invispoet Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) Yet this part, "they dont want hybrid builds to be viable", remains your concept, not theirs. They provide a reward for optimization in one role through their "hybrid tax" on other less focused builds. That is your reward for sacrificing in other areas to be a specialist. None of that is about encouraging people to be specialists in all areas with one character. It may not be how other games have done it but, I think their answer to players wanting to be "the Best" in multiple arenas would be, "DO the work and make that stable of specialized characters". Fast levelling, different levelling stories, and upcoming legacy abilities all point to their support of this. They flat out said "We don't do hybrid roles" how are you missing that? They also specifically stated there IS NO HYBRID TAX. (at least not the kind used in other games) He flat out said that if you spread your talent points around in multiple trees, you will be LESS powerful. MMORPGS are built around character progression and making your character MORE powerful...why would you choose to be weaker, if one of the primary goals is to be stronger? You're hearing what you want to hear. They designed the game with the intent of you picking a role, and optimizing for it. For some reason, you also fail to understand the fact that dual spec does NOT make you "the best in multiple arenas". You seem to think that the ability to change between 2 specs makes a character a top dpser, top healer, and #1 tank, all at the same time...this just isnt the case. You still have to pick a role, you still have to talent appropriately for that role, and you can still only fill ONE role at a time. The only thing that changes is the amount of time the rest of the group spends waiting on you to change roles. Edited January 22, 2012 by invispoet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoneyBoy Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 For some reason, you also fail to understand the fact that dual spec does NOT make you "the best in multiple arenas". You seem to think that the ability to change between 2 specs makes a character a top dpser, top healer, and #1 tank, all at the same time...this just isnt the case. You still have to pick a role, you still have to talent appropriately for that role, and you can still only fill ONE role at a time. The only thing that changes is the amount of time the rest of the group spends waiting on you to change roles. Good luck getting anyone to understand this... People seem to honestly and fervently believe that dual spec would somehow allow a character to tank, dps, and heal (even though no single AC is capable of that). They also think dual spec would destroy the trinity of DPS, Healer, Tank as if you could somehow do all three AT ONCE during an encounter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erosith Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Wrong. This isn't a WoW clone. If you want WoW, go back and play it, otherwise deal with it. what he said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadgeredMushroom Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Wrong. This isn't a WoW clone. If you want WoW, go back and play it, otherwise deal with it. Oh you sweet little country mouse. Hit level 50 and tell me that with a straight face. The leveling process has a better story than World of Warcraft, sure, but everything will become clear as day to you when you hit the level cap. Frankly, if they're going to copy the same rigid talent tree design that World of Warcraft has (and is abandoning because it doesn't truly give players choice) they could have at least given us the bandage fix that is dual spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoneyBoy Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Frankly, if they're going to copy the same rigid talent tree design that World of Warcraft has (and is abandoning because it doesn't truly give players choice) they could have at least given us the bandage fix that is dual spec. Rofl so true, talent trees look and function the same exact way as WoW's current implementation. Level 50 is the same as Endgame WoW, you do dailies, HMs, pvp for honor (valor here) and then do operations (raids). I really do question the validity of people making these absurd "THIS ISN'T A WOW CLONE" comments and what level they are. I think SWTOR is a great game as is, but there's certainly room for improvement and to deny it isn't like WoW is crazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invispoet Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Rofl so true, talent trees look and function the same exact way as WoW's current implementation. Level 50 is the same as Endgame WoW, you do dailies, HMs, pvp for honor (valor here) and then do operations (raids). I really do question the validity of people making these absurd "THIS ISN'T A WOW CLONE" comments and what level they are. I think SWTOR is a great game as is, but there's certainly room for improvement and to deny it isn't like WoW is crazy In this argument, there really is no right answer. On one hand, there are quite a few things bioware did differently than blizzard. I dont think anyone would argue this point, even those calling the game a 'wow clone'. The crafting/companion systems, as well as the amazingly well done class stories are truly worth playing for in their own right. On the other hand. Both games are designed to give you multiple ways to advance your character once you hit 50. Both games are what developers call "theme park" MMORPGS, in that they try to offer many different things to keep you occupied once you hit max level. Many (to be honest, nearly ALL) of the activities SWTOR uses in this respect are present in WoW (and were present in most games BEFORE WoW). Calling this game a WoW clone is like calling WoW an everquest or Final Fantasy XI clone. Partially true, but also partially not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadezilla Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) I would love dual spec within an advanced class. I don't care if it isn't wow and I don't care that back in the day in EQ and UO we walked bare feet in 6 feet of snow up hill both ways lol. Edited January 22, 2012 by Shadezilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlickDevlan Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) As someone that enjoys pvp healing im not going to try and level in a healing tree. There really is no valid reason why dual spec isnt in the game right now. Give me one reason why this game shouldnt have shipped with dual spec available? because its not needed. You have companions, you already can respec. If you don't want to level in heal spec, and you don't want to pay to respec, that's a YOU problem, not a game problem. Edited January 22, 2012 by SlickDevlan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiricahua Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Agreed. Bioware has been sitting on their hands too much. I can't believe they didn't hire somebody away from other companies who had a solid background in pvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surakis Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 companions dont make leveling a healer any better, dps still is faster Healers w/companions seem to be able to take on harder content much easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surakis Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Frankly, if they're going to copy the same rigid talent tree design that World of Warcraft has (and is abandoning because it doesn't truly give players choice) they could have at least given us the bandage fix that is dual spec. You not actually saying the new system coming to WoW has more choice... are you... no... you really.... no.. you're not... no... just no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tic- Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 The game should have shipped with mods, macros, RvR, more endgame, dual targetting, player bounties, legacy intact, arenas, cross faction everything, server transfers, rainbows and lollipops...... uh yea.