A Universe At War - Ilum/Open World Redesign

[Apim]

people need to stop whining here and support this post to stay up top!!!!

[Covent]

I applaud the effort and it sounds fun (which is why a lot of people are responding so positively), but I think we all need a little perspective about the scale of what you're proposing.

 

Essentially what you suggest (which again is an interesting concept) is an entirely new MMO and the time and resources it would realistically take to create, code, write, balance, etc. all of this is unfeasible.

 

Again, I think this is a remarkable display of creativity and passion, and I applaud you for it, but short of a paid-for expansion, nothing like this will ever happen. If Ilum is going to change in the short (6mo-1yr) term, then they will have to make adjustments within the framework already established.

 

The game has a core architecture that cannot be radically changed at this point.

 

You can't simply clone a planet and make it into a PvP zone. Look at the development history of any good (or not so good) PvP map and you will see that they take a significant amount of time to develop, test, balance, and fix, and fix, and fix.

 

And that's just one of the many areas where Bioware would have to spend time and money if they were to try anything like this.

 

It's a beautiful dream, but it's never going to happen in this game.

 

We can but hope that changes are made or, its just a case of moving onto another MMO.

[Marksism]

/Signed. The scale of what you propose is very large, however I'm sure everyone just wants OWpvp to succeed in tor. Afterall which triple A mmo is going to attempt any kind of meaningful world pvp in the near future? And more importantly how many of them involve lightsabers

[nallard]

We can but hope that changes are made or, its just a case of moving onto another MMO.

 

I'm sure they're going to make changes, and given the history of Bioware games, I'm sure those changes will be well thought out and positive in aggregate.

 

If you're looking for something as radical as what the OP suggests, then you don't really want this game. It's unrealistic in the extreme.

 

He's not suggesting more warzones, or big tweaks to the existing structure of Ilum, he's suggesting a complete redesign of core game mechanics.

 

If you want to hope for things, hope that the March content patch will give us more well-designed warzones, hope that in the next few months they will come up with solutions for making Ilum competetive and fun, hope that they don't overdo class teaks.

 

Otherwise, this isn't the game you're looking for.

[Aneu]

Wow...impressive

 

But I gotta ask...is that a Lion King background in your link?

 

Its ArcheAge actually - Looking at it now it does have a resemblance!

 

To those who say it will take a long time and is a huge undertaking. To impliment this on just Ilum for now would take a fraction of that time and much lower costs. Adding the rest into the game when it is done would be absolutely fine and dandy however the game needs something new added and soon!

 

(Please note that the front page time frames were only as a guide to Ilum only and the bare bones of this system without the entire planetary conflict system, simply base capture, aoe platforms and the balance mechanic in their most basic forms.)

Edited January 26, 2012 by Aneu

[BlackSpin]

I'm sure they're going to make changes, and given the history of Bioware games, I'm sure those changes will be well thought out and positive in aggregate.

 

If you're looking for something as radical as what the OP suggests, then you don't really want this game. It's unrealistic in the extreme.

 

He's not suggesting more warzones, or big tweaks to the existing structure of Ilum, he's suggesting a complete redesign of core game mechanics.

 

If you want to hope for things, hope that the March content patch will give us more well-designed warzones, hope that in the next few months they will come up with solutions for making Ilum competetive and fun, hope that they don't overdo class teaks.

 

Otherwise, this isn't the game you're looking for.

 

The changes that the OP suggests are not as radical as it seems. Sure, it would take time to implement, but other MMOs that EA currently own have this functionality in them already. Some of the developers even worked on these mentioned MMOs. They know how it should be done, but didn't do it.

[Covent]

I'm sure they're going to make changes, and given the history of Bioware games, I'm sure those changes will be well thought out and positive in aggregate.

 

If you're looking for something as radical as what the OP suggests, then you don't really want this game. It's unrealistic in the extreme.

 

He's not suggesting more warzones, or big tweaks to the existing structure of Ilum, he's suggesting a complete redesign of core game mechanics.

 

If you want to hope for things, hope that the March content patch will give us more well-designed warzones, hope that in the next few months they will come up with solutions for making Ilum competetive and fun, hope that they don't overdo class teaks.

 

Otherwise, this isn't the game you're looking for.

