Remove PvP flagging from AOE effects on PvE servers.

[GweedoBane]

/signed. There is no reason anyone should ever get flagged against their wishes on a PVE server.

 

A guy in another post came up with a brilliant idea, to which I added a few thoughts of my own.

 

If they refuse to remove this from the PVE servers, then to make things fair they should on the PVP servers, spawn stealthed Champion mobs in random places where the pvpers will be fighting. And make the Champion mobs at least 20 levels above the level of the highest player in the area. LOL. I can just see all the qqing then. Then we can just tell them to suck it up, be more aware, or don't use their AOEs, like they tell us.

 

I like this ^ lol.

 

I'm guessing this issue exists with the flagging via your own aoe's because simply the devs never or don't play the game?

 

My own experience was when I was waiting for the balloon on Tatooine for the datacron. A sith sorcerer who was 6 levels above me would not leave me alone with the duel requests and then he suddenly was yellow to me and my cursor went red when I hovered it over him. I knew enough about pvp etc from swg to know that I could have simply used any of my commands to strike him then it would have been on like donkey kong. He was desperate to engage me and I was not interested, nor should I have to so yes I agree with the cessation of this please.

 

-edit-

 

Actually they should remove the whole other player being a red target entirely unless of course you are pvp flagged as well.....said opposite player could run amongst you and you could strike them by mistake, like what could have happened to me in above. I didn't have to use an aoe if I decided to strike him/her.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Paralassa
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[Sabarok]

/signed. There is no reason anyone should ever get flagged against their wishes on a PVE server.

 

A guy in another post came up with a brilliant idea, to which I added a few thoughts of my own.

 

If they refuse to remove this from the PVE servers, then to make things fair they should on the PVP servers, spawn stealthed Champion mobs in random places where the pvpers will be fighting. And make the Champion mobs at least 20 levels above the level of the highest player in the area. LOL. I can just see all the qqing then. Then we can just tell them to suck it up, be more aware, or don't use their AOEs, like they tell us.

 

It makes me smile seeing this idea get around. Glad you like it so much. I like your idea of a Champion better than my gold Elite.

 

I think that it is very important that there is no accidental flag on PvE servers. When you enter a PvP zone, you get a 10 second warning where you can turn around and leave. You aren't insta-flagged.

 

I actually don't see the sense in this. Just leave off the class buff until his pvp flag wears off. If you see a same faction player being attacked by an enemy player, you should be able to click on them and heal immediately, without having to turn your own pvp flag on. And of course it would flag you for pvp.

 

No, you shouldn't. So what if your heal comes in a few seconds late because you needed to manually flag? That's the risk the PvPer took by getting into a PvP fight on a PvE server. As the healer, you lose nothing by being slow to heal. If you knew your buddy was in trouble and needed help, you should have flagged in advance. Help will be slightly delayed as players flag up. There should be no expectation of reinforcements when doing open world PvP on a PvE server. And it should most certainly not involve the requirement of an ability for players to be ganked.

 

However, healing friendly players is such a minor aspect of it. The primary aspect is AoEs casted on enemy NPCs will cause a player to be flagged if an enemy flagged player walks into it. This is the exploit being used to gank unsuspecting & unwilling players. Defending that because you want to be able to heal open world PvPers on a PvE server while not already flagged is silly.

 

Another exploit is if two players from opposite factions get into a friendly dual, if one of the players were to set their flag mid-fight, the opposing player will get flagged too and at that point, other participants can enter the dual.

 

There should only be 2 ways for a player to get flagged on a PvE server:

 

1) Entering a PvP zone and staying inside for more than 10 seconds.

2) Manually setting the flag

 

If you want emergency access to PvP, a PvE server is the wrong choice.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Sabarok

[VarnieTsk]

 

I'm guessing this issue exists with the flagging via your own aoe's because simply the devs never or don't play the game?

 

 

I think most of them probably do play the game. At least that's the impression I got when watching the videos while waiting for the game to be released. And as far as I can see, the majority of them must be PVPers because everything in this game is catering to PVP.

 

PVP issues get looked at and fixed lickety split. Classes are nerfed for PVP balance. Conveniences are removed for PVP exploits. And they turn a deaf ear to the concerns of the PVE people on PVE servers about being force-flagged by stealthed players.

