. It's a concept that might work in any system and may encourage more people to get guilds/expand their friends lists.

 

I think its not easy for those who just played wow with the LFD tool to adjust, but I think its not impossible.

 

BW is a bit slacking with helping those people out. Most servers today have an LFG chat channel, which you could join. By doing so you can go out into the world and see if someone does need a helping hand at a dungeon or some elite quest.

 

BW should have had such a channel right on release and not weeks later.

 

If designed right the LFD tool could be the way to go for those like you or even for me when I am playing at strange hours and the friends are not online. The question just is, will it come and how will it look like, as I doubt it will be much help for you if you cant interact with people, as its pretty much always the people that keep you at MMO´s and not the daily dungeon run with strangers.

Truth. I still occasionally log into wow because of guild - not because of the new content (which I am still shying away from - I have yet to do much of anything with firelands, but I keep running with the lower geared people in guild/people's alts).

 

As for adjusting off the LFD tool WoW had... I loved DDO's, I haven't tried the new one someone mentioned with LoTRO (though I may when I get back from training) and the current one in SW:ToR? It's almost exactly the same as the system used in FFXI. The big difference between it being a success in FFXI and here:

 

1. I think, FFXI had a bigger player pool on each server (remember we had no regional servers either, it was everyone together with an auto-translate function) and less of an off-peak time than we have.

 

2. NA players stepped directly into a game with an established LFG system. Unless you were looking for a specific mission that was unpopular you could usually flag up and run anything without having to sit in town. People on server were already adjusted to the system, and if you pay attention, the JP players really had final say on a lot of things. The system WoW has for LFD would have been frowned upon. Reputation meant a lot to players there, and probably still does (I kinda want to re-visit it again).

[Nitewolfe]

Hey Nitewolf, mind if I add this to my second post on the front page? You pretty much nailed all of my arguments.

 

Fell free to i would be honored!

Been playing hard today and need to do some reading here the thread has really moved!

[Ethern]

I also recommend you to read the thread, there were many valid points about the "dont use it" claim of you.

There is none in this thread, apart the fear of the loss of accountability for the X-server option.

However we see ridiculous profiles among the anti LFD crowd:

- the guild zealot

- the doomsayer

- the selfish one who don't have problem to find groups in his server and assume it's the same for everyone

- the so called ultra social who think spamming LFG is the summum of socializing...

- etc.

 

The more you look at those, the more you realize why they can't b taken seriously and how their discourse is deprived of any real arguments. It's more anecdotal and highly speculative than anything.

[BigGun]

Hey all,

 

I just posted a new thread on this issue...and kind of feeling I should have just put it here instead. It is a wall of text, thanks to years of bottled up feelings about WoW's current system, so I felt that I would put it in its own thread. There is a lot of intelligent and well thought out discussion happening in this thread though making me feel like it would be better suited in here. Check out it and tell me what you think.

 

BigGun

 

Edit: Yeah I decided to move it. I'm so tired after writing it, I don't know why I put it in its own thread. XD

Edited February 1, 2012 by BigGun
Moved It

[BlueSkittles]

2. NA players stepped directly into a game with an established LFG system. Unless you were looking for a specific mission that was unpopular you could usually flag up and run anything without having to sit in town. People on server were already adjusted to the system, and if you pay attention, the JP players really had final say on a lot of things. The system WoW has for LFD would have been frowned upon. Reputation meant a lot to players there, and probably still does (I kinda want to re-visit it again).

 

What you said here sounds a lot like the "anti-LFD" crowd. Not in a bad way, just it seems like the FFXI system you are describing is how they want the system to work.

 

"you could usually flag up and run anything without having to sit in town." Like how the "anti-LFD" say in WoW everyone sat in town. Maybe they were playing FFXI and they never saw people just waiting in town. So when they saw that in WoW they thought "how stupid, there should be groups being put together and accomplishing quests."

 

I'm totally overgeneralizing based on your examples but the similarities are uncanny.