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellraged Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 i have NEVER played a MMO with dual spec... and i have played them all. ok i lie i played rift. but other than that, nope. not even WoW when it first came out.. play the class you want or dont. you wanna heal play a healer you wanna dps play a dps not so hard ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enbee Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I've been following a lot of threads about dual-spec, and not once have I seen an argument _against_ it that makes any sense (or is coherent). It was a great addition to WoW, Bioware should just learn from their competitors and add it in ASAP, done deal. "Decisions should matter" is my personal favorite nonsense argument, as if adding dual-spec changes anything to that, you can allready respec whenever you want to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TipsyDrow Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Didn't Bioware say they didn't put in dual spec, because they didn't want it in their game? Nope, here's what they about dual specs pre-launch in a dev Q&A blog. This is a direct quote. Q: Since it has been clearly stated that there will not be dual specs for characters in the game, can you explain your philosophy behind the skill trees and how you are taking into account players that want to be able to play PvP and PvE content on the same character? - illumineart A: Dual Speccing is something we want to add soon after launch. Also, features like Guard, PvP Taunt, Resolve, etc. work to narrow the gap between PvP and PvE specialized skills (i.e. a +Block skill would be helpful in both PvE and PvP). They want to add dual specs. Will they? Who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surakis Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I've been following a lot of threads about dual-spec, and not once have I seen an argument _against_ it that makes any sense (or is coherent). It was a great addition to WoW, Bioware should just learn from their competitors and add it in ASAP, done deal. "Decisions should matter" is my personal favorite nonsense argument, as if adding dual-spec changes anything to that, you can allready respec whenever you want to You will never see an argument that makes sense because you want it so bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enbee Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) i have NEVER played a MMO with dual spec... and i have played them all. ok i lie i played rift. but other than that, nope. not even WoW when it first came out.. play the class you want or dont. you wanna heal play a healer you wanna dps play a dps not so hard ... Ah, you're a great example of a nonsense argument, thank you! First of all I think you're misunderstanding what dual spec entails, so let me explain, cause I'm such a nice guy, you're lucky! You know how there are classes that can fulfill 2 roles yeah, like tanking and dps or dps and healing. You see they might be in a guild, a guild that raids! Now while in raids some boss fights require a re-shuffling of roles (1 more healer or 1 more tank for certain fights for instance). Currently (and in the past in wow), 1 of your hybrid guys would run and travel to the respeccing NPC and go reshuffle his spec, then change his hotbars completely around. This basically involves having 7-15 people standing around twiddling their thumbs waiting for this to finish. Quite the buzz-kill right? I agree! Now with dual-spec, you would press a button (When out of combat of course, you sill billy you!), after channeling for a second, the player who pressed the button will have changed to his other pre-set talent spec and hotbar setup *poof* like magic. No more waiting for no reason and much cake was had by all. The end. TLDR; Hybrids do not in fact become destroyers of worlds with dual-spec. In fact it changes nothing to the game, other than make everyone slightly happier! Edited January 22, 2012 by enbee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invispoet Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 because its not needed. You have companions, you already can respec. If you don't want to level in heal spec, and you don't want to pay to respec, that's a YOU problem, not a game problem. Electricity isnt needed either. That doesnt mean having it around makes things worse. If we used your mentality of "because it's not needed", we'd still be living in caves using stone tools (actually no tools, but yeah) Adding dual spec to the game improves EVERY aspect of group play, and hurts NO ONE. Improving 90% of the game, while not hurting anyone? That, in and of itself, is a reason to add it: It improves the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enbee Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 You will never see an argument that makes sense because you want it so bad. Try me, you might sway me, you seem like a clever person/thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaVolpex Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 you get one free respec, there are pelnty of talent calculators and builds out there already no , game shouldnt have dual spec, it should only have paid respecs, HOWEVER, they should cap the respec cost @ 75k or something like that (wich is peanuts compared to what yo umake in a day at level 50) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moricthian Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Duel Spec will make this game exactly like WOW. If you don't take into account questing, mounts, PvP, combat, healers, tanks, DPS, dungeons, raiding, hearthstones, flightpaths, talent trees, monthly fee, loot etc... SWTOR and WOW are completely different unless you add convenience features that save time, then they are the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invispoet Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 You will never see an argument that makes sense because you want it so bad. Regardless of how bad he wants it, every argument AGAINST dual spec has been "it will ruin the game", "it's not needed", or "it dumbs down the game", or some variant thereof. None of those statements are true in any way, shape, or form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enbee Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 you get one free respec, there are pelnty of talent calculators and builds out there already no , game shouldnt have dual spec, it should only have paid respecs, HOWEVER, they should cap the respec cost @ 75k or something like that (wich is peanuts compared to what yo umake in a day at level 50) The problem isn't money primarily(though it does add up if you fill 2 roles within a raid), it's mostly time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invispoet Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 The problem isn't money primarily(though it does add up if you fill 2 roles within a raid), it's mostly time. This x1000 The only thing dual spec does is let us do what we already can, with less downtime (specifically for the 3/7/15 people that are waiting for one person to respec). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpectreSD Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 What others have said is true, Duel spec will reduce the quality of a characters performance, and limit their ability to focus on one spec. It's simple logic really, people perform better on tasks when there's only one task to focus on. To put simple, during level 50 end game raids and content, would you rather have a "dedicated" and "main" healer that has been leveling his healer since day 1 for over a year or so? or an "off" healer / secondary specc'd healer thats been switching on and off between his DPS spec? Same goes for tanks and DPS. I want "DEDICATED SPECIALIZATIONS" in my groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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