 

You may be right, but something needs to be done and fast to enrich pvp. You need to feel encompassed by the MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER online community in an MMO, as thats an aspect of why mmo's are played. Because at the moment its a very single single player game with little else. This initiative could be a start in the right direction. Anything less and SWTOR becomes a transit game for other upcomming MMO's.

 

Also, i certainly wont be resuscribing to a game touted to have alot of pvp but get some weak warzones..and a lagfest in an open environment. Not into wasting money on something that just doesnt give me what i am looking for nor am i into waiting 12 months for a glimmer of hope. To get some other crappy warzone or anything they come up with that isnt worthwhile.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Covent

[Chadwokie]

tbh the changes would not take the bulk of the time what should take the bulk of the time is proper testing....... to make sure we do not end up with the same mistakes made in current illum

[nallard]

Its ArcheAge actually

 

To those who say it will take a long time and is a huge undertaking. To impliment this on just Ilum for now would take a fraction of that time and much lower costs. Adding the rest into the game when it is done would be absolutely fine and dandy however the game needs something new added and soon!

 

(Please note that the front page time frames were only as a guide to Ilum only and the bare bones of this system without the entire planetary conflict system, simply base capture, aoe platforms and the balance mechanic in their most basic forms.)

 

I appreciate what you want, but you are underestimating the time it takes to implement even relatively minor changes. They can change small things like the output of a class ability in a couple of weeks, but what you're talking about (even restricted to Ilum) is more on the scale of 1.1. That took almost a year to make. They didn't need to create new art assets for it either. They had all the skins and models (maybe minus a couple) in the game already.

 

Additionally, this is a major corporation and a multimillion dollar project. They won't ever take major design suggestions from the forums. I'm not trying to be mean. It's obvious you've put a lot of time, and creative passion into this idea and I want you to have a realistic expectation of what they'll do. Every person who posts in the PvP forum could /sign this, and Bioware wouldn't implement any of this.

 

They have talented, creative people working at their studios. And those people are working on upcoming content as well as trying to fix content that isn't working properly.

 

If Ilum is fixable, they will come up with a solution, but the truth is that if it isn't, it's because of decisions made years ago, decisions that cannot be changed any more. There are fundamental design mechanics built into the structure of the game, and they can't take those out. The major problem with Ilum is faction imbalance, and that isn't something that can be changed at this point. That ship has long since sailed.

[Covent]

I appreciate what you want, but you are underestimating the time it takes to implement even relatively minor changes. They can change small things like the output of a class ability in a couple of weeks, but what you're talking about (even restricted to Ilum) is more on the scale of 1.1. That took almost a year to make. They didn't need to create new art assets for it either. They had all the skins and models (maybe minus a couple) in the game already.

 

Additionally, this is a major corporation and a multimillion dollar project. They won't ever take major design suggestions from the forums. I'm not trying to be mean. It's obvious you've put a lot of time, and creative passion into this idea and I want you to have a realistic expectation of what they'll do. Every person who posts in the PvP forum could /sign this, and Bioware wouldn't implement any of this.

 

They have talented, creative people working at their studios. And those people are working on upcoming content as well as trying to fix content that isn't working properly.

 

If Ilum is fixable, they will come up with a solution, but the truth is that if it isn't, it's because of decisions made years ago, decisions that cannot be changed any more. There are fundamental design mechanics built into the structure of the game, and they can't take those out. The major problem with Ilum is faction imbalance, and that isn't something that can be changed at this point. That ship has long since sailed.

 

With the loss of playerbase this game suffered since launch, they either implement changes fast and get Bioware SWTOR department doing overtime and working weekends, or the game flops harder and faster than Warhammer and they lose 75% of the department in several months and the game goes ftp. The situation IS that bad. Its no drama, its common sense. In an economy where you throw millions into making a game and it fails very badly at the basics, you better believe investors will be kicking arses.

[BlackSpin]

I appreciate what you want, but you are underestimating the time it takes to implement even relatively minor changes. They can change small things like the output of a class ability in a couple of weeks, but what you're talking about (even restricted to Ilum) is more on the scale of 1.1. That took almost a year to make. They didn't need to create new art assets for it either. They had all the skins and models (maybe minus a couple) in the game already.