Edited February 1, 2012 by BlueSkittles

[BigGun]

This post contains the reasons why the current LFD tool in WoW should not be implemented in this game and an alternative that I believe would be better.

 

Now for a brief intro, let me give you a little bit of background on my MMO experience. Quite simply, I played WoW since Vanilla, quit shortly after Cata, and now play ToR.

 

From my experience, does ToR need a better LFG/LFD system? ABSOLUTELY!

 

Does it need the current WoW LFD/LFR system (which I will refer to as the Wrath system since that is when it was implemented(SPOILER ALERT! There was a LFG system in BC, people just forget about. More on that later))? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

 

Let me clarify what I don't like about the Wrath LFD tool. It is cross server and it restricts players based on "gear score". The basic points behind it of course to find a group for a dungeon which I am all for and, as stated above, do believe a better system needs to be implemented in ToR.

 

Many of you may now be asking "Why not?" and others will quit reading at this point and throw virtual tomatoes at me. I implore you to hold your tomatoes and continue reading.

 

Point Numero Uno: This is not WoW.

 

(Granted I believe a WoW like system is in several popular MMOs now but I have only played this and WoW so I can't speak for other MMOs). Nor do most reasonable people want this to become a WoW clone or "WoW in Space" as some have called it. Why should we make a system exactly like WoW's when we could do better! (More on that later.)

 

Point Two: It will Encourage Ninjas

 

HOLD THOSE VIRTUAL FRUITS/VEGETABLES!

 

 

a. False. The current loot system allows it. That system should be revisited. Gear that cannot be equipped by your class/AC should have the need button greyed out - also a new loot button should be added so the loot rolls will look like this: [Need] [Companion] [Greed] [Disassemble]

 

This is an excellent point made by Manathayria that I partial agree with. The part that I agree with is that the current loot system needs to be changed ESPECIALLY if BioWare wants to implement a LFG/LFD system.

 

Simple solution and the best one that I see is what Mana suggests. The need button should be grayed out for gear your class/AC cannot use and implement a "Need For Companion" Button so that people who say "BUT I NEED THIS FOR MY COMPANION!" can also be happy and not come QQ on the forums. Need comes before Need For Companion and Disassemble and Greed roll together. Everyone is happy!

 

However, more Ninjas will come out, but let me expand that to say that more scum of MMOs will come out.

 

"But that is your opinion, what evidence do you have to back that claim?"

 

Unfortunately I don't have screen shots to back this claim but I have my experiences with the Wrath LFD tool, which were the vast majority of the time unpleasant. From when I was a hardcore player in Wrath to a causal in Cata my experience with the tool was dreary.

 

Why? Because in a world where no one cares about what they do in an instance they will do what ever they darn well please. They will need gear they can need on just to sell it or strip it for mods. They will kick someone for not knowing the mechanics of a fight (This happen to me numerous times as a Cata casual, is it my fault I haven't run the instance before?), they will kick you because they think your gear sucks, (happened to me although my gear didn't suck, it just wasn't all purples), and you will get kicked because so and so buddy is also a Trooper and needs the gear (also happened to me before).

 

Yes, there are people who currently do whatever they please in Flash Points and don't care

about what others think but I can assure you there days are numbered.

 

"Again, you have no concrete evidence to back this but just your opinion."

 

Indeed I have only my experiences to go off of for this but I will explain. The day BioWare makes server specific forums (which is an inevitability) the crack down will begin.

 

Since the clock has already turned foreword to a time in the not so distant future lets take a look at the state of things Bioware has released a major content patch and squashed most game breaking and annoying bugs. The forums and general chat have thus calmed down and now you have gotten to know several folks on your server. You have added some to your friends's list and when they get on you ask them if they want to run FPs because you know they are a good and mannered played. Then there is a guy named Baddy of the McBadBad Legacy who you know is rude and a ninja. You decide that his rein of terror must end. So you go to the server forum and limk screenshots of the guy being bad. Other post similar screenshots and suddenly everyone begins to learn that McBadBad is a bad player. No one groups with him so he has two options: Reroll and hide his legacy name, or switch servers.