 

I came into this game under the impression that it was PVE-centric. Instead I find the opposite. Very disappointed.

 

As it is, I refuse to be a part of it. I have better things to do. If we have still not received a response from Bioware on this by this time next month, I'll be cancelling. I may come back at a later date if they ever remove that bs, but I refuse to continue with it the way it is.

[Solemnone]

so essentially if you wanted to kill someone that was pvp flagged, you would just continously use aoe abilities on them and they wouldn't be able to touch you?

 

 

No, he means that the AoE would ignore all player characters when you are not flagged. It's not anything new, Rift launched with this ability(or added it very soon after), and WoW added this after they realized how ridiculous it was to allow this sort of nonsense to go on(that and they got tired of being flamed on their forums).

 

It will get added, the question is how much grief will Bioware allow before they act on it. This has never happened to me, but the first time it does, the player responsible will be reported for griefing, because that is exactly what this is.

[VarnieTsk]

This. It sorta ruins the whole "I want to play PvE" when some yahoo decided it'd be fun to run his 50 into my Pulse Cannon shot so he can grief-flag me.

 

Deliberately targeting and firing on someone should auto-flag, not having random guys sprint through your bombardment.

 

Actually, I don't think you should be able to deliberatly fire on a flagged person at all. This leads to the thing called "blue walling." A group of unflagged players can just walk up to a flagged player and open up on them with their most devastating attacks with no warning.

 

Any way you cut it, this is an exploit that needs to be fixed.

 

Maybe if the devs see that this is actually not a good thing for the PVPers either, then they might change it. Just doing it for the PVEers doesn't seem to be enough to get their attention.

 

I have no doubt that if the PVPers were complaining about it they'd fix it.

[daemian]

Should be like in RIFT, you cannot heal, buff, or anything else to a flagged player unless you manually flag yourself first.

 

This makes perfect sense to me. Currently I just don't see the logic of doing it otherwise. The message it sends is "Sorry, PVPers have priority status, you'll have to change the way you play or go elsewhere if they're around." With that in mind, I'd love to hear the official rationale.

Edited January 23, 2012 by daemian

[Zorvan]

/signed

 

You are giving PvP players the ability to force people WHO DO NOT EVER WANT TO PVP AND ARE ON A PVE SERVER FOR THAT REASON to PvP.

[Siorac]

Actually, I don't think you should be able to deliberatly fire on a flagged person at all. This leads to the thing called "blue walling." A group of unflagged players can just walk up to a flagged player and open up on them with their most devastating attacks with no warning.

 

While I agree with the suggestion itself (that no unflagged player should be able to hurt or heal a flagged one), I don't think that blue walling can be really avoided so simply. There's nothing to stop the unflagged group to go up to the flagged character, quickly turn their own flag on (which takes about half a second) and obliterate said character.

 

But that's a risk you take by flagging yourself for PvP. IF you can only voluntarily turn your flag on, there's no problem. If you deliberately flag yourself, avoid groups of the opposing faction, that's all.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Siorac

[Erethrian]

I'm always flagged for pvp in a RP-PVE server, so I didn't noticed this, but it's clearly unfair for the pve player. I've never even tried to force noone to be flagged for pvp and noone should be able to do this. So...

 

 

/signed

 

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Erethrorn

[va_wanderer]

Actually, I don't think you should be able to deliberatly fire on a flagged person at all. This leads to the thing called "blue walling." A group of unflagged players can just walk up to a flagged player and open up on them with their most devastating attacks with no warning.

 

You can do that anyway. Flagging takes no time whatsoever, just plan it.

 

Right click your icon, flag PvP, fire. Boom.

 

That's PvP on a PvE server, after all.

[Nitewolfe]

I completely agree this issue should be top priority for BW to fix!

PVE players should not be at the mercy of pvp players on PVE servers!

Fix the aoe auto flagging!

[VarnieTsk]

You can do that anyway. Flagging takes no time whatsoever, just plan it.

 

Right click your icon, flag PvP, fire. Boom.

 

That's PvP on a PvE server, after all.

 

Well I guess that's true. So much for my idea that if this issue was an inconvenience for the pvpers too, that they might actually look at it or at least tell us they're going to look at it.

