Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[DarthKhaos]

Isn't the issue currently being dealt with where the last patch fixed some?

 

You do know this last patch was PART of the next release?

 

 

 

And Starglide perhaps it's time you take a break from... Everything. You seem stressed.

Edited January 25, 2012 by DarthKhaos

[DigitalDreamz]

Just to pop in here, does anyone with a dual core cpu have the ability delay? Thought I read somewhere that dual core cpus had some far off strange issue with the game.

 

When I mount my speeder and the cast time gets to 0.00 I move forward but it cancels the mount. When I heal and the activation bar is at 0.00 and I move I have cancelled my heal.

 

Problem still there.

[TheHeadCapper]

No it has not. And I refuse to commend BioWare for making abilities function. Anybody saying that the issue is fixed (or for the most part is), really needs to read the patch notes. Me and many others have been reporting the issue for well over 7 months now. Why should they get a pat on the back for finally prioritizing something they were so ignorant to ignore numerous times.

 

.

 

I'm giving them a pat on the back because it's a fix i wanted to see implemented and am happy how it plays now. Whether you get a cookie or not because you reported 7 months ago is irrelvant.

 

It isn't unheard of for a company to not acknowledge a problem while they work t ofix it in the background. I see it all the time at the software company i work for. Something like this I would guess would take more than a few weeks to fix and in fact could take months.

 

Maybe it didn't and they just started recently, i don't know and i don't really care because it works now.

[Griminal]

Just to pop in here, does anyone with a dual core cpu have the ability delay? Thought I read somewhere that dual core cpus had some far off strange issue with the game.

 

When I mount my speeder and the cast time gets to 0.00 I move forward but it cancels the mount. When I heal and the activation bar is at 0.00 and I move I have cancelled my heal.

 

Problem still there.

 

They may but I don't think it has anything to do with the delay. I have a quad and I've been experiencing issues and still am.

[archifikoss]

The point is in street fighter and any fighting game responsiveness is huge, near complete perfection. When you hit a button it happens... Immediately... there Is no .2 delay. You're not understanding the threadline and arguement. It isnt about the Grenade "immediately" hitting the targer without traveltime...

 

And to further what Xcore said, what he means is that the minute you hit that punch key in Street Fighter, Guile, blanka, Honda, Ryu or whatever will immediately begin his punch animation, which will connect at the precise moment irrespective of it's "cast time", so to speak, with well timed audio, and will in general feel fluid.

 

In a similar situation in TOR pre-patch, the animation of the punch would take a few milliseconds to actually begin, often not coinciding with the time the damage and sometimes its sound occurs, and sometimes you wouldn't even throw the punch.

[DirtyDozen]

Just to pop in here, does anyone with a dual core cpu have the ability delay? Thought I read somewhere that dual core cpus had some far off strange issue with the game.

 

When I mount my speeder and the cast time gets to 0.00 I move forward but it cancels the mount. When I heal and the activation bar is at 0.00 and I move I have cancelled my heal.

 

Problem still there.

 

Here Georg said they believe the issue is worse on a dual core cpu:

 

http://www.swtor.com/blog/georg-zoeller-gives-update-ability-delay

[Urkanan]

Just to pop in here, does anyone with a dual core cpu have the ability delay? Thought I read somewhere that dual core cpus had some far off strange issue with the game.

.

 

I play most of the time on a fairly low-end laptop in terms of gaming capability. Recently I got frequent access to a proper gaming rig and my experience playing the same toon (only PvE gameplay) on both computers is:

 

Ability delay issues exist in both rigs, but performance issues on laptop (dual-core) make it so much worse:

 

Ability stutter

 

Ability misfiring

 

GCD triggers but ability doesn't happen (no animation, no damage, no long cooldown trigger despite the GCD went off)

 

Animation-related delay

 

Melee dodge delay.

 

 

All of these happen way more often, and are more annoying when they occur, on my laptop. The fix seems to have improved laptop gameplay a lot, not so much on gaming rig. A few things go smoother, but glitches and clunkyness is till noticeable for me.

[Nindoriel]

For me it's gotten better since the last patch.

[enrimm]

Just to pop in here, does anyone with a dual core cpu have the ability delay? Thought I read somewhere that dual core cpus had some far off strange issue with the game.

 

When I mount my speeder and the cast time gets to 0.00 I move forward but it cancels the mount. When I heal and the activation bar is at 0.00 and I move I have cancelled my heal.

 

Problem still there.

It's not a delay per-say, it's that they designed the game so the animations take precedence over the cast bar. Which is my biggest issue with the game.

 

The cast time on the speeder may be .45 seconds but because of the animation it takes closer to 1 second to actually mount up. It's that way with other abilities as well.

