Chromiie Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I don't like that, simply because of one big issue: What happens if my entire party says I can need on that Smuggler jacket that's moddable, after they've all already hit Greed? They can't just "pass" now that it's been selected as Greed. Unfortunately, I think this is something that only the community can fix, and it's only the community causing the problem. Well they could make BoP gear tradable for 2 hours or so. I know I know WoW does this (don't start your ************) but being able to trade BoP and selling back your commendation gear for a full return are great for those times you just happen to buy the wrong item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calsetes Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Well they could make BoP gear tradable for 2 hours or so. I know I know WoW does this (don't start your ************) but being able to trade BoP and selling back your commendation gear for a full return are great for those times you just happen to buy the wrong item. I don't play Warcraft, and never did, so I don't know what they do and don't have. It just didn't look interesting to me. That said, that sounds like a decent workaround. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 It should be changed so that you can only wear gear of your armor type. No more heavy armor wearers being able to wear light armor. They can't make that change at the moment because of the way that social armor works.... it's all light armor. Not that I think it would be a good change, even if they could... I'm just saying that the design works against that, at least currently. The interface should change so that you cannot roll need on an item that 1) is not your armor type and 2) does not contain your primary stat (aim, cunning, strength, willpower).Personally I'd prefer to make it so that you can't roll need at all, just moving to a roll/pass system, and put the onus on the players if they want to do a different loot system, so that they have to talk it out and decide as a group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matte_Black Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I believe the system is working as intended. If it's that important to people, they should be making the rules clear before it gets to the point of conflict. In this situation, obviously both parties are being greedy, and both believe equally they deserve it more. The one getting upset doesn't like the fact that everyone has an equal chance at getting what they want, rather they want the odds skewed in their favor. I agree. We aren't going to set a final ruling on this in the servers from these forums. People differ on what "need" means. Clarify it from the beginning or loot at your own risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 No it is not designed as such, despite your rationalizations. If someone is just going to strip out the mods, then what use is it anyway? You "need" an empty orange item?I want empty orange items. Just like some people want non-empty orange items. Keep trying to convince yourself selfishness is in the best interests of the game.The selfishness where I roll on items that I want because they have better stats than what I'm wearing, but don't feel entitled to them and never complain if someone else wins them? I think that if more people had that attitude it would indeed make the game better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xabana Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I wonder how many of you turn to your boss when he/she says "I need X, Y or Z" and say "no, you don't need it, you're just being greedy!" :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Wow... I don't even know what to say... you're completely delusional...How so? Or are you just throwing around insults due to lack of valid arguments? I mean, wanting an item designed for your class is selfish and entitled.Yes, if you think you deserve it over someone else who's put in the same time and effort. But rolling onthat item so you can use ONE mod is completely fine... wow. Fixed. It's selfish, but it's less selfish than the guy who's making a big deal about how he's been slighted and how he was entitled to that loot. Does your lack of decency spill over into your real life or only over the internet?what lack of decency are you referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VicSkimmr Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 It is pretty stupid to roll need on something for cosmetic reasons as you can easily go back and farm the FP's later to get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I wonder how many of you turn to your boss when he/she says "I need X, Y or Z" and say "no, you don't need it, you're just being greedy!" :pI don't think that my boss ever uses the term, at least not in that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackmanya Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 This problem stems from they way items are implemented in swtor, as well as companions while leveling. First, if the item in question has a stat I need I will take it. Now I might need to for my character or I might need it for my companion. I might just need the mods out of it. They allow mods to be removed for just this purpose. Second, if you don't like this behavior dont pug. This sort of thing has been happening since we have had the ability to roll on items in mmos. If you don't like guilds...sorry you're gonna be angry often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 It is pretty stupid to roll need on something for cosmetic reasons as you can easily go back and farm the FP's later to get it.If you're talking about leveing... then it's just as silly to roll need on something because it makes your stats marginally