 

I'm really beginning to feel that pve people are the unwanted step-children in this game. Well, whatever. I'm playing out the month I just paid for, and then will be making the hard decision. They really do need to tell us if this is working as intended and if it's going to stay this way. There are plenty of other games out there and I don't like being left hanging waiting for an answer to this question.

[Draflorin]

If an opposing faction player can stand in your AOE and flag and force you to become flagged, that's a bug and it should be fixed.

 

Buffing and healing party members and others in your faction who are flagged will and should always flag you. this is not a bug this is a game mechanic even on PVE servers in many MMO games. the reason this is so is because its not fair for a PVP player to get healed and buffed/aided by others who are not flagged

 

If you heal a PVP flagged player you are aiding him - you will become flagged

If you buff a PVP flagged player you are aiding him - you will become flagged

 

If you join a party with a flagged player you can ask him to leave group while you buff the others or ask him to unflag and wait the 5 mins till his flag wears off. at the end of the day you don't have to group with a PVP flagged player. be aware of the mechanic and make your grouping choices accordingly.

[VarnieTsk]

If an opposing faction player can stand in your AOE and flag and force you to become flagged, that's a bug and it should be fixed.

 

Buffing and healing party members and others in your faction who are flagged will and should always flag you. this is not a bug this is a game mechanic even on PVE servers in many MMO games. the reason this is so is because its not fair for a PVP player to get healed and buffed/aided by others who are not flagged

 

If you heal a PVP flagged player you are aiding him - you will become flagged

If you buff a PVP flagged player you are aiding him - you will become flagged

 

If you join a party with a flagged player you can ask him to leave group while you buff the others or ask him to unflag and wait the 5 mins till his flag wears off. at the end of the day you don't have to group with a PVP flagged player. be aware of the mechanic and make your grouping choices accordingly.

 

Personally I'd rather that any action taken by an unflagged player can't affect a flagged player, period.

 

However, I could live with it if they did how you said, with healing & buffing because that requires a conscious act on an intended target. As it is right now, not only can a flagged player stand in your, or your companion's, AOE and get you flagged involuntarily, they can do it stealthed.

 

It was even worse when the companions' AOEs kept toggling back on even after you turned them off. It was adding insult to injury by the devs. Now if they'd just fix this we'd be able to play in peace without wondering if it's safe to use an AOE.

[Sabarok]

If an opposing faction player can stand in your AOE and flag and force you to become flagged, that's a bug and it should be fixed.

 

Buffing and healing party members and others in your faction who are flagged will and should always flag you. this is not a bug this is a game mechanic even on PVE servers in many MMO games. the reason this is so is because its not fair for a PVP player to get healed and buffed/aided by others who are not flagged

 

If you heal a PVP flagged player you are aiding him - you will become flagged

If you buff a PVP flagged player you are aiding him - you will become flagged

 

If you join a party with a flagged player you can ask him to leave group while you buff the others or ask him to unflag and wait the 5 mins till his flag wears off. at the end of the day you don't have to group with a PVP flagged player. be aware of the mechanic and make your grouping choices accordingly.

 

I feel the risk should be inverted to that. It's not that unflagged players should risk getting flagged for healing, but flagged players risk not getting healed. It's not the healer that should demand an flagged player leave for fear of not wanting to be flagged, but that the flagged player should be asking the healer to flag in order to heal.

 

Here's a scenario for an exploit under your system: Empire Griefer is on a PvE server. He's in a guild and has made friends with fellow griefers. He rolls a Republic character. He joins the team completely unflagged. The team is out doing a Heroic. The griefer's Empire companions arrive (also unflagged) and watch. Republic griefer gets into a fight against enemies. During the fight, he flags himself. The healer is going to be too busy trying to heal to realize that the flag has spread. The Empire griefers can now jump in and start attacking the healer. The rest of the team now have to choose to join in to defend their healer from getting griefed, or stand by and do nothing.

 

It's a bit of an extreme and unlikely scenario, but the exploit for griefing is there. The alternate scenario with the suggestion that players must manually flag: When the Empire griefer flags himself, he stops receiving heals from the healer. The healer will be puzzled at why the heals aren't working. Wanna-be griefer-traitor dies because he flagged himself, rest of the team only has to deal with the NPCs. The Empire griefers waiting on the sideline can do nothing.

