Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Xcore]

Xcore, I salute you and your mission to help make this game better.

 

Thanks, a bit off topic but Camera Movement, Targeting are two of my other concerns... something to think about at a later time...

[Rasstavad]

Thanks, a bit off topic but Camera Movement, Targeting are two of my other concerns... something to think about at a later time...

 

I'm sending BW a bill for a new mouse. I have the mousewheel bound to scroll my view out - which I have to constantly do in a warzone to keep any kind situational awareness. rofl

 

Anyhow, I'd like to address something being talked about a few pages back... how clunky mechanics and "ability delay" lower the skillcap and even the playing field.

 

An simplistic example

 

I'm fighting someone in The Pit, I have the advantage and I'm going to win - I notice another enemy approaching to help his teammate out. So, I move the fight nearer a drop-off and as soon as the 2nd player approaches I switch targets, stun the incoming enemy player and use my kncokback to send him off of the ledge. I then switch back to my original target and finish him - which gives me a few seconds to either run away or quickly try to heal myself before the person I CC'd has a chance to move back up.

 

Now, this is what really happens... I see the second person approaching and when he gets close I attempt to tab target him, but I end up targetting a player 30 yards behind me... so I try to click target him (harder than it sounds, rofl) finally I get him, now I'm engaged. I stun him, position myself and use my knockback.... it doesn't fire... I spam the button, it goes off - but instead of flying off the ledge he is knocked through me to a safe location away from the pit... now, if I'm lucky I can finish the original guy but I'm sure as hell going to die to the second.

 

So, instead of a simple bit of finesse, situational awarness, positioning and quick reactions allowing me to win the 1v1(2) and get away I end up pacing back and forth in spawn waiting for the shield to drop.

 

When you can't execute abilities when you need them, exactly when you need them, and have those abilities react properly with the other players/environment, it takes all finesse and skill out of the equation and promotes simple gear battles and button mashing - and rewards those that win the ability lottery.

 

Anyhow, I just can't comprehend how people can't understand that ability delay and all the problems we have mashed together under this problem are a casuals wet dream but a competitive players worst nightmare.

[skotish]

I have assault as my marauder ability bind to E gives me a quick way to generate rage in close quarters "only using it ie spamming it locks up my avatar then having to reset my UI mid fight on pvp" abilities just done fire at all most of the time

[Klarick]

Congratulations on hitting 50

 

Thank you friend. I have participated in about 15 WZ's as a level 50 and am happy to announce that I have still not experienced the ability-delay issue. Now, to be fair, I will admit that I haven't participated in Ilum's PvP yet. So, it is possible that the issue is waiting for me on that planet. I will see soon, as I am heading there tonight.

 

I will report my findings after some decent play-time on Ilum.

[Xcore]

Thank you friend. I have participated in about 15 WZ's as a level 50 and am happy to announce that I have still not experienced the ability-delay issue. Now, to be fair, I will admit that I haven't participated in Ilum's PvP yet. So, it is possible that the issue is waiting for me on that planet. I will see soon, as I am heading there tonight.

 

I will report my findings after some decent play-time on Ilum.

 

Ok, grats again to hitting 50.

 

I doubt you will notice any delay in abilities or general issues with responsiveness to input etc. if you have not noticed it already. There have been no reports that I can recall in the entire threadline that note a sudden appearance at a certain level or Illum specifically.

 

Mostly it is noted to be most noticeable in Warzones and general PvP but this may be due to more frantic gameplay etc.

 

Also patch 1.1.0b has really improved this entire issue greatly for me, this is a case where I should state "imo" as it is "to my sensitivity" been improved to a point where I hardly notice any of the issues I used to.

 

Here are things I still notice:

 

1) Mounting Issue

2) Channeled Abilities -- Ticks are irregular, sometimes first ticks happen halfway through channel etc.

3) Animation/Sound and Effect Sync are off on some abilities (easily notable on Cover Pulse for me)

4) "Sometimes" in tight rotation I notice a slight delay or hesitance for an ability to trigger

 

 

Here are some things I do not notice but others have noted:

 

1) "Stutter" animation/ability, most notable it appears in Riposte/Retaliation etc.

 

(I can't think of any other, someone please fill in if I missed)

 

 

 

All in all, Bioware has satisfied me greatly with 1.1.0b but it still is far from perfect and I believe better players (than myself) as well as those with lower tolerance to imperfections still do notice some delay/issues... but I must be honest, I barely if at all do.

 

I would urge those who quit or left because of this issue to try again since 1.1.0b and report back their findings in this thread...

[shirtandtie]

Thank you very much for making this thread and for communicating this problem to the leaders. Your video is especially good and i made sure to "Like" it.

 

I bought this game about two weeks ago and when i joined pvp i was shocked that i had this problem. I've played 15 MMORPGs last year (thanks to all the ones that went F2P) and I've never had such mechanical issues be so severe.