 

Additionally, this is a major corporation and a multimillion dollar project. They won't ever take major design suggestions from the forums. I'm not trying to be mean. It's obvious you've put a lot of time, and creative passion into this idea and I want you to have a realistic expectation of what they'll do. Every person who posts in the PvP forum could /sign this, and Bioware wouldn't implement any of this.

 

They have talented, creative people working at their studios. And those people are working on upcoming content as well as trying to fix content that isn't working properly.

 

If Ilum is fixable, they will come up with a solution, but the truth is that if it isn't, it's because of decisions made years ago, decisions that cannot be changed any more. There are fundamental design mechanics built into the structure of the game, and they can't take those out. The major problem with Ilum is faction imbalance, and that isn't something that can be changed at this point. That ship has long since sailed.

 

 

I understand your point - but it all comes down to money, and that drives everything. If EA is bleeding subscriptions, you need something that will fix the leak. Something that will keep players around, because EA expects profit, and so do the stock holders. The biggest mistake BioWare could do is NOT listen to the community. Whether they will or not is left to be seen. But, I guarantee, if they don't it will be the slippery downfall of this game.

[Aneu]

I appreciate what you want, but you are underestimating the time it takes to implement even relatively minor changes. They can change small things like the output of a class ability in a couple of weeks, but what you're talking about (even restricted to Ilum) is more on the scale of 1.1. That took almost a year to make. They didn't need to create new art assets for it either. They had all the skins and models (maybe minus a couple) in the game already.

The entire change is quite large, I agree, new planets, new bases, and everything on top of it. The changes to Ilum alone are relatively easy to implement, as someone else has said, the hard part is when it comes to QA'ing the entire thing.

 

Considering I discussed those changes with a designer from Blizzard and someone who develops for Apple I am inclined to agree with their opinion in terms of programming it into the game which would be relatively easy, fixing the geofence to generate checks every second or so in order to ensure people can't leave with any buff will be more intensive on infrastructure than programming. Generating the buff alone is easy to do and those mechanics are already in the game.

 

The mechanics to make bases flip from one owner to another is also in the game from the turrets in the Alderaan warzone. Implementing the programming for a logo to appear on the galaxy map over Ilum with either Republic or Empire is also very simple to do in programming terms.

 

The biggest part of this process is the Quality Assurance and testing of it in its entirety.

 

Additionally, this is a major corporation and a multimillion dollar project. They won't ever take major design suggestions from the forums. I'm not trying to be mean. It's obvious you've put a lot of time, and creative passion into this idea and I want you to have a realistic expectation of what they'll do. Every person who posts in the PvP forum could /sign this, and Bioware wouldn't implement any of this.

 

Sadly this is why the state of the MMO market is how it is, luckily some companies are switching on to this and are listening to their players more, CCP for example.

 

They have talented, creative people working at their studios. And those people are working on upcoming content as well as trying to fix content that isn't working properly.

 

If Ilum is fixable, they will come up with a solution, but the truth is that if it isn't, it's because of decisions made years ago, decisions that cannot be changed any more. There are fundamental design mechanics built into the structure of the game, and they can't take those out. The major problem with Ilum is faction imbalance, and that isn't something that can be changed at this point. That ship has long since sailed.

 

I am very sorry you have this jaded approach to the MMO industry, while there are some bad applies in it there are also some very good companies that actually have the best interests of the game at heart and aren't against doing something innovative.

 

Their focus is on retaining their current base, if you know anything about retentions then you will know retaining current players is far easier and more cost effective than trying to get new people to subscribe, if everyone posted in this thread then you can bet they would change course instantly or face suicide. The MMO industry seem to be very much everything or nothing and you do touch on some very important issues however you are not in a better position than I am to say what is what could be and what can be

 

Your post is appreciated.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Aneu

[CrunchyGremlin]

whilst i agree there should be more of a incentive to win and hold these planets (i personaly like the idea of having pvp venders on certain bases or having a auction house that sells to both factions maybe even having rare resources on to farm) if you dont fight for the gear how else do you sugest people gain it?

 

hold a tea party and vote who makes the best lemon cakes?

 

 

how about only crafters with the right mats can make it.

 

But this is such a small vision.

 

Is gear really the only resource you can think of? You are not even fighting over gear. you are fighting to get gear. Shift your resource to something less selfish and more meaningful. What happens when you have all hte best gear? gonna whine at BW for more levels and better gear. tiresome.

 

WOW. go back to WOW.