[StevenStarkill]

Game still prioritizes animations, who knows if they'll ever fix that. For example, play a Sith Sorcerer and cast Lightning Strike then immediately follow it up with Force Lightning.

 

Or better yet, hit Recklessness and then hit Force Lightning immediately after. The game is still trying to animate Recklessness so Force Lightning acts like it's channeling(and starts the gcd)...but no dmg.

Edited January 25, 2012 by StevenStarkill

[Rigota]

Still far from fixed, its still the same as before patch for me(marauder).

Op made such a good post btw.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Rigota

[Wickedcat]

Maybe animation stutter and ability delay is 2 different thing, and they kinda fixed a bit of ability delay, but the animation stutter is still there, so those abilities cant be cast properly

[TheRealDestian]

WoW is not the only but it may be the best, it certainly is the most identifiable as its by far the most popular, using it as primary example makes perfect sense. I have never played DDO for example but I could list EvE Online as being amazingly precise and responsive as well... but it stops there, I had serious issues with any other MMO...

 

Aion was also on that list. FFXIV was not and never will be because they refuse to host the servers anywhere but Japan...

 

As for the topic, the biggest improvement I've seen is this: pre-patch, it took forever for a gunslinger to get into cover in warzones. Now, when you hit the button, the cover happens almost immediately.

 

It's not completely perfect, but it's infinitely better than it was pre-patch.

 

Also, a thought for those who insist they notice no lag: has anyone considered the possibility that some hardware may have the issue while other hardware specs don't?

[StrykerOne]

Lastly (these i can sympathize with), people arguing that animations are more important than responsive gameplay. Well look, everyone here wants great animations, greater than those in WoW but not at the cost of gameplay.

 

The fact that you believe animations over gameplay is nice is irrelevant, you should try to understand thay no game and especially no MMO has ever become a success when taking that route of Animations over Gameplay. It is best if Bioware can preserve great animations and match WoWs level of gameplay but if one has to be chosen It must be Gameplay.

 

Why is it hard to grasp the deeper consequences of choosing animations over gameplay? If you do this you will never be able to match WoWs success... you'll turn the game into a niche just like all the other MMOs have gotten into for many varying reasons.

 

I honestly think part of the problem is that high-end competitive WoW players are expecting the same feel from TOR rather than being willing to learn a new system with new rules. I briefly played WoW but never really got into it... the MMO I mainly played was City of Heroes. So while WoW players are complaining about sluggish combat response I'm actually finding it amazingly responsive... in CoH every attack roots you for the full 1-3+ second animation. There's no such thing as an instant attack or an attack that can be used while moving. There's no such thing as an interrupt or positional attack. Even most melee attacks take a second and a half or more to animate, and they don't do any damage until the animation finishes (at which time they do hit, even if the target has run 50 yards away and ducked behind a wall during the animation). That doesn't make CoH a bad game... it's actually very fun. It's just a completely different playstyle than WoW.

 

So what if, by design, "instant" attacks in ToR are supposed to actually wait for the animation to play before affecting the target? That doesn't mean it's a bad game, it just means you adapt your playstyle to account for the fact that when you stun someone you aren't actually going to stun them for a quarter second or so and you won't be able to move around for a quarter second after that. As long as the total animation delay is shorter than the GCD it won't affect when your next ability goes off at all, it will just change the "feel" of combat from "I magically kicked him in a single microsecond and am instantly back on my feet" to "I start to throw a kick, it connects 0.2 seconds later, and then 0.3 seconds after that I regain my balance and can run around". Frankly, the second option seems far more realistic to me, since even "instant" abilities should take a small amount of time.

 

Of course that does mean another level of class balancing needs to be done. If a Smuggler's stun takes 0.2 seconds to actually affect the target and keeps the Smuggler stuck in the animation for 0.5 seconds total then the Imperial Agent's stun also needs to take effect after 0.2 seconds and take 0.5 seconds total to complete. That's one thing CoH messed up on... they initially balanced powers around endurance use and recharge time but ignored cast time (animation length), so some attacks had unusually good or bad DPS when used in a seamless attack chain. But as long as all non-channeled animations are shorter than the GCD (or the power is specifically balanced around taking longer than the GCD to cast) and animation delays are equal for the Republic and Empire version of a class then the system can not only work well, it can be better than WoW because you can have responsive combat that still looks good.

 

Of course, to get there it does need to be responsive, in the sense that all abilities should start the instant they are activated (or the instant the GCD is finished if you queue them) and we should never have ability "misfires" where something animates but doesn't actually work. I'd also like to see the queue changed so that the last ability queued overwrites any others, because queuing up one attack and then needing to switch to something else before it fires off and not being able to is occasionally annoying. But having every ability take a little time to go off instead of being truly instant? That's hardly going to break the game, and at least for me actually makes the experience better because it's more realistic. Just make sure animation times are balanced so everyone's on an even playing field and let people adapt.