 

Since the patch my game play has improved significantly in pvp to where i am able to play. Though some problems still persist with delays.

 

Thank you again for working so hard to make this issue visible to the developers.

 

 

 

OFFTOPIC

I quit WoW about a year ago and i have to say that watching your video reminded me how responsive their system is. I have to give credit where credit is due and those developers sure did a great job with that. So thank you for showing me that also.

Edited January 28, 2012 by shirtandtie

[Larlar]

Things have improved for me aswell, but in all honesty, its more to do with the fact that I rerolled a ranged class a week or two ago and its just easier to stand around and nuke/heal stuff. My Jedi Knight is finished as the FPS issues in warzones and general 'clunkiness' of the play make competitive or even interesting melee PVP an impossibility. I'm the sort of person who is used to constant movement while ripping people up with my rogue as I run around them non stop and hit them with a barrage of abilities from all angles.

 

That type of play is just impossible in this game with all the hidden permanent keybinds bringing my character unceremiously to a halt and sending my camera wheeling off in a random direction as a result, the FPS that quickly degenerates the longer the client has been active, the resetting camera every time you move forward (facepalm), the relentless bugs that I encounter in any play session (I make 3/4 tickets per day - I dont know why I bother, they just close them and move on), the stutter/freeze that happens every time my companion appears or another player appears on screen (this also gets worse with the cleint active time), the uselessness of tab targetting combined with the impossibility of effectively clicking on targets etc etc. Its getting a bit much.

 

I'm in for another month but that's it. The story has kept me going but I just got sent on a ridiculous journey from Drommund Kas to Fleet and back again to Drommund Kas for absolutely no bloody reason as part of my Sorcerer quest line so even the class quests are starting to bug me.

[Sylriana]

1) "Stutter" animation/ability, most notable it appears in Riposte/Retaliation etc.

 

 

I still notice this a lot. Primarily with my Knight's riposte and my Agent's corrosive dart. If I get mashy with the key the animation will clip itself several times, and the move won't actually land until the animation completes.

 

It wouldn't be a problem itself if for whatever reason so many attacks weren't tied directly to the animation ( or at least, that's how it appears to be, given the stuttering issue and the issue with dodged attacks interrupting abilities that are mid-animation ), compared to most MMOs where the animation doesn't actually mean anything.

 

 

I'm also having some issues with animation de-sync on ranged characters still. But not as bad as pre-patch, and it doesn't appear to have any effect other than cosmetic ones ( though it is silly to get credit for completing a quest that involves killing an enemy before my character actually starts shooting their gun )

[Putok]

I noticed a really decent improvement as Gunslinger... though the overall feeling is still not as tight as WoW or as tight as It should be...

 

What class do you play and where/how do you notice it the most?

 

 

Regardless, I really would urge you to stick it out with SW:TOR until Bioware rolls out 1.1.1 and see the improvememts after that. I think the potential is there to feel just as good as WoW and they are working on it...

 

FWIW, I think I noticed more of an improvement on my sniper than any of my other characters. I do still sometimes have issues. Cast bar inaccuracy is probably the biggest issue, followed by cast bars restarting halfway through. I gather that is all high up on the "to do" list in pending patches, though.

 

EDIT: I'll mention cover pulse too. It's almost comical how badly out of sync the sound/animation/effect are with each other.

 

I had basically shelved this character before this recent patch because of combat responiveness issues, and now it's fun for me to play again, so I'll say there's a major improvement. Unplayable --> fun is pretty good for a single fix, IMHO. I can't wait to see how good they can get it. I have a feeling combat 6 months from now will feel like a whole different animal in a good way.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Putok

[Cyndelx]

Issue is still here. They haven't fixed the ability-animation sync. I am really sick of heals getting a 4 second window to interrupt. Smart players will now interrupt a healer after their cast has gone off. Because then the healer just wasted a lot of time for a heal that won't go off even though it should. I shouldn't have to be tied down to the animations. If my cast bar is finished, the spell should go off. Period.

 

It is ridiculous. And people posting in this thread that they don't notice the issue obviously have no clue what a responsive game is.

[Xcore]

Channeled abilities are bothering me the most currently, anyone else noticing the irregularities on channeled abilities? The ticks taking starting sometimes right away (as supposed to be) but other times (usually within a rotation etc) halfway through the channel?

 

Aside from the Sync of Animation/Sound and Effect etc., Channeled abilities are quite out of whack and unreliable atm.

 

 

Do we need video footage on this? I want to wait until next patch hits addressing the overall "Responsiveness" discussed etc before taking any more footage. After 1.1.0b I think Bioware deserves a little bit of time and "belief"

[DirtyDozen]

Channeled abilities are bothering me the most currently, anyone else noticing the irregularities on channeled abilities? The ticks taking starting sometimes right away (as supposed to be) but other times (usually within a rotation etc) halfway through the channel?

