PvP 'DPS' Immortal Build 32/7/2

[Lord_Itharius]

If a player goes deep vengeance and considers it to be a viable PvP build then they simply havn't paid attention or do not play with competitive groups. It offers bad DPS and the only benefit of deep veng is not getting knocked around by the billion sorc/sages out there.

 

It definitely doesn't offer bad DPS. A 33 veng build is similar to feral druid in WoW in that it has a heavy dot component as well as a lot of burst, though not as much as a Rage build, plus there are plenty of talents such as Unstoppable that decrease damage taken.

 

You'll get knocked around by sorc/sages as any spec, you'll just have free chilling scream and two extra stuns as immortal at the expense of less dps, putting you at a disadvantage in engagements in which you aren't the focus target minus the whole support role.

 

Nice guide, though. I just felt like it was important to defend a shatter vengeance build for PvP, because it's certainly viable from my experience.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Lord_Itharius

[Schwarzwald]

It definitely doesn't offer bad DPS. A 33 veng build is similar to feral druid in WoW in that it has a heavy dot component as well as a lot of burst, though not as much as a Rage build, plus there are plenty of talents such as Unstoppable that decrease damage taken.

 

You'll get knocked around by sorc/sages as any spec, you'll just have free chilling scream and two extra stuns as immortal at the expense of less dps, putting you at a disadvantage in engagements in which you aren't the focus target minus the whole support role.

 

Nice guide, though. I just felt like it was important to defend a shatter vengeance build for PvP, because it's certainly viable from my experience.

 

 

Deep vengeance is a sustained DPS tree. While sustained DPS is nice in PvP (see combat rogues from vanilla wow) Its not going to win you warzones (because AR, BF, Prep was only good in season 2 2v2s). Shatter is primarily a PvE skill and doesn't help you burst down targets.

 

Getting knocked around isn't really a problem in immortal b/c the time they gained for what ever purpose is going to be negated by abilities you used to get back to them (like charge, a stun, what ever)

 

Unstoppable is good, but I don't see it as necessary. If you get knocked into the pit in huttball and are all by yourself and can't charge/intercede to someone, then you simply over extended yourself. Something like Unstoppable is only allowing you to be more aggressive in those niche situations.

 

But if you weren't over extended as immortal (something that is done by smart play) Then you can easily charge/intercede back into the action.

[Schwarzwald]

I did a few warzones yesterday without Unyielding and it went ok. I maybe just had to be a bit more careful about when to use my rage generating abilities. I definitely had less rage, but the build can function without Unyielding.

 

Managing rage is pretty important, try working on it so it becomes second nature.

 

IMO our class has the hardest energy expenditure then any others.

 

I don't see the problem with putting points into unyielding, I just feel that if you want to Min/Max your stats then Dreadnaut helps you do that more then Unyielding would

[dcjoker]

Deep vengeance is a sustained DPS tree. While sustained DPS is nice in PvP (see combat rogues from vanilla wow) Its not going to win you warzones (because AR, BF, Prep was only good in season 2 2v2s). Shatter is primarily a PvE skill and doesn't help you burst down targets.

 

Getting knocked around isn't really a problem in immortal b/c the time they gained for what ever purpose is going to be negated by abilities you used to get back to them (like charge, a stun, what ever)

 

Unstoppable is good, but I don't see it as necessary. If you get knocked into the pit in huttball and are all by yourself and can't charge/intercede to someone, then you simply over extended yourself. Something like Unstoppable is only allowing you to be more aggressive in those niche situations.

 

But if you weren't over extended as immortal (something that is done by smart play) Then you can easily charge/intercede back into the action.

 

Look there are benefits and sacrifices you have to make for each build. It's silly to think that vengeance has no burst damage - it does - it just isn't tied to one ability like in rage.

 

First I need to point out that if you are killing your target faster than 12 seconds consistently as immortal then sure I'll concede shatter would not be be ideal for you. However, notwithstanding that situation I fail to see how shatter doesn't help me kill targets - it does pretty good damage, leaves a pretty significant dot, and has a 9 second cooldown while buffing my crit on force scream and vicious throw by 60% for 9 seconds.

 

Would I take this ability over crushing blow? Hell yes.

 

Now if your target is pretty low health already it would be foolish of you to use shatter and argue that it's useless because the dots didn't tick - you have other tools for that situation (impale, scream, vicious throw).

 

While I agree that there are benefits to immortal dismissing valid arguments for why vengeance is viable with nonsense isn't helping your cause.

