No, You May Not Roll on Items for Another Class and Strip Out the Mods

[Trushott]

I get that. But this general topic has come up in the past. And in those discussions, I've tried to make the point that there will be situations where one class is rolling need for an item and another class is rolling need for a mod. And the example I tend to use is +Crit. Because there are benefits to +Crit for both healers and DPS.

 

And so there will be a situation where two classes NEED the item for an upgrade. One might wear the item. One might mod strip it. But the need is genuine.

 

And people still flip out and get huffy about it.

 

Which means, to me, this type of discussion isn't about being fair. It's about loot drama. You typical loot drama that crops in these games alllllllllllll the time.

 

You are going to meet a healer one day who finally realizes that an upgrade to crit is going to help them heal better. And that might be the day that some DPS class totally wigs out on the healer because ... duh ... they're DPS and crit is their big thing.

 

And now you're stuck in a loot drama situation where a healer has to try to explain why they want to need on an item?

 

It's just silly.

 

These items are all rolled on. There's equal chance to win. But it's always going to be a situation where someone lost and is upset about losing.

 

/sigh

 

 

absolute best post of the thread

 

there are many items with a mod that has no primary stat but rather say Endurance and one or more of the secondary stats that make for a huge upgreade for a lot of different classes .... if there is a mod in the item that is a huge upgrade for anyone they need and should roll regardless of what the first mod in the items main stat shows

 

the above is of course my humble opinion ... but many people playing do not fully understand the power of switching and swapping mods

[ferroz]

Entitlement is thinking everything that drops is some how yours regardless of your team mates needs.

No, entitlement is thinking anything that drops is some how yours before the roll happens. Period.

 

It's entitlement even if the stats are numerically more favorable than the piece of gear you are currently wearing.

 

 

And didn't I just respond to the rest of this?

[Galbatorrix]

**totally greedy people will roll on everything; they expect everyone to be like themselves and expect everyone to to do the same.**

 

They're not greedy. They are just as entitled to that loot as anyone else. Quit trying to push your sense of greed toward other people. Maybe they needed something that they couldn't afford on the GTN and all for those pieces they needed on will give them the credits to do so?

[Galbatorrix]

Huge plot hole there:

 

What if you go for pass because it is a class item that will work on a party member, but this person actually do not really need it, because he is already wearing something better?

 

Why is he entitled to sponge on top of an item he is going to sell and I have to pass on it? We should both have the same chances at getting it, after all we share loot money equally, and an item that is going to be sold is only loot money.

 

 

If it's an item that's intended for his class and it's an upgrade, I be considerate in pass. If they're already wearing that item or better, I normally ask if it's ok if I need for me companion if I need it. Otherwise, I just greed and forget about it. If I win it, great, I'll vendor it for credits. If not, no big deal. I, personally, greed on anything I don't need. I'll even try to tell people to need for their companions if it's an item that I don't need, but is intended for my class. I try my best to be considerate of others, because I like running in groups and I like being social. I appreciate when they lend their time to me so I can accomplish a task and if they are rewarded with an upgrade because of it, I congratulate them and move on.

 

I personally think needing for companions or looks blindly is a poor move. I'll ask every time.

[DavesTheName]

Anybody defending people who roll need on other classes gear for the mods ought to be put on their own servers where all the arseholes can live in harmony, with sith warriors needing on gear with willpower on it, and sith inquisitors needing gear with cunning.

 

Meanwhile the rest of us decent human beings can get on with being decent human beings.

[ferroz]

I find it funny the people who are telling people how they can roll don't see themselves as entitled.

I'm really just flabbergasted by this.

 

**totally greedy people will roll on everything; they expect everyone to be like themselves and expect everyone to to do the same.**

 

They're not greedy.

They are actually;

 

You see, that's a statement about what the "totally greedy people" will do. I'm not saying that people who roll on everything are greedy. I'm saying that greedy people (they exist) will roll on everything. They're greedy in that statement by definition, because they're part of the subset of people who are totally greedy. It's pretty straightforward.

 

If they aren't greedy, then they aren't part of the subset of people that I'm talking about in that statement.

 

If you want to make the claim that there are no greedy people, then do so... but I think that's a rather indefensible position.

 

They are just as entitled to that loot as anyone else.

And your point is?

 

 

Maybe they needed something that they couldn't afford on the GTN and all for those pieces they needed on will give them the credits to do so?

Need is the wrong word. Want.

 

People want better stats

People want to look a certain way

People want credits.

 

the word "Need" is just a red herring.

