Operative/Scoundrel healing/shared spec pvp issues

[ImApologetic]

Smuggler

 

Scoundrel

Flechette Round: Now provides 30% armor penetration while active.

K.O.: This ability now knocks the target down for 1.5 seconds.

Shoot First: The damage output of this ability has been decreased by approximately 20% to control burst damage and because it was enabling significantly faster than intended kills in PvP.

 

Imperial Agent

 

Operative

Acid Blade: Now provides 30% armor penetration while active.

Jarring Strike: This ability now knocks the target down for 1.5 seconds.

Hidden Strike: The damage output of this ability has been decreased by approximately 20% to control burst damage and because it was enabling significantly faster than intended kills in PvP.

 

 

Alright, congratulations Bioware and EA you have successfully nerfed the best pvp spec for Operative/Scoundrel. Granted i admit it is needed for that spec. But you have neglected to fix the mess you made for the healing spec and the shared spec. i healed as my operative for quite a while until i was fed up with it, where i then went to the shared spec(dirty fighting for scoundrel and lethality for operative)

 

To start off, Op/Scoundrel healing is pathetic. You gave us two heals with a cast time, one that generates Upperhand/Tactical Advantage with a 2 second cast(this is fine). The second heal is a 1.5 second cast the consumes 20 energy and 1 Tactical Advantage/Upperhand, this is not well thought out or well done, cost efficiency wise this heal isn't beneficial in pvp at all, or very beneficial in pve. Now to go along with this you gave us two Heal over time spells(hots). The first of these two is called Kolto Probe/Slow-release Medpac, now this HoT is alright, however it needs to be improved and i will go into depth later. The second HoT is pathetic. Kolto Cloud/Recuperative Nanotech is a piece of bantha poodoo. No wait, its worse NOT even worth the points for this as it is our 31 point talent. It heals for less than kolto probe(as it rightly should in an AoE) however it only has an affect on 4 targets in a 10m range of the target. i would like to point out the fact that Sage/sorc's 31 point aoe heals for close to twice as much, and heals everyone in the radius. Not only does KC/RN heal for crap, its useless in pvp situations, it can be used to some effect in pve but those are few and far between. Now i would like to move onto the final heals you gave Op/Scoundrel. The first being Surgical probe/Emergency medpac this heal is probably the 2nd best heal you gave us, it works well considering the restraints that were put on the skill. It only costs 1 TA/Upperhand but heals for 900-1k(with 450 or so bonus healing) and can crit up to 2k(with 80% surge + 30% boost from talents), however the only downfall is the TA/Upperhand cost and i will go into detail why this is its major weakness. The final heal is Diagnostic scan, worthless in pvp and alright in pve, its a 3 second cast(base without alacrity) that heals for maybe 200 + on a crit 3 times, a 600 heal, yet when we crit it gives us 2 energy and we have to sit still for 3 seconds and hope we crit for all 3 ticks(max of 6 energy in 3 second period w/out alacrity, even with a lot of alacrity best we could h ope for is 2.4 seconds) so if we go into the danger zone(below 60% or so energy) we have to use this skill and a 2 minute cooldown to try to get back up to the 5e/s regen rate where our tank could be crit or the group could take major damage and we just drop back and end up repeating the vicious cycle.

 