better, since you'll replace it in a short time with a better anyway. Some people like looking a particular way. Some people like to have bigger numbers for the sake of having bigger numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I agree. We aren't going to set a final ruling on this in the servers from these forums. People differ on what "need" means. Clarify it from the beginning or loot at your own risk.That's by far the best plan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackmanya Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 It is pretty stupid to roll need on something for cosmetic reasons as you can easily go back and farm the FP's later to get it. By the same token its stupid to complain about an item that you will just replace in a few levels anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabloosh Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 This is not the LFD guys. Flex your party leader powers, state the rules and boot those who wish not to follow it. Run your groups like a dictatorship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck_TwnTNN Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Solution 1 Change the system to ROLL or PASS. Have the game compute the variables that will affect the roll (class of player, available companions of player, value of mods/items, etc). The game then applies all the variables and awards the item to the highest weighted roll. The more the item "fits" your class or companions, the higher your chance to win. This way, players who simply don't want an item can pass on it, the others have varying degree to win the item. People might complain about people passing or not passing on an item they feel entitled to, but this is a possiblity. Solution 2 Game applies the same variables as stated above and items are awarded. No option to bow out of a roll is given. Everyone effectively "rolls" on the item. Additionally, a % of the merchant value of the item is then awarded to those who did not win the item itself. Solution 3 System stays the same... Everyone simply starts to roll NEED and accepts the outcome whether they like it or not. There is no magic bullet here unfortunately so in my opinion, a system that is as universally liked (or disliked) should be put in place. Cheers! Solutions_Canuck Edited January 25, 2012 by Canuck_TwnTNN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kthx Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) if I am able to press NEED, then i'm allowed to do it /thread If I'm able to cut in front of you in a line at the supermarket, then I'm allowed to do it. Is that really the world you want to live in? [Rhetorical question: You've already answered it.] Edited January 25, 2012 by Kthx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massimoto Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 if I am able to press NEED, then i'm allowed to do it See, I'm able to smack people in the head in real life, but I'm not allowed to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlacke Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) I feel sorry for the OP honestly because i really dislike ninjas. That being said, there will always be stupid and selfish people, as the time passes they will become known on their servers, word will be spread and no one normal will invite them to group any more. Yesterday in a flashpoint i had to take action once a saw a particular female Smuggler joined the group because on two previous occasions i saw him he (is a guy obviously) was needing on trooper heavy armor, at first i thought he clicked need for his companion, which i could understand to some extent so we told him to greed thinking he will get the idea, but once he got his hands on a dual blade lightsaber it became clear that he is an idiot to say the least. He was immediately kicked from the group once i explained to the rest of the people what awaits them if he hangs around, if they didn't take my word for it i would have left honestly. It doesn't bother me so much because in due time when they become infamous on server they will have to either make new characters in order for anyone to play with them or change the way they behave completely, most likely both. Edited January 25, 2012 by Vlacke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sufran Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) No, only you and your groups benefit. The idea that because you and your clique are better off means that things are better for everyone is an inherently selfish point of view. This is speculative, you have no idea as to whether or not somebody is insulated to their clique. I can envisage many scenarios wherein an individual does interact with the community as a whole due to the game being designed exactly for that purpose, whether via participating in PvE pick-up-groups, in PvP pick-up-groups, helping an individual that has requested it in General, by helping those they meet whilst levelling an alternative character, etc. As a result, I regard this as a straw-man because you're attributing conditions that are beneficial to you without any evidence to support that being the case. If it's an item that you later replace, it's only a temporary gain even for that clique. Take the case where someone takes an item, rips a mod out of it and then keeps that mod longer than you would keep that item. At that point, you raise the long term community stats more by letting that individual take the item and rip the one mod out... Worthless argument as, unless you're capable of seeing the future, you have no idea as to who will use things for the greatest quantity of time. Moreover, the window of usage is not the only variable that matters. Besides that, it clearly doesn't help everyone; a quick counter example: as the gear level of you and your clique