LogicalPremise Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 OP, you have literally no idea what you are talking about. End game craftable gear needs to be under instance and high lvl pvp rewards. No question. The game isnt about crafting, nor should it be. Gonna ask you the same question Why can't PvP gear = Crafted gear = Raid gear in quality? Why FORCE people to participate in something they don't want to, be that PvP, raiding, or crafting? How does it belittle me if I'm in gear I got from grinding to 100 Valor, and you're in gear you got from beating NM Soa, and that guy is in gear he got from spending sixty gazillion credits and 30 gazllion RE's to craft? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brickabrack Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Maybe a BioWare rep can comment on this aspect of game design. (doubt it though lol) the reason PvP gear works so well is because it's contained within PvP; it's used for PvP situations that don't always apply for PvE situations. Thus PvP and Raid gear can both be "the" best in their respective fields and be in harmony. You can still use the gear you find in each and apply it to the other, but it wouldn't be the ideal set to use. Crafting throws a monkey wrench into this system, because unlike the situation with the other two, to elevate crafting would result in trivializing one or both of the others. it would if you just generalized it anyway. However, there can be a compromise. I've long held that the best way to compromise with this would be to simply add item slots to the character sheet. Sort of like the relic slots or implant slot. Give people 2 Crafting slots. Only crafting items allowed in those slot. Let crafting be the best in its own way without infringing on the other ways to get gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BegaTasty Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) I loved DAOC. Hell I even loved Trials which some old DAOCers would probably burn me at the stake for saying. herratik!!! NONE loved TOA (DOA) as many of us called it... Dead on arrival lol what beats me is when you tell these people, that gear should "just be gear" they go into a complete tyrade on jsut how wrong you are. "There has to be raid gear, there has to be pvp gear or els the world will end. When you explain to them that this silly infantile idea was just a wow thing. That MMos were always gear, an not a distinction between them... they gfo mental an have a block in place that stops them from ever grasping the idea. Only reason DAOC even did raid gear separate from the other stuff is because it was painful to do, so they gave the raid stuff a visual look to make it stand out from everything els. Edited January 27, 2012 by BegaTasty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HileyQuiggley Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 OP, you have literally no idea what you are talking about. End game craftable gear needs to be under instance and high lvl pvp rewards. No question. The game isnt about crafting, nor should it be. Ive only been playing these things for 10 years, forgot what they are called since I dont know what im talking about. Just get rid of crafted gear all together then. My bad Sir please ignore anything you ever see me post again. Really, please do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 250k, 10 years ago wasnt alot? It was a hell of alot. The servers where packed if you ever played then. Hell even now with the 5k the 1 server holds them all and there are people everywhere on the 3 realms. Straight downhill? I guess in a way yes but WoW is the same and so is every other game. When it gets old it goes downhill. When you hit 80 years old, your body will not be like it was at 20. Im tired of defending DAoC, I quit that game. You just simply dont understand it I guess. DAoC is actually a great success, far from a failure. It wasnt old when its player base was half of what it was before. I can agree on that 250k at that time was a lot but seems like players got bored of the greatest MMO ever created, pretty fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Gonna ask you the same question Why can't PvP gear = Crafted gear = Raid gear in quality? Why FORCE people to participate in something they don't want to, be that PvP, raiding, or crafting? How does it belittle me if I'm in gear I got from grinding to 100 Valor, and you're in gear you got from beating NM Soa, and that guy is in gear he got from spending sixty gazillion credits and 30 gazllion RE's to craft? Becasue this is an MMORPG and it awrds the people that does things in groups just like any other game of this genre. Its main philosophy of these games and will be in future also. IF you dont want to participate in group activities, be it PvP or Pve, you get awarded with leftouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BegaTasty Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 It wasnt old when its player base was half of what it was before. I can agree on that 250k at that time was a lot but seems like players got bored of the greatest MMO ever created, pretty fast. Not at all,it wasn't fast at all, It ran into troubles when wow came out, Mythic tried to turn the game into a more mainstream MMO (MMos were NOT mainstream back then). Player bases were older, more mature an the community's reflected that. When TOA came out, the hardcore players mostly quit in protest. Imagine going from EVE Online to.....tor for instance You go from the hardest most self responsibility game