Edited January 27, 2012 by ferroz

[Black_Rabbit]

If it's an item that's intended for his class and it's an upgrade, I be considerate in pass. If they're already wearing that item or better, I normally ask if it's ok if I need for me companion if I need it. Otherwise, I just greed and forget about it. If I win it, great, I'll vendor it for credits. If not, no big deal. I, personally, greed on anything I don't need. I'll even try to tell people to need for their companions if it's an item that I don't need, but is intended for my class. I try my best to be considerate of others, because I like running in groups and I like being social. I appreciate when they lend their time to me so I can accomplish a task and if they are rewarded with an upgrade because of it, I congratulate them and move on.

 

I personally think needing for companions or looks blindly is a poor move. I'll ask every time.

 

Exactly my point, that is why the need/greed works perfectly.

 

Greed is there as the world says, to make you profit without caring, but if everyone rolls greed, then we are in the same boat and there is nothing to feel guilty about.

 

I never need on companions because I think that is cheap, and I do not even ask, because at level 50, you can loot "need" on everything because all of your companions can wear from light, to heavy armour, and most available weapons.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Black_Rabbit

[Galbatorrix]

No, entitlement is thinking anything that drops is some how yours before the roll happens. Period.

 

It's entitlement even if the stats are numerically more favorable than the piece of gear you are currently wearing.

 

 

And didn't I just respond to the rest of this?

 

 

Either way, lets just agree to disagree what our definition of entitlement is. I think it's an entitled person that needs on everything regardless of who the item would benefit most and you think it's entitlement to think you should automatically win the loot that does benefit you most. We're never going to agree, so we might as well stop responding to one another.

 

Have a nice day.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Averran
Discussion of moderation

[DarthKhaos]

The people arguing this are masking their own sense of entitlement by calling it common courtesy/decency and demonizing the people who don't think that you're some how special and entitled to gear...

I'm sorry not everyone is like that. If I am running a flashpoint with someone of my base class and I win 2 loots then if a 3rd piece of gear that I can use drops I'm passing just so the other guy gets some loot love.

 

This has absolutely nothing to do with me because I can technically win two gloves drops and yank out the mods and stick it in another modable piece to upgrade that but I don't because there are other people here beside myself.

[ferroz]

Either way, lets just agree to disagree what our definition of entitlement is.

No, absolutely not. This isn't an opinion that we're disagreeing about, you're just flat wrong.

 

I think it's an entitled person that needs on everything regardless of who the item would benefit most and you think it's entitled to think you should win the loot that does benefit you most.

There you go again, twisting my words: I think that you have entitlement issues if you think that you should win the loot. Period. No other qualifiers are needed.

 

Benefit is moot, and even if it wasn't I don't agree with the way that you equate "benefit" and "has the biggest upgrade in stats"

Edited January 27, 2012 by Averran
comment on edited post

[Tadshackles]

Here is how I see it.

 

Im a marauder. I wear a green chest. Orange wearable chest drops with bad mods. I ROLL!

 

That IS an upgrade. I know it was tailor made for you but after a couple thousand creds that will be a tailor made Marauder piece.

 

Now if he had an orange and rolled on that, then he is a ninja.

[Truga]

"No, You May Not Roll on Items for Another Class and Strip Out the Mods"

 

I can certainly do it. I personally wouldn't do it, and I'd probably be pretty mad at a person who did it, but that doesn't change the fact that it's perfectly doable.

[sjmc]

Originally Posted by sjmc

Only if it is an upgrade. You shouldn't roll need on something that are not going to use. If you never bring a companion out to fight, it doesn't really need upgrades.

How would you know? That's the point.

 

I don't know. It is not my business as to which companions other people use or don't use. It is up to them to decide which of their companions "need" an upgrade. If you decide to claim need to upgrade a companion that you are never going to use, I think that is a bit greedy, but its still up to you.

 

Greedy people will be greedy. There's not really much you can do about that. Not everyone is greedy -- in fact, I think most people are not. I just disagree on where the line is between "needy" and "greedy" (since we must have a line -- rather than just random distribution).

 

Wanting an item for appearance reasons is not "greedy". It is more of a matter of having different priorities than you. This is a Role-Playing Game. Some people "roleplay" and appearance is an important part of that. It still doesn't prevent you from pressing "need" as well if you want the item.

 

Companions need gear to be effective in battle. It is not "greedy" to want to gear your companions. It is a process that the game requires if you want to succeed anywhere outside of a full group. If you don't ever solo, or solo without your companion, that is up to you. But while you don't need to upgrade your companion's gear, other people do.

 

Each person has their own priorities and plans on how to progress their character. It is not my business to decide the validity of those priorities.

