The morality system is a sad take on the force.

[_Verja_]

True, too bad he wiped out all the Jedi before that lol... I guess true balance is there not being any sith or Jedi.

 

According to lucas in order for there to be balance there has to be only Jedi.

 

 

 

Yeah I know doesn't make any sense to me either, but I cant fill a swimming pool in 1000 dollar bills and pay hot chicks to swim in it and make out and stuff. So what the heck do I know right?

[vizzaltalik]

A black and white morality system -- where act A is 'good,' but act B is a 'no-no' -- does not equate to the force, and never has. That is why the dark side is tied more to emotional output than to set-in-stone actions. Murder is a bad act, but what if you kill to save, or kill to defend, or even kill for (what you believe to be) a righteous cause? It's easy to sit back and wash our hands of a situation and be like 'oh, well that's evil,' but the force is more concerned with attachment/detachment than it is about doing a body count and then pointing fingers. One man's murder is another man's justice, and the force has much more to do with a person's emotional state during the act than the act itself.

 

An incorrect assessment. Dark/Light has both to do with emotion, as well as the act. Walking around calmly killing every living thing on the planet with no emotion what soever would still align someone with the dark side.

 

Ontop of that the choice of what to do, each choice in game comes with its own emotional imprint on it. Darkside choices tend to be emotional responses to things. So the game does take emotion into account.

 

Yes its fairly black/white but hey...its a bioware game. If you expected anything different you have obviously been dropped on your head one too many times.

 

What if Anakin had been told that there was a massive bomb at the center of Coruscant that would explode if he didn't murder the younglings? Yes this is a silly situation, but it demonstrates a point -- Anakin's mental state during the killings was far more important than the killings themselves in determining whether the act was light/dark.

 

I'll point you to the JK quest line when you first meet the head of the council. I'll point to what she says about taking a life having an effect on someone especially in regards to the dark side. Even if Anakin did it to save everyone on coruscant killing all those children he would have still probably moved deeper into the dark side.

 

Taking a life, regardless of reason, has an affect on people. The reason for doing so can play into how it affects them, but there is no case in which it has no effect (excluding sociopaths).

 

 

This is why the Jedi wear kid gloves while dealing with the force -- why seemingly 'everything' leads to the darkside. Because one questionable act, while it might not be truly dark, could conceivably lead to others that are. Anakin being sad about leaving his mom in Ep. I probably wasn't all that strongly darksided -- but when it led to an obsession by the time of his teenage years that ultimately culminated in the slaughter of the sand people, then we can begin to appreciate the initial hesitancy of the council regarding his entry into the Order.

 

The problem with the morality system in TOR is that it makes no account for the long term ramifications -- good or bad -- of a decision. Every single choice results in an immediate morality swing, often with ridiculous implications with regards to what Bioware apparently believes is light or dark. As a Sith Warrior, what if I saved Overseer Tremmel because I was thinking about how he would help me slaughter Baras? Is that a lightsided move? Is 'saving a life' good if I am plotting to utilize the person in a future coldblooded murder? Therein lies the flaw of this system -- instantaneous, absolute and utterly farcical 'judgement' is rendered without any consideration being given for ulterior motives.

 

The game can not enforce this. To try to enforce this is silly and draconian. The way its enforced is by the player deciding to roleplay or not, deciding to make their avatar a actual character or not, and so on and so forth. YOU are the one in control of what happens with your character, not the game. And quite frankly thats the way it should be. The game should not tell me I need to select a dark side option here because I selected one before. What if I had a change of heart...what if something happened between that last choice and now and my character repented and made amends and returned to the light but it wasn't reflected in an ingame choice?

 

These are things the game can not deal with. Nor should it deal with. It provides methods for us to express the character in a multitude of different ways. It provides us with the way to make choices, however meaningful/meaningless they are.

 

*Edit* I wanted to also add, there is a huge issue with 'goodness by proxy' that pops up time and again. Just because an act is of 'lesser evil' than another, does not make it good. There's a quest on Dromund Kaas that is a perfect example -- where my character is given the option to either brutally kill a bunch of rebellious slaves slowly, or kill them quickly. Now, maybe a quick exit is a better way to go, but that doesn't make such an action lightsided, for Christ's sake.

 

Going to point out where you're wrong here. Killing them quickly is a lightsided choice. If you had done nothing, someone else would have gone in and poisoned them and caused them to suffer. Even if someone else did not starvation from lack of food would have set in and caused them to suffer. Suffering leads to the darkside. Preventing said suffering, and thus preventing the strengthening of the darkside in the area is thus for the 'greater good' and the lightside.

[Seuria]

Star Wars has always been a black-and-white system of morality, and that's fine in many mediums. Sometimes, people want to have a clear hero and a clear villain.

