Shiredragon Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Project might end up being better than shock if fixed. Its travel time factors into its bonus damage coefficient, and unless that's calculated automatically, it'll probably remain. Additionally, if the animation stays the same but they just have the damage go out instantly (before the projectile arrives) you'll be able to interrupt the animation of the projectile and potentially hide it altogether (like you can do if you hit Project right as you finish casting Disturbance) and that might create situations where you're doing damage from a place that cannot be pinpointed. I may be incorrect, but I do not believe that they have different coefficients. And from the data I could find, they are in fact identical. It is intended to be an instant cast nuke mirroring the Imp version (sorry don't know the Imp names). However, in order to make 'sense', they have the damage application match the relative arrival time animation. If they gave the spells different coefficients, people would be running and screaming bloody murder. All the Imps would scream nerf. All the Repubs would pray for none. The issue is creating unfair game play differences via mechanics. This has shown it's head in many places because Bioware (rightly or wrongly) decided to try and match animations with damage output it a number of cases. Since they created mirror classes instead of granting all sides the same options, different animations make a difference. This leads to the obvious issues with Project, Mortar Volley, and I am sure probably some other moves. I usually only hear about the Republic negative ones, but there are possibly Imp negative too. To anyone that PvEs, these issues are nearly pointless if not entirely so. However, these issues are near and dear to the hearts of PvPers because they are laid out side by side where the benefits and short comings can become noticeable or glaring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tufy Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 If Empire and Republic both had Shock, we would have won. If Empire and Republic both had Project, we would have won. And if you used another ability instead of Project, you would have also won. If you want to compare two abilities in same situation, one will obiously come ahead. However, Project is AWESOME in burst situations where you can chain a number of abilities on the enemy for them all to strike at the same time. Big deal? Not really, because we can still use TK Throw, Weaken Mind, Force in Balance, even Forcequake to interrupt. But sure, we have mirrors, so mirror classes have to be equal, right? I mean, it's only fair. When they get around to fixing it, I honestly hope it'll be the Shock that will be delayed and not the other way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setalle Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 yeah because going out of my way to answer and pm people back questions about their character is because im naive... get real. I'm not here to help people so they can then betray me by crying QQ about project. Its already hard enough to kill geared healers, you WILL NOT if they change it And when people don't agree with you, you'll cry and threaten to take your ball and go home. I understood what you were saying the first time, and you're still being childish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iinnate Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 If you guys get project nerfed and they put instant cast damage on it, i'm taking my guide down immediately. Also straight up refusing to ever post on the boards again Its a 100% advantage to have a queue time on the ability. STOP TELLING THEM TO FIX IT what good does queing do when your opponent vanish/shield/immune ability on your qued double rock(sage talent instant talent proc for second rock)... it defeats the whole purpose of random procs for max burst damage becuase if your opponents are good they will see it coming from a mile away and negate your double rock proc. i dont even put talent points into double rock any more cuz of this. its pretty retarded how delusional people are thinking project is actrually good at burst. project has 0.1 burst advantage and -9000 burst disadvantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeyMal Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Project looks cooler, though. You get to throw metal debris at people. Huge as metal chunks > stupid lightning. So whatever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedi-outcast Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I'd just like to see project be done away with and instead maybe just give us a telekinetic crush with a simple implode animation. Pulling huge chunks of stuff out of the ground is a sage's job anyway. We are shadows, stealth lightsaber wielders and masters of martial combat. Our abilities should be FAST, and EFFECTIVE. Having project is like having a ninja spot before he's going to assassinate you and tell you to wait in place while he channels a meteor spell to drop over your head. While the spell is cool, I think it's more flavor suited to sages and the abilities and animations of shadows should be more suited to martial combat. What I would like to see is maybe the following: -Project Changed to Implode, the Shadow reaches out with a crushing motion and a distortion of force waves crushes the enemy, maybe with a light screen shake or mild effect. Very fast animation akin to shock. or -Project causes the Shadow to do a saber thrust and impale the enemy with a bar of telekinetic force that passes through them quickly and effectively. This. This this this this this this this this this this this. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtisthegrk Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Ok not trying to be a dick but yes project delay CAN be useful... Unless you are vsing skilled plays that see u chain it up and use defensives at that exact second not only negating both spells but making you waste 2 cd's at the same time. /agree on them changing shock however i think sith inq will complain like crazy even thought it is making the pvp playing field equal. But srsly enough of this bullcrap about project delay being good because yes it can be ... if your vsing 10 year olds that have no idea how to time a defensive cd -.- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kooxy Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Project delay has more negative aspects in PvP than stopping people from capping flags. Many times I was killed because of that delay. Granted my oponment died as well, but not dying can enable you to stop another capper, cap a node and delay/kill a flag carrier. All of these actions can decide a game sometimes. For example, although this occurs more rarely, the lag delay on project enabled an enemy to cap a flag in hutball today. I casted project when he had 2k ish hp right before the line. but the delay made him cap then die. which cost us the game since we were tied. Also to the people saying that the you won't be able to kill healers anymore if delay is removed, any healer that actually knows what he's doing will know that the burst is coming so it will not "surprise them" . The only time the delay is useful is when you are dpsing somebody other than the healer in a grp . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarSiren Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 (edited) Hi all, I'm currently playing an Inquisitor and I decided to try a Consular out (mainly cause I wanted to see Tython.) and I have to say that yes there is a definite lag difference and I can 100% see the issue it's causing for most. I was actually shocked over the delay. So yeah I think both classes need a good look over and their animation times for all abilities fixed. Edited February 6, 2012 by WarSiren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
me_unknown Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 (edited) While I certainly agree that the differences should be fixed between Shock and Project, I have to say -- you're wrong. In PvP, specifically, the delay is helpful in some cases. It is, sometimes, the difference between the target popping a medpac or dying. Burst is king. You may not LIKE the fact that there are pros along with the cons, but there are some. i don't see here any pro. they can see the animation and it is VERY VERY visible. so they know it is coming and they know that there may come another one. so it actually is even EASIER to popup a medipac in this case! edit: ok i admit. if you face an idiot that instead of taking action when he sees the animation but preferes staring at it then yes it may be slightly usefull. though in such a case it wouldn't make any difference even if there is no delay. every day i either die because projects delay allowed my opponent to kill me before project killed him or he got healed before project killed him or project remained in the air while the shadow vanished every day i have at least a couple of moments i say "damn delay!". but not once i said oh the delayed dmg of project with a following instant was helpfull - not a single time! Edited February 6, 2012 by me_unknown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oktaine Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 (edited) After recently switching from Assassin to Shadow I can tell you that the difference is huge. Those that say it's not bad have never used it on the other side. I love the animation, it's just plain awesome and I'd hate to see it changed, but it just isn't working right. Either front load the damage or change to the crush animation someone mentioned. Edit: And I'm not for changing the Sith version in any way. Breaking theirs because ours is broken is not the answer. Edited February 6, 2012 by Oktaine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KilmarFyrewynd Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 (edited) You guys are whack if you think project is bad because of the slight delay... For starters, it still does dmg if someone goes stealth, but not if they force resilience/stealth like most do. I know this because i have killed ppl with project delay after they vanish, they end up on the floor dead you just don't see any dmg pop up. I don't think you really play a Consular if you think Project is what killed the stealthed enemy instead of something else. Yesterday, I was playing Alderaan and saw the left side appear to be empty. I stealthed over and started capping until another assassin unstealthed to attack me. I had him at 2% health with me at a good 20% left when I cast project and Upheaval proc'ed and he disappeared. After staring incredulously at my two floating boulders, a marauder jumped in and finished me. So instead of killing the assassin and cloaking to heal up and wait for reinforcements, there is now a marauder and an assassin at the left gun. There is absolutely positively 0 chance of the assassin surviving if the project hit. None. This is not the first time it's happened to me and I'm sure it's not the last time it will happen. As for why I didn't use stun or low blow, they were both on CD which is how I got him to 2%. Edited February 6, 2012 by KilmarFyrewynd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rykko Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Bioware sure seemed a lot smarter before this game launched than they do now. Testing ran from Aug '09 to Dec '11 and either these mirror imbalances were dismissed as unimportant or just not reported by people using beta as free playtime. Given they didn't even care enough to read the tooltips on mirror abilites, I lean towards developer incompetence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vyruzvetrix Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Am I the only Shadow / Assassin that likes the delay on this ability? I love the fact that I can hit project, and have it hit at exactly the same time as my breach for lots of burst, causing my enemy to panic. I will give you credit for the balance issue though. If the classes are supposed to be mirrored, then both should be delayed or both be instant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dtwokson Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 i like the animation...just give me the damage before it actually hits. i could care less if i shot lucky charms from my shadow, i just want my instant attack to be instant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