 

I'll take your above language and emphasize it to show you what you've done.

 

Unstoppable (one aspect of vengeance) is good, but I don't see it as necessary. If you get knocked into the pit in huttball and are all by yourself and can't charge/intercede to someone (in one extreme example under specific extreme circumstances if this specific thing happens), then you simply over extended yourself (then you're using the spec I like wrong, because this never happens to me). Something like Unstoppable is only allowing you to be more aggressive in those niche situations (I need to emphasize here that factually and actually it's allowing me 4 seconds of guaranteed non-cc'd uptime on my target every 15 seconds while taking 20% less damage - so yeah it has more than just this one use)

 

But if you weren't over extended as immortal (something that is done by smart play) (if you aren't terribad) Then you can easily charge/intercede back into the action (then you can use abilities).

 

 

The gist of your argument:

"one aspect of vengeance is good but not necessary because in one situation i can think of under specific extreme circumstances where it could be useful - i wouldn't have had the problem in the first place as immortal because that situation never happens to me because I am better than all of you. but when it does happen to me it doesn't bother me because another ability makes me feel better about my disadvantage."

 

Here I'll insert different variables into your argument:

 

Backhand is good, but I don't see it as necessary. If you charge somebody with a full resolve bar then you are bad, regardless of whether or not that person is trying to take a node. Something like backhand is only allowing you to be useful where you charge a target who is taking a node that never gets cc'd.

 

But if you were vengeance spec'd and used shatter (something that is done by smart play) Then you can easily prevent your target from capping for 12 seconds.

 

TLDR - your argument is absurd.

Edited January 26, 2012 by dcjoker

[Schwarzwald]

Shatter is 5 rage, its not burst and easily gets outhealed.

[dcjoker]

Shatter is 5 rage, its not burst and easily gets outhealed.

 

yes because vengeance only has shatter.

[Schwarzwald]

yes because vengeance only has shatter.

 

Is this thread called a vengeance build? No.

 

This is a thread about a defensive utility play style, which is something that vengeance lacks entirely.

[dcjoker]

Is this thread called a vengeance build? No.

 

This is a thread about a defensive utility play style, which is something that vengeance lacks entirely.

 

That wasn't your argument. Your argument was that vengeance is not viable. You brought it up so don't backpedal into this argument now.

[Kyle_Lin]

Some PvP input.

 

I switched to my alt yesterday (JK), resetted its abilities and made him purely def (lvl39 btw). Its a different and hard playstyle, protecting others while fightning at the same time.

 

On voidstar I got 9 medals (first time in my life), and 5 MVP votes. So it seems juggs (namely us) really underrate the value of protection, but others dont.

 

There is a need for pvp tanks out there. Give it a try.

[Dracosz]

Is this thread called a vengeance build? No.

 

This is a thread about a defensive utility play style, which is something that vengeance lacks entirely.

 

Fellow battlemaster weighing in.

 

Vengeance does NOT lack defensive utility playstyle, not only do you have a reduced CD on your intimidating scream, but you also take less damage when you charge in or intercede to an ally. You still have taunt and threatening scream and while you won't be guarding, you can STILL do damage.

[Sookster]

Fellow battlemaster weighing in.

 

Vengeance does NOT lack defensive utility playstyle, not only do you have a reduced CD on your intimidating scream, but you also take less damage when you charge in or intercede to an ally. You still have taunt and threatening scream and while you won't be guarding, you can STILL do damage.

 

I'll take backhand's stun, force charge's stun, unchanneled choke so I can still hammer away, sonic barrier, invincible, +6% def, +6% def with retalation, shorter unleash recharge, etc. Vengeance does much better in damage, but I don't like the tradeoff that much losing what I had in immortal.

[Dracosz]

I'll take backhand's stun, force charge's stun, unchanneled choke so I can still hammer away, sonic barrier, invincible, +6% def, +6% def with retalation, shorter unleash recharge, etc. Vengeance does much better in damage, but I don't like the tradeoff that much losing what I had in immortal.

 

I'll take CC immunity after charge, a 4% passive damage reduction and endurance, shien form, a free smash (ok we both get that but mine's always free), and the capacity to actually kill someone that's not braindead outside of cooldowns ^_^. Oh and pooled hatred is nice too.

 

At least we can agree that rage is a mindless spec

[DesperadoIG]

I've been running this for the past 2 days. This is definitely a spec that requires voip coordination, because pugs are absolutely awful, and relying on them to do ANYTHING right for your spec to work is just setting yourself up for massive failure.