 

"That is a fairy tale. That doesn't happen." It used to.

 

Which transitions us into Point Three: Wrath LFG Killed Server Communities in WoW

 

Back when server communities were still alive in WoW this happened all the time. Why? because people took pride in their server. Some still cling on to the pride of old but most don't care about their individual servers, and why should they? Now that I can PVP and PVE with people from other servers it is like we are all one big community! Although that could have been a positive it turned into a negative. Once people figured out they could abuse people on other servers and get away with it they did, in increasing numbers.

 

"I want to see these numbers."

 

Again I apologize because I don't have said numbers. Many people probably used the Wrath LFG tool and never encountered anything I have said up until this point. But from looking through WoW's forums and hearing the experiences of RL friends and guildies I believe this was a common theme caused by the Wrath looking for group tool which only grew stronger in Cata.

 

Point Four: Gear Score Should Not Infect ToR

 

Although implemented with good intentions, to kindly let people know that they need to work on their gear because the dungeon will kick their behind, it turned into an Elitists' wet dream. Now they could kick scrubs without even inspecting them but just having their helpful little addon tell them the player sucks. People posted Gear restrictions for everything and for the casual player it was hard to join a group...which Blizzard thought they could fix by making the Tier below the current easily accessible once you could run dailies...but in reality succeed only in killing previous content.

 

"Your opinion is showing again."

 

Anyone that played Wrath near the end knows this to be fact and not opinion. Naxx, Sath, Maly and Uld were dead at the end and TotC was on life support. The exception being that people still ran them for mounts on a blue moon.

 

I am getting off topic though. I could make an entire post about how WoW's loot system only shot Blizzard in the foot. So lets move on.

 

In a nutshell, all gear score breeds is elitism. WoW was fine before it and would be a better place without. It can stay away from ToR.

 

Point Five: Que Pops Interrupting Questing and Other Activities

 

By this I mean that teleporting to an instance is a double bladed sword. On one hand you immediately arrive at the instance. Awesome! On the other if the que pops when you are about to finish a quest or in the middle of a dialogue than it could be annoying. If you weren't teleported when you accept the group invitation you could quickly finish up your business and jog over to the nearest FP shuttle, almost every planet has one, and arrive at the fleet in a still timely manner.

 

In conclusion automatic teleporting isn't a necessity thanks to the already built in FP Shuttles, and if you still fly to the fleet on later planets you should really think about taking the shuttle for that purpose too. However I believe it should be an option because some people are demanding instant teleportation. Make it a check box in the new LFD/LFG tool and problem solved.

 

"Alright. You have stated a few reasons behind you opinion. Tell us then. What would you have the new LFG/LFD tool be?"

 

I'm glad you asked! Remember how I said there was a LFG tool in BC that was scrapped and many people don't even remember it existed? Well some people like myself and Manathayria do.

 

No, they're not, unless you can give solid numbers, this is a strawman argument. Stop it. Unlike the last incarnation of the LFD tool which had people using trade to form groups and only using the tool to Q on the side, people are going out to do content while Qed.... instead of sitting in town. Also, reffer to above post on my personal experience in wow.

 

However my experience with it was much different than his. I used the BC LFG tool all the time and easily found groups. Again different people have different experiences.

 

"How is copying WoW's old LFG system better than its current one?"

 

I never said to copy it. I said to use the model. One key component that jumps out at me that was scrapped in the current system was that it was a LFG tool, not a LFD tool. You could also look for groups for heroic quests! This is a key feature for this game because although the demand for a LFG tool in this game comes from the hate of long times looking for a FP, people also spend a lot of time looking for heroic quest groups.

 

So What Would This New Better LFG Feature Entail?

 

It would be a server wide que, eliminating the main current issue of not being able to look for people universally across the server. You would no longer have to sit at the fleet looking for a group and people who have left a planet but are still looking to heroics on it (I have seen several people on the fleet looking for people to do heroic quests) can que up. A universal channel is just an altogether bad idea, the Return of Barrens Chat.