in MMO creation, to having everything handed to you just for logging in..... that is what happened to DAOC. an many of us resented it after all our years playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HileyQuiggley Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 It wasnt old when its player base was half of what it was before. I can agree on that 250k at that time was a lot but seems like players got bored of the greatest MMO ever created, pretty fast. Not all true. You have to take into consideration how many games have come out within a 10 year span. Your gonna lose subs. After 2 years the game still had a great amount of players, I was there. It was after ToA then after Cata that people got mad. But alot still stayed. After WoW came out people left, after AoC, and WAR and every other game people left. So after 10 years its down to 5k players. The game doesnt advertise, you see it everywhere that DAoC has the best PvP system. I only left because after 10 years I feel I have beat the game. Played every class, every realm, every server type. High rr's, every raid etc etc. Games get old to people. How many still play R6V on Xbox? Not many, they play CoD or BF now because the other is old. Just an example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalexkhan Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I just want crafting to be more relevant in some way shape or form. Their should be some end game incentives to be a crafter beyond market control of 49 and below gear. I think everyone can level with me and agree on that much. How bioware should go about doing it? That's a whole other thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Not all true. You have to take into consideration how many games have come out within a 10 year span. Your gonna lose subs. After 2 years the game still had a great amount of players, I was there. It was after ToA then after Cata that people got mad. But alot still stayed. After WoW came out people left, after AoC, and WAR and every other game people left. So after 10 years its down to 5k players. The game doesnt advertise, you see it everywhere that DAoC has the best PvP system. I only left because after 10 years I feel I have beat the game. Played every class, every realm, every server type. High rr's, every raid etc etc. Games get old to people. How many still play R6V on Xbox? Not many, they play CoD or BF now because the other is old. Just an example. Best PvP system world PvP wise, but as you can see, people aint very interested in world PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tic- Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) Thats why it failed hard. Hardly, DAoC was a very popular game for its time. I enjoyed it quite a bit actually. Edited January 27, 2012 by Tic- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HileyQuiggley Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 I just want crafting to be more relevant in some way shape or form. Their should be some end game incentives to be a crafter beyond market control of 49 and below gear. I think everyone can level with me and agree on that much. How bioware should go about doing it? That's a whole other thread. Basically all I want. Something to even the playing field a little. Would prefer my suggestion but anything to improve crafting. Hell im not even a crafter. Im 28 into Armortech, 400 into scav and 400 into treasure hunting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Hardly, DAoC was a very popular game for its time. I enjoyed it quite a bit actually. It was, for a short period of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irishay Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 It's too bad crafting systems in recent games has been such an afterthought. I love crafting, and to continue on you better love it too. Unless you get intrinsic value from it, you will be sorely disappointed trying to craft your way to better gear come end-game. That said, crafted gear doesn't have to be just BiS or just entry level gear (which is usually the case). Like a previous poster mentioned, make 1-2 slots from each AC a crafted BiS item. Any more than that you risk diminishing the efforts of raiding and PVP, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HileyQuiggley Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 It was, for a short period of time. lol, yeah only 7 years or so and the people they play now off and on. Did you ever play the game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elooie Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I say they just take everything to the Nth degree... All the best gear is crafted.. And half the mats have to be found raiding and the other half are found in PVP... That metal you found off that droid boss can only be fused by the blood of imperials! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 lol, yeah only 7 years or so and the people they play now off and on. Did you ever play the game? it lost over half of its players in 3 years. And no, but few friends did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HileyQuiggley Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 I say they just take everything to the Nth degree... All the best gear is crafted.. And half the mats have to be found raiding and the other half are found in PVP... That metal you found off that droid boss can only be fused by the blood of imperials! I actually like this idea, sarcastic or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calsidian Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I didn't read the whole thread, so pardon me if this has already been mentioned. The only way I can think to truly make end game crafting viable is if the system was setup in such a way that it provided a bonus to existing gear that can only be achieved through crafting. For example, gear would have a special mod slot that can only used crafted mods (used for illustration, could be an entirely new system) installed by the crafter. Each major tradeskill would have it's own unique type of mod(s) that it could create. The mods would be BoP to the crafter, but that crafter could install the mod into gear for another player via something like a trade window (just an example, several ways to actually achieve this). So you still need to raid/PvP/whatever to get the best gear, and you need a crafter to improve that gear (for a price if they choose) to ultimately make it BiS. Symbiotic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zocat Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) Gonna ask you the same question Why can't PvP gear = Crafted gear = Raid gear in quality? Why FORCE people to participate in something they don't want to, be that PvP, raiding, or crafting? Do you really not get it? It's very simple: People would just stop raiding / pvping. There are a lot of people who only participate in those activities because of the loot. And they are in the same groups / guilds with people who enjoy the challenge in raiding / pvping itself. And all those groups / guilds would fall apart if the best gear could be acquired from somewhere else. Would people visit operations? Yes. But how many times? And also in HM/NM? Not as much as today I'd say. BW would have to introduce much more content (which isnt just the same instance with different numbers) compared to now. You cannot give the best gear to people via something "trivial" (asuming it's not bind on acquire) like crafting in a game where the whole endgame content is based upon "Please do flashpoints / operations / warzones". Edited January 27, 2012 by Zocat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tic- Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) It was, for a short period of time. You'll have to define "failed hard" then. It was very popular, and is still around some 12 years later. Does your failed hard mean it didn't make its money back, couldn't hold subscribers, didn't make a decent profit, or is it possibe that you never played it, or personally didnt like it? Edited January 27, 2012 by Tic- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HileyQuiggley Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 it lost over half of its players in 3 years. And no, but few friends did. You didnt even play and you know all these things about it. I played for 10 years, quitting briefly for other games. Tried WoW, tried AoC, WAR, SWG. I had fun on other games but the PvP was always lacking. I love the PvP in this game, its just the gear. If you never played the game you wouldnt undertsand how people feel about it. Sure it had 250k at peak but millions have played it through the years. Its not huge on PvE although you have to PvE for certain items. Its end game PvP is untouched by anything else that has come out yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicalPremise Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Do you really not get it? It's very simple: People would just stop raiding / pvping. There are a lot of people who only participate in those activities because of the loot. And they are in the same groups / guilds with people who enjoy the challenge in raiding / pvping itself. And all those groups / guilds would fall apart if the best gear could be acquired from somewhere else. Would people visit operations? Yes. But how many times? And also in HM/NM? Not as much as today I'd say. BW would have to introduce much more content (which isnt just the same instance with different numbers) compared to know. You cannot give the best gear to people via something "trivial" (asuming it's not bind on acquire) like crafting in a game where the whole endgame content is based upon "Please do flashpoints / operations / warzones". Nope, not buying that argument. Crafting sucks, regardless of how it's implemented. Make the top crafted stuff that is equivilent to PvP /raid gear bind on create so they can't sell it. For me, I'll raid regardless. I'll PvP regardless. I value those modes of end-game content because they are fun, not because I'm chasing a digital piece of armor. Where else are you going to USE such high end gear except in PVP or raids, anyway? There's certainly no questing you can do at 50 except daillies, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elooie Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I actually like this idea, sarcastic or not Half kidding.. half suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 You'll have to define "failed hard" then. It was very popular, and is still around some 12 years later. Does your failed hard mean it didn't make its money back, couldn't hold subscribers, didn't make a decent profit, or is it possibe that you never played it, or personally didnt like it? Failed hard means in my book that if game of this genre loses over haf of its players in 3 years time span. What coems to part what it is now, im sure there is less than 5k people playing lots of other "greates" games of all times also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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