STOP copying WoW and start copying DAoC

[Vealage]

Everything I liked about WoW is already in this game, or has been improved on by this game. PvE in SWToR is actually pretty great IMO.

 

Everything I liked about DAoC is missing I understand they can't do three faction PvP right now, but lets be honest, Bounty Hunters, and Smugglers shouldn't belong to a faction anyway. They could easily make a faction out of the Hutts or maybe the Mandalorians themselves.

[jrmhpeters]

As much as i loved DAoC (prior to the expansions)... i have to say that original, non care-bear UO pvp > DAoC.

 

Anyone else remember how much switching from dialup to broadband helped? Hah... good times.

[Cowflab]

Couldn't have said it better.

 

Bioware seems to be going that route for the most part with rated WZs and implementing future faction incentives to balance out ilum. All that remains is to make champ gear easier to obtain to keep everyone competitive. With those changes, I honestly believe that PvP would pick up in this game 10 fold.

 

Champ gear shouldn't be a luck based rng endeavor.. It should take roughly a week to fill out a set(I realize this happens for some, but not the majority) and the rng/skill based set should be Bm. Bioware seems to have screwed the pooch by releasing all their sets at the same time and making it a time investment. Don't let anyone tell you any different in regards to SWTOR PvP. Time>anything else in the current model, and much to the dismay of the basement dwellers, not everyone has 12 hours a day to devout to a game. Just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should be granted an obscene advantage over those that don't.

 

TLDR; balance also consists of keeping EVERYONE competitve with a bottom teir that is easy to obtain. Not just class balance.

[Kolbenito]

yea, everyone keeps trying to copy it..

 

hows it working out?

 

I am responding to this specifically because I know why I personally do not enjoy other MMOs as much as I have WoW.

 

The combat. They borrow features from WoW similar to how WoW borrowed heavily from EQ2. What they never get right though is smooth gameplay.

 

Every MMO developer should do themselves a massive favor and not write another line of code or design a single element for their game until they can meet these requirements.

- Animations should NEVER take priority over actions.

- Steady smooth FPS and ability responsiveness with 80 people fighting and casting spells in your proximity (Epic 2 hour back and forth on the Alliance bridge in AV as reference).

- If combat does not flow from action to action it is bad. Start over.

- Combat needs to be visceral and clean, instant casts should feel instant even at 150ms.

- Strafing animations should keep you facing forward, it does not mean face right 90 degrees and move that direction. Face forward and move 90 degrees is what strafing is ffs

 

Hey, I'll admit it. I would have loved DAoC in it's day but I didn't even know it existed. At the time I was an FPS player, Quake 3 specifically. Aside from the 3 faction RVR I don't really see a point in copying what they did.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Kolbenito

[Trushott]

What are the 3 main lessons from DAoC?

 

1. Three factions. Always three factions. Not two, but three. Vital.
    
    
   
2. Caps on every single stat. Ability to cap all stats through crafted gear or raid gear. Your choice.
    
    
   
3. Meaningful objectives in a large world zone that people care about. Relics mattered. Access to Darkness Falls mattered. Bonus money/xp earned in the frontier mattered.
   

 

And yet somehow, every single MMO since DAoC (including Warhammer) fails to incorporate any of the above three things.

 

Amazing.

 

 

THIS

 

 

particularly number 1

 

which SWTOR could do very VERY easily with mandolorians / Nuetrals / or any other thing they could think up ... and still make attempt at mirroring which they still do not have exactly right

 

this would spice SWTOR way up and and infinately playability and no side can ever dominate in a 3 faction system it just cant happen

[Sabbathius]

Fact 1: WOW PvP Sucked from day 1 till now....

 

Bull. WoW PvP was a blast until Summer 2005.

[bantros]

Never played the DAoC but from watching videos it is more of a "proper" PVP than WoW or TOR, both of which are pretty poor.

 

If you want PVP in an MMO go try EvE, better than WoW and TOR put together and doubled, takes actual skill to pilot the ship around, use decent fittings and coordinate with your Corp/Alliance. Huge battles, small skirmishes, taking and losing territories, wormholes and each of the 4 factions are pretty distinct and use different weapons.

 

But it's still a hotkey basher and dependant on skills trained and that's the major problem with PVP in any MMO although it isn't quite as obvious with EvE. Most of the time it isn't down to player skill, just gear and level and I suppose that's why people including me like it. Nothing better than beating bad players with better gear than you

[Ashanor]

WoW PvP during The Burning Crusade was and is still the pinnacle of MMO PvP. Anyone who thinks otherwise has got some coke bottle sized rose tinted glasses on. As far as PvP is concerned, it was that era of WoW that made it the juggernaught it has become. It has steadily went downhill since, but I cannot begin to remember the last time I had so much fun in an MMO.

 

1. Easy to get slightly lower teir gear to keep everyone competitive.

 

2. Random world PvP(although purposeless) for faction pride.

 

3. Rated arenas for the "skilled" players to show their stuff and get slightly better gear.

 

4. Team battles and 1v1s that took longer than 4-5 seconds to win or lose(read: strategy)

 

That era did have its faults, but by and large was the golden age of MMO PvP.