 

Which leads me into a key difference from the original WoW model, the LFD and LFG components should be separated. For those of you that didn't experience this tool. You could only que up for three things with the top being your first choice and the bottom being your third choice. You put heroic quests and dungeons on the same que list.

 

For ToR I would still have a top 3, perhaps even a top 5, list of what you wanted to run on a Flash Point Tab. I would also include an All checkbox that would just take you to the que that needs you most. On that point I would take an element from the current WoW system which is the ability to declare your role on the Flash Point tab. Thus meaning if you selected All, you would be put to the dungeon group that has been waiting the longest for your role! This would be a vast improvement over the random selection that is WoW's dungeon que.

 

As stated above I would make automatically teleporting to the Flash Point an option. This would make both groups, those who want it and those who don't, happy and remove the issue of having the que pop while fighting an elite mob and having to leave or be forced to re-que all over again.

 

On to the issue of sever vs. cross server...I firmly believe that it should be server only and that cross server ques should only be used as a last resort. The game is still growing and the general population is still only around levels 20-30. Give it some time. If this system were to be implemented months from now and ques were still really bad then I would be a proponent of making cross server an option but nothing mandatory.

 

On to the other component of this better LFG tool, the heroic quest tab!

 

On the tab there would be a planet list where you could select the planet where you heroic quest is at (the ability to pick multiple planets to que for could be a possibility but I'm going to keep it simple for now). There would be a sub tab where you could select the heroic quests you wished to do (the ones you haven't discovered yet/aren't eligible for yet could be grayed out/blocked out/have a lock symbol over them) and you que up!

 

Just like the LFFP tab (beter start using the ToR term! ) there would be an All and role check boxes to speed up ques. I wouldn't include the option to teleport on this tab because there isn't really a need and cross server wouldn't be an option obviously (unless free character moves were implemented XD).

 

To conclude this post I will say this, a LFG tool is needed, but a copy and paste of WoW's is just not a good idea. I believe my version would address the issues players are having while not making one group angry and the other happy.

 

I look foreword to constructive feedback on my ideas.

Thanks for reading.

Edited February 1, 2012 by BigGun

[Touchbass]

Hey all,

 

I just posted a new thread on this issue...and kind of feeling I should have just put it here instead. It is a wall of text, thanks to years of bottled up feelings about WoW's current system, so I felt that I would put it in its own thread. There is a lot of intelligent and well thought out discussion happening in this thread though making me feel like it would be better suited in here. Check out it and tell me what you think.

 

BigGun

 

Hello BigGun, please post your thoughts in here, a lot of us would love to read it. I'm going to sleep now but if you post it, I'll read it and give you a reply by the morning. Happy gaming

[BlueSkittles]

Hey all,

 

I just posted a new thread on this issue...and kind of feeling I should have just put it here instead. It is a wall of text, thanks to years of bottled up feelings about WoW's current system, so I felt that I would put it in its own thread. There is a lot of intelligent and well thought out discussion happening in this thread though making me feel like it would be better suited in here. Check out it and tell me what you think.

 

BigGun

 

Welcome to the cluster-**** that is LFD/LFG. Bioware might close out your new thread so feel free to re-post it here. We look forward to all views, both for and against a new LFG/LFD. But be prepared to be taken to town for claiming falsehoods and/or for being a tool.

 

Fell free to i would be honored!

Been playing hard today and need to do some reading here the thread has really moved!

 

Good to know someone is still playing the game and not just watching these boards. And thanks! Already copied it earlier (was too good to leave it lost in the mass of posts).

[Touchbass]

/wave Blue

 

Btw where the heck is Aeon, who let him have a day off?

 

/night forum

[BlueSkittles]

/wave Blue

 

Btw where the heck is Aeon, who let him have a day off?