 

Aside from the Sync of Animation/Sound and Effect etc., Channeled abilities are quite out of whack and unreliable atm.

 

 

Do we need video footage on this? I want to wait until next patch hits addressing the overall "Responsiveness" discussed etc before taking any more footage. After 1.1.0b I think Bioware deserves a little bit of time and "belief"

 

I'm seeing this same problem on both a Sorcerer and an Operative right now.

[Halacs]

Channeled abilities are bothering me the most currently, anyone else noticing the irregularities on channeled abilities? The ticks taking starting sometimes right away (as supposed to be) but other times (usually within a rotation etc) halfway through the channel?

 

Aside from the Sync of Animation/Sound and Effect etc., Channeled abilities are quite out of whack and unreliable atm.

 

 

Do we need video footage on this? I want to wait until next patch hits addressing the overall "Responsiveness" discussed etc before taking any more footage. After 1.1.0b I think Bioware deserves a little bit of time and "belief"

 

50 sage here, see it all the time. Steady ping and fps but ticks start at different times.

[Jonisaurus]

Crossposting from my other thread.

 

I made some tests to be able to PINPOINT ability delay, when it happens, what happens.

Bear in mind this is 100% what happens to me, it's likely it's the same for everyone, but I don't claim anything.

 

These are my results:

 

 

 

 

What happens?

 

There is a slight delay between the 1st and the 2nd cast (in a chain of casts). This means that when one queues up the 2nd spell shortly before the 1st cast ends, the 2nd cast does NOT instantly begin casting, instead there is a slight delay of about 0.5 second after the 1st cast finishes.

 

What will happen is that the cast bar will start to fade out for a short moment, then reappear and begin casting the 2nd spell. Without the delay, the cast bar basically stays in place, the new cast will instantly start casting.

 

You will notice it more by the feeling of unresponsiveness than by the visual cues.

 

This does NOT happen between the 2nd and 3rd or any consecutive casts.

It only occurs between the 1st and 2nd cast.

 

 

Again: When does it happen?

 

Ability Delay is now limited to the first cast in a chain of casts.

To be more specific: Ability Delay only happens after the first cast (in a chain of casts) is finished. Between the 1st and the 2nd cast.

 

Any consecutive casts are totally instant without any sort of delay.

 

 

Does the Ability Queue ingame option affect this delay?

 

I am not completely sure. A higher ability queue setting might (MIGHT) exacerbate the problem slightly.

 

 

Which spell is affected?

 

All my tests showed that it doesn't matter what type of spell. A normal cast, a channelled spell, heals. It is the exact same for me no matter what type of spell.

 

 

Does it matter how long the cast time is?

 

Not to my knowledge, but all the spells I have tested this with were similar in cast time. This could be different. I currently don't have any clues either way.

 

 

What could be the cause?

 

To me it looks like a server <-> client response problem. The fact that this only occurs right after the first cast is finished, kind of the moment where the server knows you are beginning to cast, and not after any consecutive casts looks like this is a server communication problem.

 

If I am correct then I believe that is good news, because a netcode problem is probably (HOPEFULLY) easier to fix than a game engine problem.

 

 

One exception...

 

Oddly enough, there is an exception when you use a channelled spell and you switch targets.

 

If one casts Telekenetic Throw onto one target, switches target, then casts Telekenetic Throw it does NOT happen. Then there is 0 delay.

 

This has to do with the fact that when you switch target with channelled spells, you don't actually queue up a spell, instead you instantly start casting the new channel therefore cutting the old one off.

 

This hints in the direction of the ability queue as the cause of this ability delay.

 

These are some facts:

When you cast a channelled spell onto the SAME target (while still channeling the 1st spell), it queues up the new channel and waits until the 1st channel is finished. === DELAY

 

When you cast a channelled spell onto a DIFFERENT target (while the same spell is still being channelled onto the old target) it cuts of the old channel and immediately starts the new one. === NO DELAY

 

Ability queue at fault?

Edited January 30, 2012 by Jonisaurus

[Cyndelx]

Bump......

[Ignotis]

I can't imagine how blindly loyal your fanboyism is if you think the ability delays are a massive conspiracy against bioware and the masses of people are just lying.

 

The ability in delay in instanced story areas: Very minor

 

Open world PvE: Moderate

 

Warzones and any kind of large scape PvP: Atrocious.

[asbalana]

Channeled abilities are bothering me the most currently, anyone else noticing the irregularities on channeled abilities? The ticks taking starting sometimes right away (as supposed to be) but other times (usually within a rotation etc) halfway through the channel?

 

Aside from the Sync of Animation/Sound and Effect etc., Channeled abilities are quite out of whack and unreliable atm.