 

Here's another flag exploit that exists in when "direct attacks at a flagged player auto-flag": Republic and Empire players are in a duel. In the middle of the fight, one side activates their PvP flag. The opposing player also gets flagged. Griefing may now commence.

 

Here's a good reason why all auto-flags should be disabled by default: If a flagged enemy can force a PvE player to be flagged against their will, than flags are pointless. You might as well just forget the flags and be open world, because that's what the system is. With open world PvP, why bother with keeping the PvE and PvP servers apart?

 

On a PvE server, I should never be killed by an enemy player unless I choose to fight that player. If I don't want to fight, I should be free to play as if that enemy player did not exist, and there should be nothing that player could do to me that couldn't already be done by an allied player. I believe there's already an option to automatically reject all duel requests just so that PvPers can't annoy with requests in the hopes that the griefee clicks "accept" by mistake.

 

I don't mind if there's an option somewhere for turning these auto-flags on or off, but on a PvE server, I don't see why anyone would want auto-flags unless they're the type of person who likes walking around flagged all the time anyway, and they don't need auto-flag since they'd already be flagged. Maybe they want it because they forgot. Having the option there doesn't hurt anyone, just have it off by default. Those that really want it can turn it on.

[Ruwe]

/signed

 

I have first hand experience with "unwanted" pvp. Don't get me wrong, I pvp, but there are times when I want to turn my flag off and concentrate on PVE. Here is my first hand experience.

 

I was in a pvp zone, went to join some guild mates to get the magenta crystal. I unflagged, but we didn't wait the flag out. We were attacking the lvl 50 champion that spawns the crystals when a stealthy sith pops into the middle of us and proceeds to annihilate our healer (me) and them moves onto the rest of the group. Ok, my fault, I was still flagged, no big deal.

 

Here is where it started getting to me. We all unflag, wait it out, go back to the lvl 50 champion and proceed to start the fight again, suddenly our tank is flagged, then because I am healing him, I am flagged. Wha??? what just happened???? Oh, here's mister stealthy sith stealthed just inside of our tanks aoe range.... perfect. We all die again and when the champ turns to the sith he stealths out of combat. (we were fresh 50's and that champ hits like a truck).

 

So we were of course irritated, but hey whatever we'll just do it again. NO AOE ANYONE, I don't care that it's your best skill!! I'll just have to heal through any aggro I get! We go on to the fight again, and sure enough, that damn stealthy is in and out of our fight constantly, running in circles through the battle, attacking the Mob every now and then, jumping up and down in front of me... Luckily the third time was the charm and we managed to kill the boss anyway, and low and behold the stealthy is nowhere to be seen, he disappeared once the boss got to about 10k health.

 

Make the PVP flag turn on when you enter a pvp zone, and if your not in a zone the only way to turn it on is to manually flag yourself. Get rid of involuntary PVP on PVE servers. If I wanted PVP all the time I would have rolled that way

[Darth-Piranha]

/signed

 

I don't like being forced into pvp and so its like I have to avoid using AoE casts because some jerk is probably stealthing near by, waiting?

[TheRealDestian]

/signed

[Tiddymun]

/signed

 

This is a game-breaker for me so will be keeping an eye out for a swift official response.

[Vorrek]

I'm right there with you all. Don't let me affect a flagged PVPer. I'm on a PVE server for a reason. The only place I actually WANT to PVP is the warzones. Otherwise, don't flag me EVER!

 

That includes being in a group with a flagged person. If they flag themselves, well, then my buffs shouldn't hit them, no heals should hit them, it's on THEM that they flagged themselves. Don't drag me in to your fight without asking.

 

NO UNINTENTIONAL PVP on a PVE server. Period.

[Glzmo]

I can't believe you still get flagged for PVP when mistakenly applying beneficial and harmful effects to a flagged character. Non-flagged player characters shouldn't be able to apply any of those to flagged characters at all.

 

How often have we told them in Beta to change it for player characters that aren't currently flagged for PVP to be unable to apply them on a player character that's currently flagged for PVP at all? It can't be that hard, can it? Other, much older games handle(d) it much bette. One more design flaw that TOR has, I guess.