[Xcore]

I honestly think part of the problem is that high-end competitive WoW players are expecting the same feel from TOR rather than being willing to learn a new system with new rules. I briefly played WoW but never really got into it... the MMO I mainly played was City of Heroes. So while WoW players are complaining about sluggish combat response I'm actually finding it amazingly responsive... in CoH every attack roots you for the full 1-3+ second animation. There's no such thing as an instant attack or an attack that can be used while moving. There's no such thing as an interrupt or positional attack. Even most melee attacks take a second and a half or more to animate, and they don't do any damage until the animation finishes (at which time they do hit, even if the target has run 50 yards away and ducked behind a wall during the animation). That doesn't make CoH a bad game... it's actually very fun. It's just a completely different playstyle than WoW.

 

So what if, by design, "instant" attacks in ToR are supposed to actually wait for the animation to play before affecting the target? That doesn't mean it's a bad game, it just means you adapt your playstyle to account for the fact that when you stun someone you aren't actually going to stun them for a quarter second or so and you won't be able to move around for a quarter second after that. As long as the total animation delay is shorter than the GCD it won't affect when your next ability goes off at all, it will just change the "feel" of combat from "I magically kicked him in a single microsecond and am instantly back on my feet" to "I start to throw a kick, it connects 0.2 seconds later, and then 0.3 seconds after that I regain my balance and can run around". Frankly, the second option seems far more realistic to me, since even "instant" abilities should take a small amount of time.

 

All of that means its a bad game... the basis cannot support competitive play but more importantly it can never have the same complexity in PvE, PvP or even RP as a fully responsive system such as WoW.

 

I am sorry to say, but you have outlined the reason why games such as CoH/V have not attained the status that WoW has but in fact have always remained "niche"..

 

Please do not argue that an unresponsive and sluggish/slow/imprecise system is one to adapt to. This is a flaw, not a feature...

 

in SuperMario, if Mario has an animation to complete which prevents him from "jumping", the gaming industry would not look as it does today...

 

I'm not sure what to really say to you, I realize you have most of your experience with CoH/V and not WoW (and that is perfectly, 100% fine...) in fact, it is completely fine that you prefer CoH/V to WoW but you must simply admit that a system such as that can never be the basis of a game that is on the level of WoW's success...

 

 

 

A successful game "must" be fully responsive... 100%, no if, but, when, how... no matter what animation, sound, graphics etc etc... 100% responsiveness to input from player is a must to feel connected to your avatar and to feel in full control.

 

This is the foundational basis of all "higher level" or "competitive" play but also a subconcious level of satisfaction from simply "walking around in an Inn RPing" through "World First Killing a Boss" to "$100,000 Game Tournament Final in 3v3".

Edited January 26, 2012 by Xcore

[Froth]

All of that means its a bad game... the basis cannot support competitive play but more importantly it can never have the same complexity in PvE, PvP or even RP as a fully responsive system such as WoW.

 

I am sorry to say, but you have outlined the reason why games such as CoH/V have not attained the status that WoW has but in fact have always remained "niche"..

 

Please do not argue that an unresponsive and sluggish/slow/imprecise system is one to adapt to. This is a flaw, not a feature...

 

in SuperMario, if Mario has an animation to complete which prevents him from "jumping", the gaming industry would not look as it does today...

 

I'm not sure what to really say to you, I realize you have most of your experience with CoH/V and not WoW (and that is perfectly, 100% fine...) in fact, it is completely fine that you prefer CoH/V to WoW but you must simply admit that a system such as that can never be the basis of a game that is on the level of WoW's success...

 

 

 

A successful game "must" be fully responsive... 100%, no if, but, when, how... no matter what animation, sound, graphics etc etc... 100% responsiveness to input from player is a must to feel connected to your avatar and to feel in full control.

 

This is the foundational basis of all "higher level" or "competitive" play but also a subconcious level of satisfaction from simply "walking around in an Inn RPing" through "World First Killing a Boss" to "$100,000 Game Tournament Final in 3v3".

 

Bioware: adapt to crappy gameplay and ability delay, it's a feature

 

People: But, but...some games don't have it, it reallllllly sucks!!!!

 

Bioware: It's a feature DAMNIT!!!! we payed millions for the hero engine source...

 

People: Ya but....but.....it SUXXXXXXXXX!!!

 

Bioware: We are niche(for morons), just get used to it.