 

/night forum

 

Holy **** I totally forgot about Aeon (look how much of a douche I am). lol Yeah, where is the whipdriver? We need all of our pro-LFD peeps here everyday, all day. No exceptions. (Though others have sure taken over our side quite adequately, looking at you Neil, Ethern, Malign and Mana)

 

/goodnight Touch

[MalignX]

Holy **** I totally forgot about Aeon (look how much of a douche I am). lol Yeah, where is the whipdriver? We need all of our pro-LFD peeps here everyday, all day. No exceptions. (Though others have sure taken over our side quite adequately, looking at you Neil, Ethern, Malign and Mana)

 

/goodnight Touch

 

I skipped straight to this as the last page seemed to be dealing with whatevertheirname was.

 

Gonna read BigGun's post now.

[BlueSkittles]

Yes I am confident that they try to make a better tool than wow has. If they just add the wow tool, then the people who left wow because of it might leave and those that just are on vacation from wow will go anyways.

All the recent MMO´s made that mistake, so I am guessing they learned from those.

 

Part of why I'm thinking they should add something that encourages guild/friend groups... I know it's not a full solution, but server-only queues might benefit from this - even x-server would. Someone that maybe sees the notice that you get rewards for grouping with friends may ask if at the start of the run they can friend someone - if they have a good run they might look those people up again later.

 

Thank you both RachelAnne and Manathayria. You both bring up great points for the "opposition". I would address each but my brain is currently hurting so I just wanted to at least say thank you for responding and that it seems we're all trying to help Bioware come up with the best possible solution for all parties involved.

 

And holy *********** **** BigGun, that is most definitely a "wall of text". As I just said above, I would address it but brain=hurty. Still glad you posted it and hopefully others will get on the creative responses post-haste.

[MalignX]

Hey all,

 

I just posted a new thread on this issue...and kind of feeling I should have just put it here instead. It is a wall of text, thanks to years of bottled up feelings about WoW's current system, so I felt that I would put it in its own thread. There is a lot of intelligent and well thought out discussion happening in this thread though making me feel like it would be better suited in here. Check out it and tell me what you think.

 

BigGun

 

Edit: Yeah I decided to move it. I'm so tired after writing it, I don't know why I put it in its own thread. XD

 

I read it, and don't vehemently disagree with any particular point. The curtails and refines you've stated that you'd like to see, I generally like. Color me so relieved not to have to read another "**** Lazy Cazuuls stop being so fail. If you get a RDF (LFFP) then I'm quiting and all my friends are too! This is the worst thing ever! Blah blah blah"(Hooray for /ignore on forums), I could kiss you.

Edited February 1, 2012 by MalignX

[Manathayria]

What you said here sounds a lot like the "anti-LFD" crowd. Not in a bad way, just it seems like the FFXI system you are describing is how they want the system to work.

 

"you could usually flag up and run anything without having to sit in town." Like how the "anti-LFD" say in WoW everyone sat in town. Maybe they were playing FFXI and they never saw people just waiting in town. So when they saw that in WoW they thought "how stupid, there should be groups being put together and accomplishing quests."

 

I'm totally overgeneralizing based on your examples but the similarities are uncanny.

 

I think they actually expected it to work like the FFXI system did when I was playing (and believe it still does). Remember I don't really care for x-server, but I don't have too many issues with it being put into play. Though I would prefer seeing options with it and things that encourage community... It won't hurt me if they do 'just' x-server since I'll be looking into guilds more at that point, but it will help me with LFG a bit till I find one that suits me. As with WoW, if they do x-server, I'll use it to augment my play, and refuse to let it run how I do things/group.

 

The difference is, as I pointed out, we - the NA populace, stepped into a system that was already in use and had people that ever-so politely pointed it out in the little english they knew - or with the auto translate device (which was sometimes very, very difficult to use to point something out).

 

Stepping back into it a few months ago, it (the LFD system) felt very dated and had me running to friends list and linkshells(essentially guilds - though you could be in multiple ones at once). I used it, but it pointed to the flaw that a well geared player going back into the game was lost without their support systems, and it was very easy to fall back out of the game since my friends were higher level and generally busy with new content and well... I wasn't able to get to them yet. There is a big difference between a player being able to drop back to old content, and feeling like doing it.