 

Umm, no. You think this because you never experienced a good RvR system. WoW PvP was decent during TBC, but it can't possibly be perfect without a meaningful RvR system.

[Proppa]

DAOC made PvP less of a grind, being good / competative was far more exciting. PvE to be honest, amazes me that people enjoy it and I don't mean that to be disrespectful or pretentious. But they always react exactly the same. Every "boss" in this game, can be explained in about 3 sentences on what to do, how to do it and when to do it. Predictability turns into repetition, repetition can be one of the conditions of insanity.

 

PvP, especially in DAOC was forever changing and evolving. New players/classes appeared, new abilities were gained (not based on gear). The focus was never about who had the best gear (well to a degree, but you could "gear out" within a couple of hours, so that you were ready for PvP). It was much more about tactics, how well you knew the abilities you had and how you applied them.

 

The excitement I got from DAOC, much like when I got Tactical Nukes in Call of Duty with only my gun. Knowing that few have done it, made it feel more exciting and rewarding.

 

Giving the uniqueness of the classes, the variety every group could be different. Knowing that at anytime the hole situation could change if another group came over the hill, or you messed up and ran into the zerg.

 

SWTOR, doesn't have any of that feeling. Huttball, just can't take it "seriously". Warzones in general aren't exciting. Ilum is just a joke.

 

The biggest problem, is that with only 2 factions, if 1 is greatly outnumbered that can pretty much spell the end of PvP. Whereas 3 factions, if 1 had a large popularity, the other 2 could work together etc.

[russellcsf]

Could not agree more. It's puzzling, beyond imagination why these companies keep trying to clone WoW. WoW is unique in its own limited sense. So please, no more WoW clones!!! Everyone who tried that, failed miserably, including Mythic with WAR, or what was left of that genius team. Another failed attempt was Rift, horrible, laughable endgame, with pretty leveling system and good graphics.

 

DAOC is the true MMO school. It's the old school of MMO's. WoW cloned almost every aspect of itself from DAOC but surprisingly enough, not the freakin PvP!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

For those who do not know about DAOC, plain and simple:

 

-3 rival realms instead of the failed and boring 2. This adds great great dynamics, beyond what anyone who didnt play it can entertain.

 

- Tons of incredibly balanced classes for each of the realms, and more importantly, NO FRIGGING MIRRORS besides just one class (mauler) which is the same in all realms!!! Each class is unique , has its 3 different paths (sounds familiar huh?) , and requires unique styles of gameplay, way more than every other mmo.

 

- and now the most important thing. Endless lasting appeal!!!! That's what makes a mmo great. When you hit lvl 50 you have that rewarding realization that you barely started playing the game. 13 realm ranks which are gradually tougher to reach, that really makes your character way tougher, but yet, you have to rely on your skill as not to be killed by low RR's. That said, low RR chars can have the same ammount of fun that a veteran realm rank 13 can.

 

I could list what is awesome about daoc all day long. All in all , its a real shame no one understands that the money is on DAOC's pvp system. A perfect game would have SWTOR pve with DAOC pvp. Oh well, lets keep waiting for a good pvp, maybe GW2?!?!?!

 

sry, english is not my main language!

Edited January 29, 2012 by russellcsf

[Proppa]

Yeah, that was always what amazed me about DAOC. 45 Classes, all with ATLEAST 3 specs each. That's ATLEAST 150 different combinations. Then you have things like the Tri-Spec Healer which just shows how diverse the game was.

 

150 different spec choices, with potentially many more spec possiblities. How they managed to balance that (granted, class changes are forever occuring with DAOC).

[zefalcon]

daoc has the best pvp system ever designed, from beta i was playing it, and i still have 2 active accounts.

 

10 years and rolling, and daoc still pulls me back to it, this game needs the same pvp system, a massive open world to do what you want.

 

illum is total crap compared to The Frontiers in daoc.

 

nuf said.

[Proppa]

Zefalcon who and what do you play? We should get a sticky with "DAOC who I am/was". I'm the former Paladin Team Lead, but I play all 3 realms. Proppa the Paladin, Seershear the Shaman, Prophesy etc! lol.

[Cowflab]

Umm, no. You think this because you never experienced a good RvR system. WoW PvP was decent during TBC, but it can't possibly be perfect without a meaningful RvR system.

 

Who said perfect? You prefer rvr, enter rose tinted glasses. Tbc PvP remains the pinnacle of MMO PvP. No other single aspect of an MMO has ever brought in more subscribers. The thing that ruined wow PvP was gear rat races, win trading/carry teams because of flaws in the rating system resets, and BURST. Emphasis on the last part.

 

Objective based rvr will always be flawed and an extremely small niche because of time investments and faction imbalances. I personally loved WAR until the death squads came about due in large part to laxidazical class balancing. DAoC was a niche, and not a very successful one at that. It doesn't get any more simple than that.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Cowflab

[Proppa]

It wasn't just about "RvR", the Agramon island played for great 8v8 fights. You could run solo, duo, small scale, grouped, zergs etc.