[EmeraldArcana]

A successful game "must" be fully responsive... 100%, no if, but, when, how... no matter what animation, sound, graphics etc etc... 100% responsiveness to input from player is a must to feel connected to your avatar and to feel in full control.

 

This is the foundational basis of all "higher level" or "competitive" play but also a subconcious level of satisfaction from simply "walking around in an Inn RPing" through "World First Killing a Boss" to "$100,000 Game Tournament Final in 3v3".

 

Keep in mind though that your very example of Street Fighter in fact illustrates the difference between "ability delay" and "animations". If you execute a Shoryuken with Ryu (using a Fierce punch,, you have committed to that attack. You cannot decide 0.05 seconds later that in fact you wanted to do a low sweep instead - you must wait for the attack to finish.

 

That said, the misleading aspect of SW:TOR is that it has both "animation lock" and "GCD lock". In my opinion (and at least one other person mentioned it already) SW:TOR really does need to settle on either one or the other - not both. If they want to be a GCD-based game, fine. They can do that as long as the animations fit within that GCD and that if your animation is 0.5 seconds, then your ability should be marked as having a 0.5 second cast. Alternatively they could use an animations-based system and the game would possibly resemble a fighting game instead. But trying to do both is a responsiveness nightmare - the UI does not give enough proper feedback to either GCD-based or animation-based combat for anyone to be satisfied with either. Essentially, the player doesn't know if he should listen to the GCD, or if he should instead watch animations. Since the GCD viewpoint is predominant, the player expects that he can take a next action after the GCD is finished. He cannot. Hence, ability delay.

 

But, I think that animation-based is a perfectly valid design as well (though probably not for TOR).

[Putok]

Game still prioritizes animations, who knows if they'll ever fix that. For example, play a Sith Sorcerer and cast Lightning Strike then immediately follow it up with Force Lightning.

 

Or better yet, hit Recklessness and then hit Force Lightning immediately after. The game is still trying to animate Recklessness so Force Lightning acts like it's channeling(and starts the gcd)...but no dmg.

 

This problem is not universal. I made videos WEEKS ago on my Sith sorc showing force lightning doing damage to a target before the lightning strike animation finished, and it still does work that way. In fact, it does several ticks before the animation even starts.

 

 

As you can see, this was a few weeks ago, before yesterday's fix was even live. I think you're having a problem I'm not, or you're confusing animations with damage.

[Putok]

Maybe animation stutter and ability delay is 2 different thing, and they kinda fixed a bit of ability delay, but the animation stutter is still there, so those abilities cant be cast properly

 

There are several more fixes pending, and I believe it was specifically stated that CD errors, GCD errors, and abilities not firing were not patched in this little mini-fix that was deployed this week, and that cast bar accuracy was also going to be improved further in a future fix.

[Xcore]

This problem is not universal. I made videos WEEKS ago on my Sith sorc showing force lightning doing damage to a target before the lightning strike animation finished, and it still does work that way. In fact, it does several ticks before the animation even starts.

 

 

As you can see, this was a few weeks ago, before yesterday's fix was even live. I think you're having a problem I'm not, or you're confusing animations with damage.

 

Thats bad, its shows a lack of animation sync... It gives of a clunky feeling...

[Xcore]

I should note that channeled abilities have a very clunky feel to it, the ticks are not reliably displayed to the castbar. At times the damage or healing appears halfway through the channel while sometimes the same ability works fine... Unreliable.

 

The ticks are also not displaying evenly apart. I'm not convinced that they happen either, wish we had a timestamping combat log....

[Rokrz]

I played a warzone after patch and i have to say i have seen some improvement.

But is far from good yet, so my question is:

Did they say they will work further on it to perfect it or was that all?

Edited January 26, 2012 by Rokrz

[archifikoss]

I played a warzone after patch and i have to say i have seen some improvement.

But is far from good yet, so my question is:

Did they say they will work further on it to perfect it or was that all?

 

They have stated that this patch has only fixed some of the issues. they are still working on it, don't worry I think there may be a link or two in Xcore's updated OP.

[Klarick]

IN MY OPINION thats bad, FOR ME it shows a lack of animation sync... It gives ME a clunky feeling...

 

There you go Xcore, I fixed your statement for you.

 

Level 49 Marauder here. Still no delay or clunky feeling at all. In my opinion, the game runs great, and very responsive. I do hope they clear up your issue. I sincerly do. I want you guys to experience SWTOR just like the rest of us.

[Terko_Koslah]

Just wanted to post something here that represents in some part the issue for me.

 

The fact that when mounting my speeder the speeder pops up and then disappears again. <-- Not good. It should either pop up and stay up or just not pop up at all.