 

I can't give my opinion since terrible pugs are my only frame of reference, but I will say that I'm absolutely going back to either vengeance or rage once I get home.

[dcjoker]

I'll take backhand's stun, force charge's stun, unchanneled choke so I can still hammer away, sonic barrier, invincible, +6% def, +6% def with retalation, shorter unleash recharge, etc. Vengeance does much better in damage, but I don't like the tradeoff that much losing what I had in immortal.

 

Crash = trash

[Esmeraldia]

Hi, just wondering what you guys might think about this immortal/vengeance sepc:

 

http://db.darthhater.com/talents/sith_warrior/juggernaut/#::ef2ef8ecfef3e7fe2f2cefe6f20:

 

it's more utility orientated than on dps

[Samurro]

Hi, just wondering what you guys might think about this immortal/vengeance sepc:

 

http://db.darthhater.com/talents/sith_warrior/juggernaut/#::ef2ef8ecfef3e7fe2f2cefe6f20:

 

it's more utility orientated than on dps

 

Unleashed, Crash and Shield Specialization are not worth it.

 

Btw

 

CB > Unstoppable any day for me.

[Esmeraldia]

does anyone play with War Leader Tank set ? if so, which spec du you use?

[Khabarach]

Hi, just wondering what you guys might think about this immortal/vengeance sepc:

 

http://db.darthhater.com/talents/sith_warrior/juggernaut/#::ef2ef8ecfef3e7fe2f2cefe6f20:

 

it's more utility orientated than on dps

I'd agree with the above that Crash and Shield Specialisation are fairly useless. Same goes for Quake, Revenge and Lash Out really, but unfortunately you are going to be stuck with at least some of them. Personally I'd keep Unleashed though, I'm not sure how reduced CD on your CC breaker is a bad thing.

 

Intimidation is incredibly useful for a utility build. Free spammable AoE is amazing in Voidstar both defensively and offensively for slowing the enemy from reaching the next objective and in Huttball for preventing people from catching up with the ball carrier. Chilling scream also reduces an enemies stealth level. While it wont take them out of stealth completely, it'll make them visible as if they had walked directly into your line of sight. Naturally this is most useful in Alderaan when defending a node.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Khabarach

[Schwarzwald]

Updated build: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101frhfzRbouRZhMRZM.1

 

So this is what I'm currently using. Dropped shield spec for Quake.

 

The reason why I am keeping quake and why I still think it is slight underrated by others is because the benefits extend beyond personal survivability. Technically, you should be able to keep that accuracy debuff on a certain target all the time if you dedicate the smashes too it.

 

So lets say in a situation where you are protecting a ball carrier or a healer from a pack of 3-4 guys, Quake is just one more ability which will mitigate the damage from multiple people. While you are probably skimming just a few numbers off the top in these situations, its those few 4-5k dmg saves that can make the difference in being able to get a heal off.

 

I took points out of Revenge and put 1 point into Unyielding because I think the Rage saves/gains favor Unyielding more, but this still allows you to take 2/2 Dreadnaut as well.

[Schwarzwald]

Some PvP input.

 

I switched to my alt yesterday (JK), resetted its abilities and made him purely def (lvl39 btw). Its a different and hard playstyle, protecting others while fightning at the same time.

 

On voidstar I got 9 medals (first time in my life), and 5 MVP votes. So it seems juggs (namely us) really underrate the value of protection, but others dont.

 

There is a need for pvp tanks out there. Give it a try.

 

Exactly!

 

Too many people are still in the WoW PvP mindset. B/c of the way fights played out in WoW, there was much more room for 'lone wolfing' it, thus making damaging enemies and personal survivability the focus of PvP.

 

Well, SW:ToR PvP allows for a tanking class which allows you to mitigate the damage of everyone in your group, which ultimately changes the dynamics of PvP entirely. You've added a class that can be a damage sponge whether the enemies are attacking the tank or not, which is EXTREMELY useful.

 

Thats the thing though. Any pure heavy tree specced playstyle is going to be much more difficult to play, but the rewards are so much better. Hybrid vengeance/whatever is much easier to play, but there is a cap to how much skill can influence your maximum beneficial output. You see this all the time with Sorcs who Hybrid Madness / what ever. They can keep themselves alive if they suck at kiting, but their damage is much more gimped compared to what a full Madness build would be.

 

The benefits from this build are sort of like healing. You arn't going to be that glorious wrecking ball that devastates enemies teams, its actually the opposite. You are that immovable object that is able to Guard a light armor teammate and taunt those CRAZY burst dps marauders which is able to keep your teammates alive through the burst rotations.