 

Best action was when each realm had a "port" to one of the other realms. So you would get ALL soloers, duo's, small scale, groups and zergs roaming around that realm generally. So as 8 you could fight 16 and if you were good you could win. It wasn't about entering an Arena, knowing that your up against exactly the same number of players. That takes the fun out of it. The uncertainty, of wether you engaged in a fight that you MAY have to pull off and run if things started to get too heated. Or you picked the back of the zerg off as they approcached a keep.

 

I RARELY took part in "Siege" in daoc, unless on my Wizard to farm rps. I would spend alot of time doing 8 man groups.....

[DarthVespid]

As I agree with the OP and was a HUGE player/fan of DAOC we all have to realize the one factor that set Blizzard apart and why all aspiring game Developers look to their business model...

 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

It speaks louder than quality and standards!

[russellcsf]

Another aspec of PvP that is annoying in WoW clones is the endless button mashing, zero skill, "heal through the mechanics" , zero brains kind of dynamics. In DAOC, a fight can be decided in 5 seconds, its like a turbo mode chess game in which one well thought move from 1 of the players in the group can decide the battle. The casting interrupt system is a true gem, a caster or healer is forced to be skilled in positioning , kiting/cc'ing, and using the quickcast (non-interruptible casting) cooldowns wisely as to succeed, for every time they receive considerable damage they are interrupted.

[Elwacko]

Shadowbane PvP! I wanna burn someones city to the ground, and steal all their loot!

[BlackSpin]

Who said perfect? You prefer rvr, enter rose tinted glasses. Tbc PvP remains the pinnacle of MMO PvP. No other single aspect of an MMO has ever brought in more subscribers. The thing that ruined wow PvP was gear rat races, win trading/carry teams because of flaws in the rating system resets, and BURST. Emphasis on the last part.

 

Objective based rvr will always be flawed and an extremely small niche because of time investments and faction imbalances. I personally loved WAR until the death squads came about due in large part to laxidazical class balancing. DAoC was a niche, and not a very successful one at that. It doesn't get any more simple than that.

 

Not sure how you can say DAoC was not successful. Realm abilities, and what you spent your points on is what really made the game, imo. Therefore, anyone you met out in RvR could have completely different realm abilities than the the next. For example, as a Scout I trained MOS 5, which allowed me to see stealthers from farther away. I was the only one in group with it, and allowed me to let them know to get ready... I truly believe if DAoC upgraded the graphics engine as time progressed - AND had the advertising as WoW did, it'd still be a competitor.

Edited January 29, 2012 by BlackSpin

[Proppa]

Also, DAOC 10 years ago, had quite a big subscription base on its release (over 500k), which if memory serves, was around the time Broadband started to be rolled out (atleast in the UK). So there wasn't as many "online gaming" communities then as there are now. Now, almost every kid you see has a phone, an xbox or pc and plays games etc.

 

So, given the advancements in technology and such, I would say DAOC for 10 years ago did quite well given the circumstances.

 

DAOC 2, with the right advertisement, graphics update etc could be a massively popular game. Although it probably is a "niche" because many people aren't interested in "competative PVP", they like to think they are with "Warzones and Arenas" but there is a world of difference in Competative PVP and casual.

[mitigated]

I recently reactivated my account in DAOC.... the graphics are horrible compared to current standards, but i will be damned if i didnt sit there and play it for hours because of the SMOOTH combat system and the actual FUN that was running around the Frontiers, taking and defending keeps, and a few decent 8v8 slugfests.

 

 

I miss week long relic raid invasions

[russellcsf]

 

I RARELY took part in "Siege" in daoc, unless on my Wizard to farm rps. I would spend alot of time doing 8 man groups.....

 

word!

[russellcsf]

 

DAOC 2, with the right advertisement, graphics update etc could be a massively popular game. Although it probably is a "niche" because many people aren't interested in "competative PVP", they like to think they are with "Warzones and Arenas" but there is a world of difference in Competative PVP and casual.

 

Couldnt say it better! The guy who said DAOC wasnt successful is simply wrong. 10 years and rolling, even if only one really full server, its quite a feat for a virtually unknown (till WAR) company with no warcraft 3 hit to boost their mmo up.

[RealAeiouy]

Daoc pvp was a mess. Stop holding it up as something awesome. 100k people played a game where at one point a single player could lock down an opposing army.

 

Anyone proclaiming daocs greatness just exposes themselves as living in the pvp dark ages.

[russellcsf]

Do you know what a DaoC player is?

 

An Everquest player who thinks he is a pvper.

 

DAOC is a piece of **** and anyone who thinks different feel free to go to http://darkageofcamelot.com/ and play your precious DaoC.

 

DAOC SUCKS

 

ofc , DAOC , TODAY is unfriendly to noobs. So dont bother suggesting that. Noobs would be turned down by the graphics right away. And virtually no one would babysit any noob anymore. The point is, if you played DAOC by its golden age, the game is still for you, if you don't , it sucks to be you, you missed the golden age of pvp, and hence , you think WoW has awesome pvp . All in all, you're a dumb troll, sorry.