Now i would like to cover all these skills in a pvp situation where theres 2 dps attacking you(as the healer) and i will also do my best to explain why it is bad as a Op/scoundrel healer compared to a sorc/sage healer in utility and healing wise. To begin i will start with stating the exact specifications of the situation. There are two dps attacking you(the healer) both are skilled players will full pvp gear(same as you are) you are below 60% hp and attempting to stay alive with 1/2 a resolve bar and 2 stacks of KP/SRM with no TA/UH and you have no cd up for vanish. You cast Kolto Injection/Underworld medicine before cast finishes you are interrupted, and cannot cast Kolto Infusion/Kolto Pack(1.5 s heal that costs 20 energy and 1 TA/UH) due to your lack of TA/UH, you cannot cast SP/EM because you have no TA/UH aswell, you have to eat the 2 dps's damage during the interrupt until you can cast your 2.0s heal again while you also wait for the 30% chance to get TA/UH from KP/SRM so you can use another heal, so now lets assume that you get this proc, you now have the choice to use your 1 TA/UH for a chance to heal up to 2k + or just the flat 900-1k on SP/EM where you would now be @ approx 50% or less. Or you can use that 1 TA/UH on a Kolto Pack/Kolto Infusion, which again will be interrupted by the 2nd dpser. So lets say you use your TA/UH on the instant SP/EM and you crit for 2k, your now back up to around 60% and begin to heal your party members when wait.. you get interrupted yet again and the whole situation plays over again. After this your down to around 40% hp and you use your shield probe/defense screen to absorb maybe 1k-1.5k damage where you again begin to heal using Kolto Injection/Underworld medicine(you get 1 TA/UH from your HoT as you begin) where you now get stunned by one of the two dpser and your resolve is up to about 80-90% so your resolve bar will be full after the next stun. Your now down to below 30% hp and use your TA/UH on the instant heal(which refunds your TA/UH so you can use it again). your back up to around 35% hp where you again attempt to get your heal off and get interrupted(not stunned just interrupted because their cd is up now). At this point its do or die so you spam your Instant heal on yourself keeping yourself just above dead until the 2nd dpser uses his stun. You are now dead.

 

Same situation as above but from the perspective from a sage/sorc healer(mind you i don't know this class nearly aswell its just a quick example of what the difference is) You begin with having a Shield up so you can absorb some of the damage, 2 dpsers as before you are @ 60% hp with near full force. You begin by attempting to heal yourself with Dark Infusion, it gets interrupted, you move onto dark heal(the 1.5s cast) this gets interrupted meanwhile your shield is still on you so you're at 60% still. you overload the target(the Knockback) and begin casting Dark heal again and heal yourself up to 80% or so. Need i say more with the utitlity in 1/10th the time of the situation the sorc can keep doing this for much longer than a op/scoundrel could potentially do.

 

Now after stating those issues in the heal spec let me move onto a much shorter section, Dirty fighting/ Lethality spec.

 

To begin, there are many bugs in this spec that are known issues. After testing for quite some time i have not seen Corrosive dart/Vital Shot tick twice at one time with the talent Mortal wound that gives us a 24% chance to tick twice, unless it doesn't show us the dmg from the 2nd tick, granted this is only a minor issue. However we also get the 2nd dot Corrosive grenade/Shrap bomb which is a longer cd dot that lasts for about 3-4s longer than Vital Shot/Corrosive dart. Now to the meat, Both of these dots can be removed by any self respecting healer(or someone who can heal but is specced dps) which then nerfs the ability called Cull/Wounding shot. Now if you aren't getting at what i'm saying then i'll shorten it to 1 statement. This spec is not worth the time to invest into the spec to make it worth using in pvp as opposed to scrapper/concealment. I admit this section isn't nearly as strong as the healing section. That is due to myself having only tested this spec for around 1-2 weeks at lvl 50.

 

Discuss.

[ImApologetic]

i did say that scrapper/concealment spec did need to be nerfed, but they needed to address the other two specs before they made the only pvp viable spec nerfed.

[Serazil]

Reroll to a Bounty Hunter. Problem solve.

[JMack]

In response to the OP, less constructive feedback and more QQ, it's the only thing that works around here.

[Lady_Alyria]

Welcome to the land of mediocrity, us Slinger and Snipers have missed our Smuggler cousins. One less class people will bring into pvp. Taking us one step closer to my prediction.

 

SWTOR PVP aka Commandos verses Sorcs

[ImApologetic]

Welcome to the land of mediocrity, us Slinger and Snipers have missed our Smuggler cousins. One less class people will bring into pvp. Taking us one step closer to my prediction.

 

SWTOR PVP aka Commandos verses Sorcs

 

thats a very well thought out post, pretty good humor in it lol.

[Lady_Alyria]

Awww, you gave up?

[ImApologetic]

no i requested it be stickied.

[Abatement]

Welcome to the marauder, sniper, and assassin zone. I hope you enjoy your stay because at the rate this stuff is getting looked at, you will be there forever.

 

Sorry, just disenfranchised with the way bioware is handling this.

 

I haven't seen classes so unbalanced since RO.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Abatement

[Diomades]

They still haven't fixed Biochem, so people will STILL be complaining about being ripped apart by Operatives/Scoundrels, because that was really what was making their damage insane.