[Schwarzwald]

Fellow battlemaster weighing in.

 

Vengeance does NOT lack defensive utility playstyle, not only do you have a reduced CD on your intimidating scream, but you also take less damage when you charge in or intercede to an ally. You still have taunt and threatening scream and while you won't be guarding, you can STILL do damage.

 

Intimidating scream is amazing, I'll give you that, but not as amazing as Backhand and Unchanneled Force Choke. You do not have control over what allies are killing until we have 8 man premades, so in most situations I've seen my intimitading screams often being completely nullified by derpy teammates who just go ahead and break the incapacitate.

 

Thats all the added utility the build offers though.

 

I don't consider Unstoppable and Huddle to be utility, but more of passive defense abilities, but they are all situational and most of the heaviest Burst dmg will come after those abilities wear off.

 

Look at Marauders or Oper/Scound DMG rotations, most of them have a required rotation/set up time to be able to pull off those moves. Most often, you won't have Unstoppable up when you are getting jumped by a smuggler and if you charge or get charged by a marauder then you probably still won't have Unstoppable up once the Marauder gets into the harder hitting parts of his damage rotation.

 

The amazing utility behind the 2 added stuns in immortal is that they control players and also act as defensive abilities. You are shutting down another players ability to either heal or do damage for 4 seconds while allowing you to do other things (either damaging that target or switching to other targets to control). These are 2 added abilties that TAKE PEOPLE OUT OF THE FIGHT through taking damage. Intimidating scream does not do this.

 

Another reason why Vengeance does not fill the same roles as immortal is because you will be rage starved and useless when ever you stance dance into Soresu. Many people keep overlooking the fact that deep Immortal tree allows you to generate lots of rage WHILE being in the defensive stance, allowing you to continuously be doing something.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[Schwarzwald]

I'll take CC immunity after charge, a 4% passive damage reduction and endurance, shien form, a free smash (ok we both get that but mine's always free), and the capacity to actually kill someone that's not braindead outside of cooldowns ^_^. Oh and pooled hatred is nice too.

 

At least we can agree that rage is a mindless spec

 

All those abilities are added so that you are not entirely a glass cannon while in Shien form though and once you step into Soresu you get rage starved.

 

Also Pooled hatred is really bad imo. The skill looks nice on paper, but in practice the actual DMG increase you gain from the talents are probably less than 1% overall.

[Schwarzwald]

I've been running this for the past 2 days. This is definitely a spec that requires voip coordination, because pugs are absolutely awful, and relying on them to do ANYTHING right for your spec to work is just setting yourself up for massive failure.

 

I can't give my opinion since terrible pugs are my only frame of reference, but I will say that I'm absolutely going back to either vengeance or rage once I get home.

 

I 95% of the time run with a 4 man group from my guild.

 

The build still works with pugs, but it is intended for teamwork and group play.

[Schwarzwald]

does anyone play with War Leader Tank set ? if so, which spec du you use?

 

Currently, the tradeoff between being bale to do Damage and getting gained defensive abilities that only work against some attacks / player specs doesn't seem worth it.

 

Until they do something to change the way Defense works, then I would consider DMG gear to be more well suited to filling this build role. Also pure tanks are not as useful other then running a ball or defending a point. But all it amounts to is personal survivability. Your taunts , guards and other abilities work just as well in DPS gear as they do in Tanking gear.

[Khabarach]

So lets say in a situation where you are protecting a ball carrier or a healer from a pack of 3-4 guys, Quake is just one more ability which will mitigate the damage from multiple people. While you are probably skimming just a few numbers off the top in these situations, its those few 4-5k dmg saves that can make the difference in being able to get a heal off.

What classes hit for 4-5k white damage? Arguably Snipers might, but they are also going to be the most awkward to apply the debuff to in your example as they'll be 35 metres away.

Currently, the tradeoff between being bale to do Damage and getting gained defensive abilities that only work against some attacks / player specs doesn't seem worth it.

Don't forget the extra HP on the War Leaders gear though. It works out at about 2.5k overall (which it should be remembered also adds another ~700hp on top of that when using Endure Pain).

 

Overall I'm thinking a hybrid between the two might be best with mod swapping to fine tune it. The BM War Leader weapon for example trades 550 HP and 37 absorb against 26 strength and 77 power on the Vindicator version. Personally, despite the absorb, I'd still take the War Leader version in this case.