 

A new player starting into the game would likely hit this flaw and Valkrum dunes (first group leveling area) and give up by level 20 if they didn't find a very good run of it. 'sub jobs' were something that flagged you as a newbie too - if you had an under-level one, or didn't have one, we immediately knew you were new to the game, and generally you got excluded from groups until you were last pick. You didn't get your advanced jobs till 30, but I think sub jobs were 20.... so it was a long haul up unless someone took pity on you. The Sub Jobs were... interesting. Your SJ was always half of what your main was, so if you wanted to play a WHM (healer) you had to get either BM or RDM up enough to not 'show' as your secondary job being under level... and if you wanted to level and advance job, you had to do that with both your original jobs so they don't show, and if your advance job 'requires' a different SJ than your original two... you had to level that too. You only had your main and sub job showing at one time and the sub was always half of what your main was, so you never had to get it as far but still... it could become a lot of work. FFXI actually lost a lot of people early on because of what I posted above. Not to mention the loss of exp/levels if you had a bad streak.

 

I believe the big things that push the system they're using (which is close to FFXI's) to failure are:

 

1. It's not obvious,

2. the current MMO players like being able to put in the CDs, install, begin play. No reading manual needed. I never had to read the manual for Warhammer, or WoW, or Rift, or DDO... so why should I need to read up on how grouping in this game works, right?

 

A system no one uses because there's no one herding them into it and instructing them on how to use it is a failure. It doesn't matter that it worked (and worked well) in FFXI, what matters is that it is not working here.

 

It is likely a good point to make that FFXI is a Japanese game - many of the games they produce hit more on working for what you have and focus more on community being huge. It is a cultural thing that's woven into their games. We (the North American/western gamers) are generally ignored if we complain that something is too hard, but if they complain - you see a patch within a day nerfing down whatever it was.

 

Oh, anyone not familiar with DDO's system - they have a LFG interface that displays the quest you want, level range, and who's in the group and lets you pick the jobs you want to join you. They also let you pick and choose which classes are shown as 'needed' which lets it filter who sees it (though the people being 'filtered' can turn it so they can see anything they're not eligible for). We frequently put up warnings in the 'comments' it allows that state it's a 'zerg' run, or 'all optionals' etc. I've half been wondering if they're looking at a system similar to that for the one they're developing now since it mentions flash points AND heroics using it.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Manathayria

[BigGun]

I read it, and don't vehemently disagree with any particular point. The curtails and refines you've stated that you'd like to see, I generally like. Color me so relieved not to have to read another "**** Lazy Cazuuls stop being so fail. If you get a RDF (LFFP) then I'm quiting and all my friends are too! This is the worst thing ever! Blah blah blah"(Hooray for /ignore on forums), I could kiss you.

 

You don't have to kiss me, I don't think my girlfriend would appreciate that. XD

 

I'm just stating what I believe. Anyone who thinks that this game can survive without a LFFP tool is only being a troll. I'm enjoying the feedback already especially in the original thread, the poster is a regular of this thread I believe, http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=257619.

 

In any case the trolls can troll as much as they want but no one likes running in circles in the fleet spamming "LF 1 DPS Maelstrom" for 3 hours.

[MalignX]

You don't have to kiss me, I don't think my girlfriend would appreciate that. XD

 

I'm just stating what I believe. Anyone who thinks that this game can survive without a LFFP tool is only being a troll. I'm enjoying the feedback already especially in the original thread, the poster is a regular of this thread I believe, http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=257619.

 

In any case the trolls can troll as much as they want but no one likes running in circles in the fleet spamming "LF 1 DPS Maelstrom" for 3 hours.

 

Agreed, Sir. You are a welcome addition to this discussion. I even gave your argument some front page love.

Edited February 1, 2012 by MalignX

[BigGun]

Agreed, Sir. You are a welcome addition to this discussion. I even gave your argument some front page love.

 

Why thank you very much! I want this game to succeed and not make the same mistakes as its predecessors. Long live ToR!