 

I'm okay with that, but that sort of system isn't working for me this time around. The Jedi Knight story, at least, seems violently conservative in approach to making me the hero (be it a knight in shining armor or a dark psychotic who nevertheless takes the battle to the Sith). I was hoping for something far more nuanced and gray.

 

But, in the end that's not a reflection on the game, but me. If they don't meet my needs I'mma just move on down the road (and I am when I finish this character's story). No biggie, no hatred, hope the game is a smashing success for those who like it.

[Behrit]

A black and white morality system -- where act A is 'good,' but act B is a 'no-no' -- does not equate to the force, and never has. That is why the dark side is tied more to emotional output than to set-in-stone actions. Murder is a bad act, but what if you kill to save, or kill to defend, or even kill for (what you believe to be) a righteous cause? It's easy to sit back and wash our hands of a situation and be like 'oh, well that's evil,' but the force is more concerned with attachment/detachment than it is about doing a body count and then pointing fingers. One man's murder is another man's justice, and the force has much more to do with a person's emotional state during the act than the act itself.

 

What if Anakin had been told that there was a massive bomb at the center of Coruscant that would explode if he didn't murder the younglings? Yes this is a silly situation, but it demonstrates a point -- Anakin's mental state during the killings was far more important than the killings themselves in determining whether the act was light/dark.

 

This is why the Jedi wear kid gloves while dealing with the force -- why seemingly 'everything' leads to the darkside. Because one questionable act, while it might not be truly dark, could conceivably lead to others that are. Anakin being sad about leaving his mom in Ep. I probably wasn't all that strongly darksided -- but when it led to an obsession by the time of his teenage years that ultimately culminated in the slaughter of the sand people, then we can begin to appreciate the initial hesitancy of the council regarding his entry into the Order.

 

The problem with the morality system in TOR is that it makes no account for the long term ramifications -- good or bad -- of a decision. Every single choice results in an immediate morality swing, often with ridiculous implications with regards to what Bioware apparently believes is light or dark. As a Sith Warrior, what if I saved Overseer Tremmel because I was thinking about how he would help me slaughter Baras? Is that a lightsided move? Is 'saving a life' good if I am plotting to utilize the person in a future coldblooded murder? Therein lies the flaw of this system -- instantaneous, absolute and utterly farcical 'judgement' is rendered without any consideration being given for ulterior motives.

 

*Edit* I wanted to also add, there is a huge issue with 'goodness by proxy' that pops up time and again. Just because an act is of 'lesser evil' than another, does not make it good. There's a quest on Dromund Kaas that is a perfect example -- where my character is given the option to either brutally kill a bunch of rebellious slaves slowly, or kill them quickly. Now, maybe a quick exit is a better way to go, but that doesn't make such an action lightsided, for Christ's sake.

 

Do you have a suggestion on how to make it better?

[LordXalas]

Yes, and you get to choose between having a character who is a complete psychopath, or one that is dillusional and utterly unaware of her surroundings. There is no version of 'character X' that takes a lawful-evil Sith into consideration. You are either a Jedi masquerading as a Sith Lord or you are the devil incarnate with your little demonling associate.

 

guess you haven't played the imperial agent. the light side ending differs greatly then the darkside ending.

[Gannan]

You ever play KOTOR OP? It is the exact same thing as back then, and it worked perfectly then, and it definitely works perfectly now.

 

I always ended up as fairly neutral in KOTOR except at the end when you are forced to choose one or the other. Here, I'm pretty much forced to pick. I'm closer to ls than ds so I have to use diplomacy to farm points for gear. Which is fine. The only regret I have is

that as a SW I borked my story by being closer to ls when I got my apprenticee, so now I'm a sith with a jedi for an apprentice.

 

[Calsidian]

In the end, the system as a whole is a gimmick, and is severely restricted by the limitations of the MMO format. If you expected any real depth to the stories in this game, you're going to be disappointed.

 

They did an admirable job with what they had to work with, but really I think you need a true single player game in order to structure the game around a story with meaningful impact on your character and the world. The unfortunate reality of an MMO is you can’t include decisions that have any real impact on the character without having a large portion of the playerbase moan and complain about it. Just look at the removal of companion death as an example.

[WickedDjinn]

From the very beginning Star Wars has always been about stark black and white morality. If you want something different you are a fan of the wrong series.

[Mineria]

@OP

If the force sways one way or another is up to the force itself, not by your illusions of what good and bad is.

A pureblood doesn't even know the difference.

Taking the obvious right choice is not always right either.

It might not have its effect at once, but can come later on a complete different planet.

The force might be with you, but that is not a warranty for that your surroundings are with you.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Mineria

[Mazikeen]

I find it amusing that the OP thinks a morality issue can be programmed into a MMO to reflect it's true complexity

 

And, FYI, I have had choices where killing someone is a light side choice and letting them live is a dark side choice. I think BioWare did a fairly decent job on the game

[Korizan]

Actually I find it rather interesting that so many people took the empire side and there comments about the comparisons between the two.