[Black_Rabbit]

 

Companions need gear to be effective in battle. It is not "greedy" to want to gear your companions. It is a process that the game requires if you want to succeed anywhere outside of a full group. If you don't ever solo, or solo without your companion, that is up to you. But while you don't need to upgrade your companion's gear, other people do.

 

 

I need to pick at this part myself:

 

I can have my companion running almost naked, and have him tank any mobs that comes in our way, as long as I keep doing my part as a healer and CCer.

 

Companion loot is certainly not needed in order to play/complete the game.

[Galbatorrix]

**No, absolutely not. This isn't an opinion that we're disagreeing about, you're just flat wrong.**

 

 

That simply not the case. Stop stating your opinion as fact.

[ferroz]

**No, absolutely not. This isn't an opinion that we're disagreeing about, you're just flat wrong.** That simply not the case. Stop stating your opinion as fact.

I'm not stating an opinion. You're just simply wrong. You have entitlement issues if you think that you should win the loot. Period. No other qualifiers are needed.

 

This isn't an opinion. The fact that you disagree with this just means you're wrong. You're misusing the word "entitlement" , I suspect because you feel bad about your own entitlement issues.

Edited January 27, 2012 by ferroz

[sjmc]

I can have my companion running almost naked, and have him tank any mobs that comes in our way, as long as I keep doing my part as a healer and CCer.

I found that starting around level 30, that if I didn't keep my tank companion geared at least reasonably well, I couldn't heal her faster than the damage a * mob could do.

 

With actually good gear, I can stop focusing on healing her and look towards damaging the mob myself. Good gear also increases her stats which increases her DPS.

 

If your tank companion works fine without armor, then I guess you don't need to "need" on any armor for him/her.

 

EDIT: Plus, I am on a PVP server. I can't assume that everyone else's companion is naked.

Edited January 27, 2012 by sjmc

[Revenaught]

"No, You May Not Roll on Items for Another Class and Strip Out the Mods"

 

I can certainly do it. I personally wouldn't do it, and I'd probably be pretty mad at a person who did it, but that doesn't change the fact that it's perfectly doable.

 

Ah he wasn't saying you were incapable of doing so, just that he doesn't give you permission to do so.

[Malpracticex]

Lootmaster

Problem solved

 

I agree 100%, but becoming the loot police gets to be a pain after a while. shouldnt really need one if people were honest with the rolls..

[Eldren]

Here is how I see it.

 

Im a marauder. I wear a green chest. Orange wearable chest drops with bad mods. I ROLL!

 

That IS an upgrade. I know it was tailor made for you but after a couple thousand creds that will be a tailor made Marauder piece.

 

Now if he had an orange and rolled on that, then he is a ninja.

 

This is the most sensible approach. Orange gear is another of those things TOR has innovated, as it has no corollary in the MMO many are used to playing. Using the Sith Marauder as an example, if it's medium armor and the player likes (or can at least accept) the look, then it doesn't matter what mods are in it, even if those mods are more appropriate for a different class. That orange piece is an upgrade, and more than that, if it's a look the player really likes, it means they aren't going to be rolling on another piece for that slot at all: they're just going to get mod upgrades.

 

Loot isn't straight-forward in this game, and it makes for a lot more gray area in its distribution. A single mod in an orange or purple drop that would upgrade the same mod in a player's existing piece makes that entire drop something they should roll Need on to receive the upgrade, even if the other mod (in a purple) or other two mods (in an orange) have stats more appropriate for a different class.

 

The same goes for companions: they wear the same gear characters do, and thus require upgrading. As a result, we have a situation where, quite literally, everyone should be rolling Need on anything and everything that doesn't have a class requirement (other than their own), as it's likely an upgrade for some element of their character or one of their companions.

 

If everyone is choosing the same priority level on loot rolls, the playing field evens out, and RNG determines everything 100% impartially. In short, you have an effective Roll/Pass system. No one has room for complaint.

 

People aren't going to change their perspective: no one likes losing a loot roll, and they get more upset if they had already socketed a given piece in their mind as "theirs" due to class. If an item lists a class requirement, then only that class should roll on it unless there are mods in it someone wants. Beyond that, it's always beneficial to realize two simple rules:

 

1) No item belongs to anyone, player or group, until it's in someone's inventory, and

2) If it's an upgrade you want, roll Need on it, and don't worry about someone getting upset over losing a roll.

[Galbatorrix]

I'm not stating an opinion. You're just simply wrong. You have entitlement issues if you think that you should win the loot. Period. No other qualifiers are needed.