me_unknown Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Am I the only Shadow / Assassin that likes the delay on this ability? I love the fact that I can hit project, and have it hit at exactly the same time as my breach for lots of burst, causing my enemy to panic. I will give you credit for the balance issue though. If the classes are supposed to be mirrored, then both should be delayed or both be instant. this (if at all) may only be an advantage if you face a noob. considering the many disadvantages which are affecting every kind of player you still like this delay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiredragon Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 After recently switching from Assassin to Shadow I can tell you that the difference is huge. Those that say it's not bad have never used it on the other side. I love the animation, it's just plain awesome and I'd hate to see it changed, but it just isn't working right. Either front load the damage or change to the crush animation someone mentioned. Edit: And I'm not for changing the Sith version in any way. Breaking theirs because ours is broken is not the answer. I do appreciate the candid response and perspective from both sides. I do however take issue with our version being 'broken'. I believe many people think it is 'broken' because they Imp version is preferable. However I do not think that it is necessarily broken. There are many instant cast spells that have effects that take place after the casting there of. The one that comes to mind quickest is Weaken Mind or the Imp version too. It is a DoT with no upfront damage. You must wait a few seconds to see the damage. If you tried to stop a cap with Weaken Mind that was about to complete, people would (rightly so) call you slow. You use your abilities based on what they do. The issue IMO is not that one spell is better than another. It is that a 'mirrored spell' is not the same. This creates unbalanced game play in a matched environment. Now, if Bioware was okay with that, fine. WoW was not originally mirrored. One side had paladins and the other shamans. A game does not have to be mirrored. However, it is obvious that SWTOR is intended to be mirrored. Thus any symmetry breaking becomes obscenely obvious. This is one such case that is near and dear to our hearts. The simple fixes (IMO) are to either have the damage be instant and the animation catches up. Or that there is a charge-discharge time on Shock so that the two are equivalent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nphect Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Just adding my 'hand up', on the request for a change. I'm one of those that decided to play swtor with PVP in mind. Chose repub 'coz of mates, shadow for something different as i havent plyed a stealther. Assumed everything was mirrored. Wrong. Too many people have mentioned situations that I have experienced for this not to be *Attentioned. I personally don't care what happens to what side i just want an even match with an equally skilled sin who cant phantom fade when i pull a rock or spin twirl my finisher on his face. I headbutt my keyboard everytime it happens and i'm claiming a new forehead from BW as concave features aren't a win. Pls even things out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gryphandor Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Just adding my 'hand up', on the request for a change. I'm one of those that decided to play swtor with PVP in mind. Chose repub 'coz of mates, shadow for something different as i havent plyed a stealther. Assumed everything was mirrored. Wrong. Too many people have mentioned situations that I have experienced for this not to be *Attentioned. I personally don't care what happens to what side i just want an even match with an equally skilled sin who cant phantom fade when i pull a rock or spin twirl my finisher on his face. I headbutt my keyboard everytime it happens and i'm claiming a new forehead from BW as concave features aren't a win. Pls even things out. Right now I would love them to be even. The Lightening just seems so much more effective then Project. I think the bigger issue is how OP the Sorc is in general right now. You can shine with pressing 4 or 5 buttons. Need way more then that for every other dps or tank spec I have played so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boxer Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Force Wave is worse, IMO. The door capping thing is a rare case. However, I frequently get knocked back, stunned and occasionally killed while jumping up to do my force wave. Not only does my force wave not go off, but it also still goes on cool down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spectreclees Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Force Wave is worse, IMO. The door capping thing is a rare case. However, I frequently get knocked back, stunned and occasionally killed while jumping up to do my force wave. Not only does my force wave not go off, but it also still goes on cool down. This. Although project is still an issue I agree. Force wave is a bigger issue with what it can be used for (interruption of casts). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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