Edited February 1, 2012 by BigGun

[Manathayria]

Point Four: Gear Score Should Not Infect ToR

 

Although implemented with good intentions, to kindly let people know that they need to work on their gear because the dungeon will kick their behind, it turned into an Elitists' wet dream. Now they could kick scrubs without even inspecting them but just having their helpful little addon tell them the player sucks. People posted Gear restrictions for everything and for the casual player it was hard to join a group...which Blizzard thought they could fix by making the Tier below the current easily accessible once you could run dailies...but in reality succeed only in killing previous content.

I actually used gearscore off and on. Partly to see how I stacked up vs my group, and partly as a healer or tank to see if I was likely to have issues keeping someone up/if they'd have issues keeping me up. This only really decided if I had to start using flasks for the run or not, I refused to kick based on it unless we actually did hit a point where the person that was just starting off couldn't do their job. (Couldn't do a job/isn't geared enough for an instance isn't the same as being kicked for not being full epiced.)

 

The issue isn't always the tool, it's the tools abusing the tool that made it undesirable.

 

"Your opinion is showing again."

 

Anyone that played Wrath near the end knows this to be fact and not opinion. Naxx, Sath, Maly and Uld were dead at the end and TotC was on life support. The exception being that people still ran them for mounts on a blue moon.

Truth that those were dead - but they were dead for not having 'useful' gear... they scaled the gear right, but they almost needed to go back and re-visit/strengthen the old gear and make those fights harder since you could hit raid gear levels for current-content without them. Essentially, they fixed the issues with people getting stuck in first tier raiding once they hit max level if they came into the game late, but they didn't fix phasing the old raids out which meant new people didn't really see the older raids.

 

Point Five: Que Pops Interrupting Questing and Other Activities

 

By this I mean that teleporting to an instance is a double bladed sword. On one hand you immediately arrive at the instance. Awesome! On the other if the que pops when you are about to finish a quest or in the middle of a dialogue than it could be annoying. If you weren't teleported when you accept the group invitation you could quickly finish up your business and jog over to the nearest FP shuttle, almost every planet has one, and arrive at the fleet in a still timely manner.

 

In conclusion automatic teleporting isn't a necessity thanks to the already built in FP Shuttles, and if you still fly to the fleet on later planets you should really think about taking the shuttle for that purpose too. However I believe it should be an option because some people are demanding instant teleportation. Make it a check box in the new LFD/LFG tool and problem solved.

I think the only reason for teleportation is because people will decide to hit quests and things along the way to a heroic or on their way back to the FP. I know the majority aren't likely to, but you will have some that feel their role is 'vital' enough that they can do it. Mind you... reducing CD on the emergency fleet pass to 1hr would solve this issue to a point. That combined with the 30min port would discourage the behavior a little by making it easier to get back.

 

"Alright. You have stated a few reasons behind you opinion. Tell us then. What would you have the new LFG/LFD tool be?"

 

I'm glad you asked! Remember how I said there was a LFG tool in BC that was scrapped and many people don't even remember it existed? Well some people like myself and Manathayria do.

 

However my experience with it was much different than his. I used the BC LFG tool all the time and easily found groups. Again different people have different experiences.

I actually hit trade only occasionally (when H Magister's Terrace was a pain) Usually I just waited for pops while exploring/questing. But I skipped around a lot and sometimes did the /trade lfg just to speed things up.

 

"How is copying WoW's old LFG system better than its current one?"

 

I never said to copy it. I said to use the model. One key component that jumps out at me that was scrapped in the current system was that it was a LFG tool, not a LFD tool. You could also look for groups for heroic quests! This is a key feature for this game because although the demand for a LFG tool in this game comes from the hate of long times looking for a FP, people also spend a lot of time looking for heroic quest groups.

 

So What Would This New Better LFG Feature Entail?

 

It would be a server wide que, eliminating the main current issue of not being able to look for people universally across the server. You would no longer have to sit at the fleet looking for a group and people who have left a planet but are still looking to heroics on it (I have seen several people on the fleet looking for people to do heroic quests) can que up. A universal channel is just an altogether bad idea, the Return of Barrens Chat.