 

This isn't an opinion. The fact that you disagree with this just means you're wrong. You're misusing the word "entitlement" , I suspect because you feel bad about your own entitlement issues.

 

 

Expecting to win the loot Bioware created for your class is not entitlement. Thinking that you deserve loot that was not designed for your class "just because I was there too" is entitlement.

[LogicalPremise]

I found that starting around level 30, that if I didn't keep my tank companion geared at least reasonably well, I couldn't heal her faster than the damage a * mob could do.

 

With actually good gear, I can stop focusing on healing her and look towards damaging the mob myself. Good gear also increases her stats which increases her DPS.

 

If your tank companion works fine without armor, then I guess you don't need to "need" on any armor for him/her.

 

It depends on the tank. I've been running research on this (I was updating a thread, but I will post all my findings at one time now).

 

Short version:

 

Ranged tanks do not seem to gain benefit (damage), utility (threat), or durability (ttk) from higher level gears as opposed to greens. Iresso in equal level purple mods with orange gear doesn't do much better than Iresso in greens and blues you get from quests and trash mobs. This is pretty much across the board , but it varies. A Jedi Sentinel will get more from upgrading T7 than a tank would, for example.

 

Melee tanks gain a lot of benefit for healer and DPS classes from higher end gear. Melee tanks become an actual liability for tank classes as they tear threat away,but you have no tools to keep them up.

 

Melee DPS classes consistently and uniformly blow chunks across the board even equipped with freaking RAID gear and Rakata.

 

Ranged DPS classes, however, actually need the gear. Really. The difference for Revel between greens and orange was a staggering 112 dps, for vette, 313 DPS, Aric over 200 DPS. The most staggering example had to be Zenith, who literally goes from not being able to take down two trash mobs in greens to being able to solo and kill an ELITE in orange gear with equal level purple mods.

 

Healer companions don't get a lot of DPS or surivabilty, but their healing output increases moderately. For tank and dps classes this is vital, but stacking purples on Talos as a Sith Sorc is stupid AND a waste of money.

 

Bottom line: if you want to argue that all companions NEED gear from FP , particularly blues and purples, which will be outdated in 4 levels, this is pretty much false. The minimal upgrades you can get are all too often wiped out by a green quest reward 3 levels later to deal with the static you will get from other players.

 

Oranges , on the other hand, are viable and in some cases (ranged dps) pretty much required.

[Creed_Buhallin]

Just so the rest of us don't lose our mind, remember this:

 

The idiots will always outargue and outnumber you.

Haven't you been claiming that the majority supports your views?

 

Hmm...

[Mazikeen]

Here is how I see it.

 

Im a marauder. I wear a green chest. Orange wearable chest drops with bad mods. I ROLL!

 

That IS an upgrade. I know it was tailor made for you but after a couple thousand creds that will be a tailor made Marauder piece.

 

Now if he had an orange and rolled on that, then he is a ninja.

 

So you have a green chest with low stats

You see an orange chest with more stats total, but stats you do not use (for example, an IA chest)

You feel that because that item can be modded you can need over the IA in the group?

... are you trolling?

 

You can buy oranges on the AH for a few thousand credits. you just admitted you'll strip the orange drop and buy mods anyway, so WHY are you shafting another player for an item you just admitted you won't even use?

 

This is why I play video games. Online I can choose who I group with. IRL if I came across someone like this, violence would ensue

[Black_Rabbit]

I found that starting around level 30, that if I didn't keep my tank companion geared at least reasonably well, I couldn't heal her faster than the damage a * mob could do.

 

With actually good gear, I can stop focusing on healing her and look towards damaging the mob myself. Good gear also increases her stats which increases her DPS.

 

If your tank companion works fine without armor, then I guess you don't need to "need" on any armor for him/her.

 

EDIT: Plus, I am on a PVP server. I can't assume that everyone else's companion is naked.

 

I am level 42, and my companion has mostly greens, since I have been very unlucky with drops for him (Qyzen).

 

I can do about 4-5 DPS casts before I have to switch to fully heal my companion, which takes about 4 casts (1 immediate shield, 1 channeling heal, 1 instant/overtime heal, and 1 fully maxed out heal), so I think that is a pretty good deal to me, enough not to need to upgrade him. I seriously doubt that other classes are harder than a healer to manage in PVE.

 

But I am on a PVE server, so your point about needing the perfect geared companion on a pvp server where you will use it against player opposition is valid (Unlike on PVE servers that you never need him to be top notch because solo pve encounters ahve been matched by design to be easily overcome at your level, regardless of gear difference).

Edited January 27, 2012 by Black_Rabbit