[Shoraan]

/signed

 

As stated a few times in one of the quoted threads, I would very much like to see the possibility to become flagged implicitly by using an AoE/buff/heal completely removed.

 

I could suggest a few ways to have the playing field levelled, so that PvP players on a PvE server might be hindered in their gameplay, but I just want to see the auto-flagging gone.

[doublehelix]

Are we ever going to get an official response on this one ?

[Sabarok]

Are we ever going to get an official response on this one ?

 

Doubtful. Bioware made it clear that they aren't going to respond to every issue, and this issue has more people afraid of being affected by it than have actually been affected by it. Also, I have yet to see a single Bioware response in any of the Suggestion Box threads. They're reading, compiling, and sending it off to the project managers. The most likely time Bioware will respond is when the change is either rejected or when the change is ready to go to the public test server. There's also a good chance we won't know the response until we see it in the patch notes, and I doubt it'll be to this Suggestion Box thread.

 

The only thing that will determine the priority of resolving this issue will be harassment tickets. If Bioware doesn't see tickets, they don't see it as an issue to resolve which puts it at a very low priority to fix. The more tickets they see, the more incentive they have to fix it.

 

From what I've read so far, more players have quit in fear of the issue than have actually encountered the issue.

 

I'm just making a realistic assessment. I want to see auto-flags removed or, at the least, made an option.

[VarnieTsk]

Doubtful. Bioware made it clear that they aren't going to respond to every issue, and this issue has more people afraid of being affected by it than have actually been affected by it. Also, I have yet to see a single Bioware response in any of the Suggestion Box threads. They're reading, compiling, and sending it off to the project managers. The most likely time Bioware will respond is when the change is either rejected or when the change is ready to go to the public test server. There's also a good chance we won't know the response until we see it in the patch notes, and I doubt it'll be to this Suggestion Box thread.

 

The only thing that will determine the priority of resolving this issue will be harassment tickets. If Bioware doesn't see tickets, they don't see it as an issue to resolve which puts it at a very low priority to fix. The more tickets they see, the more incentive they have to fix it.

 

From what I've read so far, more players have quit in fear of the issue than have actually encountered the issue.

 

I'm just making a realistic assessment. I want to see auto-flags removed or, at the least, made an option.

 

Well, for the most part I agree with you. It's not so simplistic, though, as saying "quitting in fear of the issue." It's more a matter of quitting because of the unpleasantness of having to constantly take measures to avoid being pvp flagged on a pve server. All the things people keep posting, be aware, don't use your aoes, turn off your companion's aoes, wait for potential griefers to leave the area, etc.

 

That takes the enjoyment out of the game, even if you end up not getting griefed. I haven't been griefed yet but I've been very careful. I shouldn't have to be.

 

I have, however, been involuntarily flagged by areas I've run into on my speeder & was too far in to get out in time by the time I saw the warning. I've also been flagged by running into an area and getting stunned by the high level npcs & killed before I could get back out.

 

That wouldn't have been so bad if it weren't for the fact that I then had to sit in a cantina for 5 minutes. So I said scr** that & switched to an alt. The next day I logged back in to find that I'm still flagged. Sorry, no logging out, you have to sit out that 5 minutes with your thumb in your ***.

 

And dont' even get me started on the pvp areas they conveniently place in your way for some quests. Sure they have some kind of covert way around it but it's so obscure that you have to be truly determined to go through the bother of trying to find it.

 

So to say that someone is quitting for fear of getting griefed, which may or may not actually happen, is just not the whole story. It's the constant effort involved in trying to remain unflagged on a so-called "PVE" server. That's just not fun and shouldn't be necessary.

 

PS: I could add to that, let's reverse it. Let's say that you're a pvper and you can't hit anyone at any time without having to go through a 5 minute process to flag yourself. And then, on top of that, every time you turn around there's some game mechanic that keep unflagging you. Plus other players have to ability to grief-unflag you and you have to go through the 5 minute process again. And you have to alter your game play in a constant effort to remain flagged. Do you suppose there wouldn't be screaming on the forums and people rage-quitting over that?

Edited January 24, 2012 by VarnieTsk