I remember the server wide chat being used in an attack on the servers to force a crash as well. They flooded all channels to take the servers down... the LFG tool actually worked very well, but I remember people not using it for group quests as much - usually it was local chat we hit since no one wanted to give up the heroic queues at max level due to lock outs and how many we had.

 

Which leads me into a key difference from the original WoW model, the LFD and LFG components should be separated. For those of you that didn't experience this tool. You could only que up for three things with the top being your first choice and the bottom being your third choice. You put heroic quests and dungeons on the same que list.

 

For ToR I would still have a top 3, perhaps even a top 5, list of what you wanted to run on a Flash Point Tab. I would also include an All checkbox that would just take you to the que that needs you most. On that point I would take an element from the current WoW system which is the ability to declare your role on the Flash Point tab. Thus meaning if you selected All, you would be put to the dungeon group that has been waiting the longest for your role! This would be a vast improvement over the random selection that is WoW's dungeon que.

 

As stated above I would make automatically teleporting to the Flash Point an option. This would make both groups, those who want it and those who don't, happy and remove the issue of having the que pop while fighting an elite mob and having to leave or be forced to re-que all over again.

I could see putting in a tool that would allow you to accept (with the auto port) but not have the port work while in combat or conversation. This would allow you to finish what you're doing, port you back to where you were when you're done, but not make you drop/reque. A group shouldn't have to wait for you to finish a mini-instance for a quest, but on that same note, they shouldn't care about letting you finish one fight and then porting to the instance manually using the LFG tool.

 

On to the issue of sever vs. cross server...I firmly believe that it should be server only and that cross server ques should only be used as a last resort. The game is still growing and the general population is still only around levels 20-30. Give it some time. If this system were to be implemented months from now and ques were still really bad then I would be a proponent of making cross server an option but nothing mandatory.

100% agree.

 

On to the other component of this better LFG tool, the heroic quest tab!

 

On the tab there would be a planet list where you could select the planet where you heroic quest is at (the ability to pick multiple planets to que for could be a possibility but I'm going to keep it simple for now). There would be a sub tab where you could select the heroic quests you wished to do (the ones you haven't discovered yet/aren't eligible for yet could be grayed out/blocked out/have a lock symbol over them) and you que up!

 

Just like the LFFP tab (beter start using the ToR term! ) there would be an All and role check boxes to speed up ques. I wouldn't include the option to teleport on this tab because there isn't really a need and cross server wouldn't be an option obviously (unless free character moves were implemented XD).

 

To conclude this post I will say this, a LFG tool is needed, but a copy and paste of WoW's is just not a good idea. I believe my version would address the issues players are having while not making one group angry and the other happy.

 

I look foreword to constructive feedback on my ideas.

Thanks for reading.

I think tools to encourage friend/guild groups would be a good idea as I mentioned before.

 

I actually believe the biggest reason the BC LFG tool for wow was scrapped wasn't so much because of people using /trade, I think it was actually us complaining about lockouts. I might end up in a group with 3 other people that want to keep running HM, however, each of us has different dungeon timers. We couldn't q for random - which meant if we were too spread out on lock outs we had to disband as it all had to be specific queue or nothing. I didn't hit the issue too much, but when you did it was always later in the day. Randoms bypass the lock (though they also put it into place) specific q you're looking at whatever specific dungeons you did being locked + any limitations from other people's locks... which is why a random on top of specific may be a good addition.

 

With x-server... rift actually put in the free server transfers - you could only use it once every 7 days, but it was there. Right down to an entire guild being able to make the move - bank and all - to another server. Anyone that was in the guild would get the notice that it was done and told which server - and upon transferring servers they would be put back into the guild that had been moved. The issue I saw was, no x-server friends list, if we end up with x-server I want both the free transfers and the x-server friends lists. I doubt I'll get the first because of micro transactions, but we might get the second.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Manathayria