 

 

Do we need video footage on this? I want to wait until next patch hits addressing the overall "Responsiveness" discussed etc before taking any more footage. After 1.1.0b I think Bioware deserves a little bit of time and "belief"

 

Yup. My SI and JC channeled spells have a rng quality about them as to when the annimation will start and dots tick. I thought that things were getting a little better but the ability delay issues were worse for me today than they have been for a while. It could be because I was leveling on a planet three levels recommended above me and the fights were more demanding so I noticed the problems to a greater degree. On the good side, everything seemed to fire and on the bad you never knew when after you hit the button.

 

I also killed an elite and was left with only about 100 HP when I was done. No dots on me and for some reason, I just died about a second later and the elite reappeared at full health. This happens at times and I am at the point where I feel that I will end up losing any fight if I end up with less than a few hundred HPs when I down the mob. Very frustrating to say the least.

 

I am starting to feel somewhat like a yoyo with the ability delay fixes. At some times I see them and things are better and at others I see little improvement. My internet speed is pretty fast and it seems to happen without regard to the planet population and the number of other players in the area.

 

I am not sure what new footage will do since the old is still being chewed on and the fixes are supposedly still in the works.

[Xcore]

I hope that the 1.1.0b patch wasn't just to mask the issues but actually fix. I do believe that there is a significant improvement in the feeling of responsiveness but at the same time it feels a bit like the same issues persist but are just masked better and simply dont happen as often anymore.

 

I hope 1.1.0b didn't just try to put lipstick on a pig essentially but rather fix the issues entirely.

 

 

Because I believe it to now at least be playble and enjoyable, I will give Bioware some time and see how it is further addressed in 1.1.1. I only hope they got the feedback they needed to truly understand, even though I am highly skeptical of that.

 

 

Looking forward to reviewing 1.1.1

Edited January 30, 2012 by Xcore

[chadwickdale]

Great Thread. The Video is also very well done. If you have friends that you think should read this, get them here asap.

[RabidPopcorn]

I'd also like to add that there is also a delay experienced when typing, this is different from chat latency - my understanding of chat latency is the time-lag between when you press enter to send out the chat and the moment when the chat is seen on the screen; the issue here is not that but rather the time-lag between keystrokes and the moment when the letters appear on the screen.

 

In WoW (for illustration purposes only, please don't flame me), whatever you typed was instantly transposed onto the computer screen; however, in SWTOR, there seems to be a slight delay whenever I type or backspace, making it just a little bit more time-consuming to chat. While this is only a matter of a few seconds or milliseconds, it really adds up to become annoying.

 

This applies to casting/using of abilities too - the time from the moment you click the ability to the time the ability is actually carried out feels rather unresponsive; and I don't think it is a latency issue because I don't have a high ping.

 

As such, I'm wondering if anyone else from the SWTOR community has experienced - or understands - what I have just described above? Also, what may be the cause of this and how may I fix it?

 

Anyway, I'm not ruling out the possibility that it might be due to my slow computer hardware; but if this computer can run other games like Battlefield 3 smoothly and without the above-mentioned issues then I find that possibility unlikely.

 

Thanks for reading.

[Starglide]

They definitely ninja patched the animations with this update.

 

Slick BioWare, you don't fool me. Touche

 

Very responsive. Instant abilities like Blade Storm execute and complete almost immediately.

[NecroSkelly]

Have not played much since yesterdays patch , but i think my mercs unload ability is not getting "stuck" (not firing but cast goes off) as it used to.

[Nonof]

Hi!

It's still unplayable for me...

My character still "hesitates" before attacking when I spam a key. And sometimes the gcd is used even if the attack didn't do what it was supposed to do.

 

Still have the problem noticed in this video :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbFgyeRFbdo&context=C3d50270ADOEgsToPDskJYu1y-3uG_uWyCstMK7nMz

 

not for 9 seconds as in the video, but during at least 1 second, my character "hesitates".

Please fix it as soon as possible. During a pvp party, there's no place for luck.

[Turando]

I am sure Xcore is already working on this, but now that 1.1.1 has hit with additional ability delay fixes, curious what are people's thoughts on how live servers are performing. I didn't get a chance to play much yesterday or try things out.

[Xcore]

Sadly I work all day and only had 2-3 hours so far with 1.1.1 so I really cannot say how greatly Improved it is or if at all. I did test last night and still most noticeable Issues for me are the inconsistencies in channeled abilities, easily replicated when used In a tight rotation.

 

So yea, of course let's test over the next days and weekend and give some feedback here.

 

 

I should note though that its very reassuring that Bioware seems to be taking this very serious and is really looking at solutions and improvements. I am "very, very, far" from a SW:TOR fanboi but i must say that I am pleased with 1.1.0b and seemingly 1.1.1 due to the dedication and attention they're giving gameplay.