 

Where did you get gear in daoc?

 

If you are looking for a problem in what im saying you will find it im sure.

 

If you are looking for better PvP than you had better learn more about history and why folks fight.

 

Please no GearWars..

[Covent]

how about only crafters with the right mats can make it.

 

But this is such a small vision.

 

Is gear really the only resource you can think of? You are not even fighting over gear. you are fighting to get gear. Shift your resource to something less selfish and more meaningful. What happens when you have all hte best gear? gonna whine at BW for more levels and better gear. tiresome.

 

WOW. go back to WOW.

 

Where did you get gear in daoc?

 

If you are looking for a problem in what im saying you will find it im sure.

 

If you are looking for better PvP than you had better learn more about history and why folks fight.

 

Please no GearWars..

 

I tell you what.. Go write up a way of getting this games pvp out the toilet and try and help rather than ***** at something you havent experienced in swtor or this innovative redesign. Because if Bioware dont do it, then EA will come down hard on these guys jobs in regards to future funding of projects. As the shareholders in EA will be chomping on the asses of bosses there.

[Chadwokie]

how about only crafters with the right mats can make it.

 

But this is such a small vision.

 

Is gear really the only resource you can think of? You are not even fighting over gear. you are fighting to get gear. Shift your resource to something less selfish and more meaningful. What happens when you have all hte best gear? gonna whine at BW for more levels and better gear. tiresome.

 

WOW. go back to WOW.

 

Where did you get gear in daoc?

 

If you are looking for a problem in what im saying you will find it im sure.

 

If you are looking for better PvP than you had better learn more about history and why folks fight.

 

Please no GearWars..

 

 

wow you have totaly missed my point i am actully agreeing with you there should be more incentive than gear.... i even offered some other incentives such as a cross faction galatic trade network or fighting over resources ...

 

resources that can be used for a multiple of things crafting consumables, gear, spaceship parts (which would be awsome in future adaptations of the game if they do bring out space combat)you could even use said resources to bolster the defences of structures you currently hold

 

look at real life wars/conflicts are started over resources or differing beliefs ....

 

imo if you give people something that they can fight over it they more than likely will

[nallard]

I understand your point - but it all comes down to money, and that drives everything. If EA is bleeding subscriptions, you need something that will fix the leak. Something that will keep players around, because EA expects profit, and so do the stock holders. The biggest mistake BioWare could do is NOT listen to the community. Whether they will or not is left to be seen. But, I guarantee, if they don't it will be the slippery downfall of this game.

 

I agree that it comes down to money, but companies as large as Bioware/EA are, by nature, very conservative. They're not going to throw more money at a project and significantly delay the development cycle of already planned features. They want a solution that takes the least amount of resources (time, money, manpower) to implement. That means that whatever they do with open world PvP, it will look essentially the same as it does right now. It might work better, or it might not, but it will be very similar.

 

I am very sorry you have this jaded approach to the MMO industry, while there are some bad applies in it there are also some very good companies that actually have the best interests of the game at heart and aren't against doing something innovative.

 

Their focus is on retaining their current base, if you know anything about retentions then you will know retaining current players is far easier and more cost effective than trying to get new people to subscribe, if everyone posted in this thread then you can bet they would change course instantly or face suicide. The MMO industry seem to be very much everything or nothing and you do touch on some very important issues however you are not in a better position than I am to say what is what could be and what can be

 

Your post is appreciated.

 

I'm not jaded at all about the MMO industry or Bioware in particular. I think the people working on SWTOR are talented, creative, and dedicated to the success of this game.

 

As for innovation, I think there is quite a bit of innovation within SWTOR, albeit within a very recognizable framework. They made a deliberate decision to have the overall structure of their game be very familiar to players, while refining the mechanics within that structure.

 

As for retention, I agree it is easier to retain players, but unfortunately that isn't enough. SWTOR was the most successful MMO launch to date, but it has disappointed internal projections. They need to grow their playerbase. The Star Wars license is very expensive and this game was a major financial investment.

 

They cannot, however, retain subscribers by catering to the desires of the forums. People are too fickle, and don't know enough about business, programming, game design, etc. to make informed suggestions. They will undoubtedly take the "mood" of the forum posters (which is only a small percentage of the players) into consideration. Additionally it's just not possible for designers to implement changes in a fast enough time frame to satisfy those who are looking for that kind of "response." If someone is going to unsub because of Ilum, a promised sweeping change a year from now isn't going to keep them around.