 

I would think psychologists would be having a field day with that and how it depicts the current gaming community.

[genghiscon]

Apparently, OP has never seen any Star Wars film... ever?

[Drallbait]

I love it. And I also loved sitting in the Theatre watching Star Wars for the first time in the 1970s, and have loved it ever since.

 

So I reject your "Analysis" and call it what it is: "Opinion".

 

If you want to understand the difference, it is just the difference between trying to make a great movie that people would be entertained by in an environment where a Sci Fi movie with special effects would blow everyone's mind, and making a Star Wars MMO for people who think they should write their PhD thesis on Star Wars lore and/or MMO game mechanics.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Drallbait

[Mazikeen]

I would think psychologists would be having a field day with that and how it depicts the current gaming community.

 

The funny thing about psychology is the simple fact you cannot lump the complexities of the individual human mind into a general group

 

Just because people went Empire means little to nothing without data on why, what actions are being performed and how many players have characters that are the complete opposite of one another

[Superawesomerman]

Actually, once you hit 50, ls/ds becomes another completely cosmetic decision, like 90% of the choice in this game.

[WickedDjinn]

From the very beginning Star Wars has always been about stark black and white morality. If you want something different you are a fan of the wrong series.

[Superawesomerman]

Actually, once you hit 50, ls/ds becomes another completely cosmetic decision, like 90% of the choice in this game.

 

Edit: perhaps thats not really a bad thing, either.

[Thradar]

I still maintain that the biggest problem of the LS/DS system is that it is POINTLESS- it doesnt change anything (NOT ONE THING) about how the storyline ends up going.

 

Agreed. Let me start Republic, go dark side, then at some point have the option of going through some long drawn out quest line to be able to switch faction to the Empire...so I could be a zombified Jedi Knight fighting along side of Sith.

 

I guess that would be too much fun.

[Cerion]

Star Wars, canonically speaking, has always been morally black and white. It is only when you get into certain extended universe crap where moral relativism comes into play.

 

 

Having said that, I think BW has done a fairly decent job of imitating those choices -- as much as the medium will allow. In fact, there are times when I've considered an answer, only to discover it was Dark Side. Then upon further reflection, I realize that the Light Side choice is actually pretty accurate to a LS Jedi outlook, regardless of what I believe would be a better choice.

 

Welcome to 'role' playing where you are actually playing a role, and not some wishy-washy do as I please, non-committal b.s.

[formulaic]

From the very beginning Star Wars has always been about stark black and white morality. If you want something different you are a fan of the wrong series.

 

Really? the example from the OP:

- if you kill the slaves slowly = darkside.

- if you kill the slaves quickly = lightside.

 

That certainly isn't "stark black and white morality". It's different shades of black/grey...

Edited January 25, 2012 by formulaic

[SableShadow]

The problem with the morality system in TOR is that it makes no account for the long term ramifications -- good or bad -- of a decision.

 

instantaneous, absolute and utterly farcical 'judgement' is rendered without any consideration being given for ulterior motives.

 

 

The problem with the morality system is TOR is the game cannot read your mind; as you pointed out, the "why" is as or more important than the "what" when judging morality.

 

Am I annoyed that some of my choices don't do what I think they should? Yes.

Do I accept that imperfect system is imperfect? Yes ... grudgingly, sometimes, but yes.

Edited January 25, 2012 by SableShadow

[Lankybrit]

Seriously, complaining about this aspect of the game?

 

This shows that, as with WoW, people will complain about absolutely everything.

 

Cheers.

[Buur]

Seriously, complaining about this aspect of the game?

 

This shows that, as with WoW, people will complain about absolutely everything.

 

Cheers.

 

It is a major part of the story driven game. And it is pretty poor. Why would people not complain about it?

[Yakito]

The morality in this game is indeed ridiculous. You'd think that Bioware would be aware but they proven me wrong in the latest expansion.

 

So there's this guy that's been bitten by a Rackghoul and is starting to turn.

Here's the kicker - If you spare him and let him suffer through the transformation and THEN kill him anyway, because he'll attack you, you will get Light Side points.

If you end his suffering quickly and he dies while still being a man and not a mindless beast - Dark Side points, for taking his dignity away.

 

 

So what that I pointed it out, right? Of course Bioware will make more of these ridiculous choices that will make you think if people making those ever gave it a thought.

It's like with polititians. We can even make riots to show them that we disagree, but they'll do their thing either way.

[Thradar]

Seriously, complaining about this aspect of the game?

 

This shows that, as with WoW, people will complain about absolutely everything.

 

Cheers.

 

Wut?

 

It pretty much drivers every dialogue decision in the game/story.