 

I don't use Biochem, I would do 2K non-crit and 5K crits. I've seen 3K crits on Inquisitor and Mercenary channeled cast ticks without Biochem, and that was a tick on a channeled ability. It just seems like a knee-jerk reaction.

 

The burst damage needed to be lowered, absolutely. But as a trade off since our sustained damage blows, not a straight up nerf that removes that burst. The tree really doesn't have much else than that.

 

I mean, we're the only melee class in the game without a sprint or intercept. At least give us that.

[belialle]

I'm also concerned about how it's going to affect me, as a non-concealment operative.

 

Hardly anyone is ever going to read that post though. People don't read long paragraphs or posts on internet forums. You'd do better to make it more of an outline using a ordered list or by using lots of formatting to help your points stand out more clearly.

 

Also, hardly anyone plays an operative. They don't know how the class works, and they're too busy gloating, anyhow.

[RoyFokker]

Welcome to the marauder, sniper, and assassin zone. I hope you enjoy your stay because at the rate this stuff is getting looked at, you will be there forever.

 

Sorry, just disenfranchised with the way bioware is handling this.

 

I haven't seen classes so unbalanced since RO.

 

I'm going to have to disagree with you on Marauders. Their cc's could use some love, but damage-wise they're just fine. Resolve more than anything needs to get looked at and fixed as half the time I still get cc'd by SI's with a full bar vs with SW or Smug's where people can shrug off my cc with a full bar. Assassins as well, are very viable in PVP.

[belialle]

They still haven't fixed Biochem, so people will STILL be complaining about being ripped apart by Operatives/Scoundrels, because that was really what was making their damage insane.

 

They could hit operatives with a nerf 10x as strong as this one and people would still complain. People always cry about stealthy burst classes. People don't like being caught with their pants down, and a good operative will always try to catch you with your pants down.

Edited January 21, 2012 by belialle

[ImApologetic]

I'm also concerned about how it's going to affect me, as a non-concealment operative.

 

Hardly anyone is ever going to read that post though. People don't read long paragraphs or posts on internet forums. You'd do better to make it more of an outline using a ordered list or by using lots of formatting to help your points stand out more clearly.

 

Also, hardly anyone plays an operative. They don't know how the class works, and they're too busy gloating, anyhow.

 

my objective is to draw attention from the devs/mods, even though i doubt anything will come of it, its worth a try. Anyone worth a cent in BW/EA will atleast read the entire post.

[Dralor]

Hope this gets read. Will the concealment nerf and no other viable PvP spec I think its safe to say agents and smugglers (since sniper/gunslinger is also sub par) will be the weakest classes by far. Not sure what we are even supposed to be good at, terrible mobility, healing, cc, survivability... the list goes on.

 

I don't mention damage because it was a little high in the case of the one spec, but bh/commando and sorc/sages were already able to keep up with those numbers. Marauder/sent to some extent as well though they have a higher skill cap and suffer from other issues.

[Diomades]

They could hit operatives with a nerf 10x as strong as this one and people would still complain. People always cry about stealthy burst classes. People don't like being caught with their pants down, and a good operative will always try to catch you with your pants down.

 

The fact of the matter is, burst was our utility. We don't have shields or knock backs or sprints or intercepts. We had stealth and front-loaded burst. Now we're getting the front-loaded burst removed (or at least DRAMATICALLY toned down), I don't see us having much of a place in the PvP arena until they give us something.

 

I hope they intend to make it so that K.O does not fill the resolve bar. I mean, full resolve for a 1.5 second knockdown? Screw that talent, I'll just forget the talent and follow up Shoot First with Dirty Kick.

[ImApologetic]

The fact of the matter is, burst was our utility. We don't have shields or knock backs or sprints or intercepts. We had stealth and front-loaded burst. Now we're getting the front-loaded burst removed (or at least DRAMATICALLY toned down), I don't see us having much of a place in the PvP arena until they give us something.

 

I hope they intend to make it so that K.O does not fill the resolve bar. I mean, full resolve for a 1.5 second knockdown? Screw that talent, I'll just forget the talent and follow up Shoot First with Dirty Kick.

 

well we do have a shield. but its pathetic.