[Aneu]

I agree that it comes down to money, but companies as large as Bioware/EA are, by nature, very conservative. They're not going to throw more money at a project and significantly delay the development cycle of already planned features. They want a solution that takes the least amount of resources (time, money, manpower) to implement. That means that whatever they do with open world PvP, it will look essentially the same as it does right now. It might work better, or it might not, but it will be very similar.

 

 

 

I'm not jaded at all about the MMO industry or Bioware in particular. I think the people working on SWTOR are talented, creative, and dedicated to the success of this game.

 

As for innovation, I think there is quite a bit of innovation within SWTOR, albeit within a very recognizable framework. They made a deliberate decision to have the overall structure of their game be very familiar to players, while refining the mechanics within that structure.

 

As for retention, I agree it is easier to retain players, but unfortunately that isn't enough. SWTOR was the most successful MMO launch to date, but it has disappointed internal projections. They need to grow their playerbase. The Star Wars license is very expensive and this game was a major financial investment.

 

They cannot, however, retain subscribers by catering to the desires of the forums. People are too fickle, and don't know enough about business, programming, game design, etc. to make informed suggestions. They will undoubtedly take the "mood" of the forum posters (which is only a small percentage of the players) into consideration. Additionally it's just not possible for designers to implement changes in a fast enough time frame to satisfy those who are looking for that kind of "response." If someone is going to unsub because of Ilum, a promised sweeping change a year from now isn't going to keep them around.

 

So what solution would you suggest? Where would they get the information from that they require in order to see where the players want this game to go?

 

Their metrics are very limited and almost useless in terms of what players enjoy due to the limited scope of gameplay. I don't enjoy PvE very much however I have had to do it in order to keep myself active. Some players hate warzones however they do them because there is very little else to do. I hope you see this point.

 

Finally why do you post on these forums if you believe as you do, that anything you post is of little to no consequence and retains no value?

[Mhaer]

I love the overall idea, I was just trying to think of some suggestions for it.

 

One thing that I thought might be a bit boring in this is the long periods where someone is "slicing". If I understand this correctly that would me a player would be out of the action for that whole period ... or would it be like voidstar and they "plant" something then it just has to be there for a period of time before it finishes? I was thinking they could "plant" a crafted R2 droid or something .. and let it do the work so they could then defend or do something a bit more interesting.

 

Another part I really liked was the placeable turrets. Especially if they are crafted that is something that would be a major sink at endgame if they are continually being created and destroyed. Have you thought about expanding that idea into things like the shields, armor plating, force relics and other types of craftable consumable objects for the base defense and offense?

 

I think if they bases fortifications could be salvaged after the battle by the winning guild that would be another motivation to fight as well. You could raze a base, strip it and move on to the next, leaving it to a smaller guild from your faction to defend ... or sink all the resources right back in to defend it.

 

An idea for the faction balancing could apply if the multi-planet battle front was implemented. Instead of just buffing the smaller side, the large side could have rivalries introduced.

 

If a faction pushed past a certain point .. maybe the planets well behind the main front would now be open to same-faction attacks. This could spread out the larger factions focus and lessen the pressure on the smaller faction.

[DVSvictim]

Sounds good in theory. I am not a developer, but I'd guess something of this scale would take at least months if not a year though.

 

As much as I'd love to see something of this scale I fear it's a) too late and b) not the focus of BW, as that is 'story' aka PvE.

 

lol if this took bio a year i dont think id be around to see it tbh.

this seems very large scale but most of it is already in the game fs its 70% cut and paste code

 

they have hundreds of staff working on this ****, and 10/20 man group with a bit of skill could knock this together in a month.

Edited January 26, 2012 by DVSvictim

[MeHunglow]

wow you have totaly missed my point i am actully agreeing with you there should be more incentive than gear.... i even offered some other incentives such as a cross faction galatic trade network or fighting over resources ...

 

resources that can be used for a multiple of things crafting consumables, gear, spaceship parts (which would be awsome in future adaptations of the game if they do bring out space combat)you could even use said resources to bolster the defences of structures you currently hold

 

look at real life wars/conflicts are started over resources or differing beliefs ....