increases, the disparity between you and a newly leveled character increases, raising the expectations placed on all characters regardless of gear, making it harder for new characters to get groups. You can see that in action toward the end of an expansion in most MMOs (it happened a lot in both EQ and WoW) Until we have evidence of this occurring in this game, I regret that I'll regard this as invalid as it is speculation based on an entirely different paradigm. Moreover, it is entirely ignorant of possible benefits via selective blindness. What of the increased capacity to 'carry' those individuals and 'boost' them? What of the fact that new content is geared towards those in possession of higher tiers thus the pre-existing collective would be unable to progress if distribution mechanics weren't optimised? I don't pretend to state that such would happen or off-set it, but I'm not the one making a definitive claim as to the harm it will have on 'new characters' with nothing but speculation and anecdote. The reductio ad absurdum is that nobody should ever progress because the disparities introduced by it, apparently, have no positive impact at all on the collective. The logic you're using here is analogous to "robbing banks makes the world a better place because I can give my friends money" ... it really doesn't help the community. The robber just thinks it does because he's trying to see himself as not being selfish. This is a complete straw-man, no it isn't analogous. In the instance of the bank, the items taken are already private property and are being redistributed without the consent or against the will of those owners. The items rolled upon have no inherent owner (beyond the collective that earned them as a whole thus whose social principles determine who gains individual ownership) thus it is not 'theft.' Equally, you are relying on your speculation that any benefits would solely be conferred upon friends when there are many dynamics in an MMO that allow collective benefits. What would be an appropriate analogy? Perhaps that a group, not necessarily friends, finds a hitherto unknown deposit of a substance that solely belongs to their group, their social dynamics mean that the person best qualified to maximise gain from that is given control of the deposit, and that person uses their control to benefit the group but also the community around them as a whole via their interactions with it (replace 'making group content easier' with 'spending the earning from that deposit in local businesses and charities' or such). Of course, any analogy is going to be weak because reality doesn't have items popping spontaneously into existence. It benefits the community as a whole more, since it increases the average level of gear by a larger amount. Speculative as per above post. Implied ad hominem attacks make your arguments look just as weak as overt ones... No, it is irrational to presume that an ad hominem has impact on the overall validity of an argument and is a worthless rhetoric technique. If I call an individual a 'cretin' for believing that the Earth is flat after providing considerable empirical proof to the contrary, my fundamental argument is not 'weakened.' It is those that are focused more on style and manipulation rather than substance that presume such things. Edited January 25, 2012 by Sufran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daedricshots Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 This is one of the reasons i dont run flashpoints or raid. I strictly pvp. On a side note though, whoever does this is really a bottom shelf human being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grygost Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) If there is a need button, I'm gonna roll need. Can I have your stuff? This is a game suck it up. My companion needs it. I play on my time which is more important than yours. I am entitled to anything that drops I helped kill the boss. If it wasn't for me you wouldn't kill the boss to get the loot. On and on and on, Do I win the internetz now? Seriously set rules at the beginning of the run. I always asked before we roll out. Anyone rolls on stuff they can't use /ignore or /drop the player. Virtual games and space make people think that everything is theirs or they can be a Jackalope and get away with it. Beat up much in school? Get your lunch money taken by the big and bad girls? Mommy making you take the trash out? I love Trolls. They get a rise in the internetz so they feel better about basement dwelling. End these threads and play the game. Edited January 25, 2012 by Grygost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logiick Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 This issue will never be fixed until Bioware implements being unable to roll on gear you're not actually supposed to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logiick Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 If I'm able to cut in front of you in a line at the supermarket, then I'm allowed to do it. You're not able, though. Simply wouldn't allow it and tell you to **** off or beat your ***. Cute analogy though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norumaniac Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 They really need to add class restrictions to the need button. The problem won't go away until they do. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raximillian Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Loot bag for flashpoints. Problem solved... I also just run with RL friends, so do not have this problem, but I believe BW should do something about it. Need only available for items with your stat, or just loot bags and get over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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