[Dralor]

The fact of the matter is, burst was our utility. We don't have shields or knock backs or sprints or intercepts. We had stealth and front-loaded burst. Now we're getting the front-loaded burst removed (or at least DRAMATICALLY toned down), I don't see us having much of a place in the PvP arena until they give us something.

 

I hope they intend to make it so that K.O does not fill the resolve bar. I mean, full resolve for a 1.5 second knockdown? Screw that talent, I'll just forget the talent and follow up Shoot First with Dirty Kick.

 

Just in regards to talent choices, after the change you shouldn't play concealment/scoundrel equiv anyway. The shared tree will be better damage and it won't require us to be in melee range. Also provides slightly more utility.

[ImApologetic]

Just in regards to talent choices, after the change you shouldn't play concealment/scoundrel equiv anyway. The shared tree will be better damage and it won't require us to be in melee range. Also provides slightly more utility.

 

well unless they give us a talent that rewards TA/UH for a ranged version of shiv/pistol whip, we will need to be melee to do cull/wounding shots.

[RoyFokker]

Hope this gets read. Will the concealment nerf and no other viable PvP spec I think its safe to say agents and smugglers (since sniper/gunslinger is also sub par) will be the weakest classes by far. Not sure what we are even supposed to be good at, terrible mobility, healing, cc, survivability... the list goes on.

 

I don't mention damage because it was a little high in the case of the one spec, but bh/commando and sorc/sages were already able to keep up with those numbers. Marauder/sent to some extent as well though they have a higher skill cap and suffer from other issues.

 

I'm liking a sabo build gunslinger so far, not 50 on it yet, but at 40 it's quite effective. I'll have to get back to you on whether I find it sub par at 50.

[Dralor]

well unless they give us a talent that rewards TA/UH for a ranged version of shiv/pistol whip, we will need to be melee to do cull/wounding shots.

 

Yeah I mean its not great but there is other ways to build TA, and we will always be a sort of hybrid range/melee class. Its still a better alternative to what the stealth tree is going to become.

[Maniigoldo]

 

I haven't seen classes so unbalanced since RO.

 

Play aion then see what UNBALANCED really means.

except operatives/BH aka the I WIN BUTTON (kk tracer missiles) the pvp is just fine

[Paralassa]

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[Damukag]

Hi there!

 

We recently had to remove some posts in this thread. We wanted to take a moment and remind everyone of the Forum Rules and Guidelines.

 

Please remember that users are allowed to disagree with one another. We understand that sometimes subjects can get heated, but we do ask that everyone is respectful and polite to each other while giving their opinions. Here are some quick examples to keep in mind when posting.

• Never insult another community member.
  
• Always discuss the topic and give constructive criticism.
  
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Hey. Before you head off, we'd love some input from a Dev perspective on these issues. If you don't have any, that's fine, but they obviously have access to better information than us and can see trends easier. I'd be very interested to see their opinions on how healers should/are stacked up against one another.

[KittyFood]

The only thing we had going for us was our high burst damage.

 

We sacrifice a lot to achieve said damage and now that its been reduced to a "controlled amount" it isn't any different from what a sorcerer or other damage dealing classes can dish out.

 

Unlike other classes, we now fit a category of relevant damage that is easily comparable to other damage dealing classes. Except, we don't have the same utility nor do we have equivalent survivability like others do. We can't even sustain damage for a long period of time.

 

BW didn't realize that taking something away would hinder the entity of the class.

You take away burst damage from the concealment tree you leave an Operative with no sustainability (in terms of energy) and durability against damage.

 

We are a lot more vulnerable now and less viable in any situation, PVP and PVE.

 

The the top of our concealment tree gets hit like a bus, it doesn't even matter if its playable or not. It just means Operatives are like any other damage dealing class minus utility, survivability and sustainability.

 

Acid Blade and Hidden Strike seemed like a good decision.

Although Acid Blade 30% was a far bit over-nerfed, in my opinion.

But taking away Jarrinng Strike's 3 second knock-down made concealment Operative comparable to a level 10-35 Operative a pesky "attempting" damage dealer that needed something like Jarring Strike's 3s. knock down to become viable.

 

Every class had something going for them. It was their key feature.

What key feature or what do concealment Operatives get now?

What do we have that makes us any different from being a standard damage dealer?

There isn't anything.