 

imo if you give people something that they can fight over it they more than likely will

 

Since you have devoted yourself to this path Chad, a system similar to AO's towers would be perfect. In AO a guild could claim and plant a tower site, and plant turrets/conductors which both aided in the defence of the site and gave the person planting a personal buff (xxx hp/nano pool or other stats equivalent to an extra piece of armour).

 

Now since Aneu has already proposed that bases be controlled by a guild, why not have slots around that base for mods/enhancements, these items will increase the hp of the shield generators, the damage of the cannons etc and give a buff to the individual who placed the item in the slot, how does 30 endurance 60 cunning 25 power sound for example?

 

These items would have to be crafted, giving some meaning to the crafting skills, even Artifice, since those cannons gonna need a colour crystal. Now the materials for this new line of crafted goodies could be gained in a number of imaginable ways, personally id say boss lewt from planet bosses, bringing pvp into more areas of the game.

 

Any way, just 1 idea, with the current state of PvP taking a dump on ones own screen could be considered and improvement.

[ranako]

hey...we have the same guild name...

[BlackSpin]

They cannot, however, retain subscribers by catering to the desires of the forums. People are too fickle, and don't know enough about business, programming, game design, etc. to make informed suggestions. They will undoubtedly take the "mood" of the forum posters (which is only a small percentage of the players) into consideration. Additionally it's just not possible for designers to implement changes in a fast enough time frame to satisfy those who are looking for that kind of "response." If someone is going to unsub because of Ilum, a promised sweeping change a year from now isn't going to keep them around.

 

What would your plan be? At the moment, people who have hit level 50, and have reached BM have hit the end of the content. In an MMO, there should be no end. Sure BioWare can release a new Flashpoint/Operation every month or two... but is that the real solution? To keep developers on new projects non-stop? That doesn't seem very fiscally responsible when compared to a solution that is perpetual and hands-off.

 

Any company who doesn't take suggestions from players, or review ideas that have been vetted by the community as a whole, is out of touch and will not deliver an epic product.

 

Like I said, whether they will or not if left to be seen... but instead of saying "BioWare wont do it. Life is pointless. We should all just kill ourselves," lets keep the hope. New ideas are what drive the economy, if BioWare doesn't do it, someone else will... which means this will all have been a waste of money anyway, on both sides.

Edited January 26, 2012 by BlackSpin

[CrunchyGremlin]

wow you have totaly missed my point i am actully agreeing with you there should be more incentive than gear.... i even offered some other incentives such as a cross faction galatic trade network or fighting over resources ...

 

resources that can be used for a multiple of things crafting consumables, gear, spaceship parts (which would be awsome in future adaptations of the game if they do bring out space combat)you could even use said resources to bolster the defences of structures you currently hold

 

look at real life wars/conflicts are started over resources or differing beliefs ....

 

imo if you give people something that they can fight over it they more than likely will

 

Sorry for using the word "you" all the time.

 

Agree with what you are saying in spirit here for sure.

Resources are the key and it has to be a resource i will lose if you get it.

[Amp_]

Regardless of this being possible to do or not, the overall theme is: world pvp has to be meaningful. It doesn't matter if it's the idea proposed by the OP or something completely different. It just has to be meaningful beyond getting a daily and weekly quest done. I think that's something everyone can at least agree upon. Edited January 26, 2012 by Amp_

[CrunchyGremlin]

I tell you what.. Go write up a way of getting this games pvp out the toilet and try and help rather than ***** at something you havent experienced in swtor or this innovative redesign. Because if Bioware dont do it, then EA will come down hard on these guys jobs in regards to future funding of projects. As the shareholders in EA will be chomping on the asses of bosses there.

 

What makes you think that BW doesnt have plans? What makes you think that the shareholders havent already told them that PvP can be done as a side issue.

 

This is not the right direction. although i applaud the effort put into this and the risk putting this up as an idea in a hostile environment its nothing really new.

 

this idea is not innovative.

Its just old ideas put into a different framework.

 

gear grind designed for people with no jobs and no life who can play 8 hours a day or 20 hours on a weekend.

Children and the unemployed or retired.

 

There is a lot more to the games PvP enjoyment and population besides OWPVP and leaving all that out is simply not good enough.

 

but ill let this thread die now.

its a good effort but if this is in the game or not makes very little difference to the current issues.