Expertise gear: Why its needed.

[Kjetl]

If expertise is included, it should ONLY be included for the underpopulated side.

[Celebrus]

So I would like you to tell me.. why is it that pvp players should not be rewarded for pvping. Why should pve be the only option to progress our characters? Why should I, a player who spends a considerable amount of time each week pvping, never see any forward progression?

 

While I agree with the core of your argument (that being the one about pvpers deserving a reward and incentive) I disagree that expertise is a requisite in order for the system to reward pvpers, there is no reason that PvP and PvE gear need to have a seperating statistic, other than to specifically grant an advantage to people that devote more time to the system. This does not mean more skill, or more hard working people, just people with more time and an urge to devote it to this specific facet of the game.

 

That said. No. Expertise is not needed. You have stated yourself that suppsedly PvPers desire an equal playing field, and as someone who has dedicated most of his time in this game to PvP, I can say that couldn't be further from the truth.

 

Expertise does not level the playing field between level 50s. The statistical improvements outside of expertise on the gear alone are enough to cause a rift between beginning level 50s and a champion geared player. When you bring expertise into the picture it only compounds the problem. Allowing a geared level 50 to utterly, completely, and totally dominate a beginning player REGARDLESS OF SKILL, in the majority.

 

You claim that you want equal footing, then make an argument supporting a system that grants a CLEAR advantage to people willing to pull countless all nighters for more comms and better valor rank.

 

To sum things up: you do not want equal footing. You want to roll around in your premies rolling pugs with <300 expertise all day. I don't blame you, because thats what PvPing is about, it's not about skill, or fun, or ability. It's about attaining gear and using that gear to dominate "lesser" players. God knows the world would end if a "carebear" PvE kiddy was to randomly Q up for a WZ and be on equal gear footing with a PvPer. Oh noez.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Celebrus

[CommandoPower]

Maybe it is because my pvp experience started way back in the grand daddy of all MMO's Ultima Online, but I have always thought the notion of stats like expertise and resilence were a crutch. I have always thought grinding to get gear specifically for pvp was silly, and I have always believed the penultimate reward for pvping was seeing my enemies fall before me, nothing more. If you pvp for any reason other than killing other players, you are not a true pvp'er and should really stop calling yourself one because you clearly don't understand what pvp means.

 

Back in those days the pvp environment was balanced, whether you were hardcore or casual. There was nothing separating one player from another other than the skill with which one wielded ones character. I am sorry but all these modern "techniques" and "reward" systems are nothing but crutches and carrots designed to help the unskilled feel mediocre and the "no lifers" feel some sense of accomplishment for spending all that time cooped up in their mom's basement. They are meant to keep you paying a sub, and have literally nothing whatsoever to do with pvp itself.

 

Back in UO my only reward for killing you as a player was that I could take your stuff, and more importantly I could collect your head as proof of killing you. Back in those days I built 3 little houses as museums for my victims with a single chair in the middle and the walls lined floor to ceiling with the heads of my victims. You could come and sit down, look at your head on one of the walls, and ponder how to beat me next time we crossed paths. What I earned for my time spent pvping back then was the sense of accomplishment knowing the sheer terror of my opponents when they knew I was in the vicinity and likely going to kill them. What more does a true pvp'er really need? Nothing!

 

That is how PvP used to be, that is what PvP should be, and to suggest you need anything more than this is to admit you are just another person looking for a prize for eating the most cracker jacks, and that doesn't make you a pvp'er. So many people today call themselves pvp'ers but in reality they are pve carebears who don't have enough time to raid so they look for an easier alternative to get their loot pinatas and try to turn pvp into that. It is a sad state of affairs, that I have seen get worse not better over the years since UO started this whole genre. Nuff said.

 

Have fun !

 

Not much different for me. I played DAOC.

 

I logged in every day not for rewards, but because that was OUR mother *********** keep and those dirty albs/hibs/mids were **** sure not going to keep it. I missed sleep because the keep raids ran late or the enemy tried to pull a surprise take at late hours. I once called in sick for a relic raid because hibs were being particularly annoying during that time.

 

Beyond realm pride I played for the sheer joy of smashing my opponent and being smashed. Knowing that when me and my team won all day long till zerged by sheer numbers that we did so through skill, coordination, and good play.

 

I took underpowered classes and rocked players playing the FOTM.

 

 

 

I never needed any L33T gear to make me PVP. I did so because it was a freakin blast and because I actually wanted my side to win. I was able to do the same thing in WAR to a lesser extent.

 

 

Everything else has been WOW Baby play. Gear carrot, hand holding, add-on carrying, macro using nonsense. Everybody wants to feel like a badazz, and companies try to cater to everyone. Let me tell you folks, not everyone is a badazz. Not even I. I'm just a badazz compared to most of the scrubs that play these days.

 

Originally Posted by Thellian

So I would like you to tell me.. why is it that pvp players should not be rewarded for pvping. Why should pve be the only option to progress our characters? Why should I, a player who spends a considerable amount of time each week pvping, never see any forward progression?

 

You should be rewarded just like Dark Age of Camelot with a dash of WAR.

 

1. Exp and coin for killing enemies.

2. Decent to good gear for your level via PVP

3. Best gear available via crafting, all crafting is useful

4. PVP specific skill progression tree allowing you to further personalize your character. DAOC and WAR both have good examples, though I belive the high end of each went a little too far, WAR specifically.

 

Dark Age of Camelot had a good balance on gear. It mattered but it definitely wasn't everything and it was fairly easy to achieve. Likely half the difference gear makes in this game.

Edited January 21, 2012 by CommandoPower

[Siraco]

Your entire post is based on a flawed premise.

 

I dont want to be rewarded for pvp'ing - I pvp for the sake of it because I like beating other players. What a soul shaking concept!.

That bit in bold means more than almost everything ever posted about expertise on here.

 

Rewards can be provided without a forced grind or purposely unbalancing pvp. Armor recolours, armor sets, weapon models, titles, a dozen other perks not related to stats.

 

 

Bioware is too stupid to realize this.

 

Blizzard knows this but they willfully force resilience gear grind on the game as part of their grind design philosophy (pun intended).

Edited January 21, 2012 by Siraco

[CIRSyndic]

I remember PVP when "competitive" wasn't about who has more/better gear, but who is a better player, as in outplaying someone.

 

I'm at the expertise soft-cap and its silly how I'm rolling non-geared people.

 

Biggest problem of all is there is no drawback to losing whatsoever. If there's an incentive to win, there should also be a consequence for losing.

 

This was most evident in Ilum with the patch, why was the farming so widespread? Because republic/imperial could respawn instantly after dying.

 

What if you took gear damage in PVP? What if you lost your gear when you died? What if you had gradually increasing ressurection timers like in PVE when you die?

 

The farm would have never happened because neither side could have sustained the losses. With nothing to lose, everyone's free to derp it up.

[samtc]

If you do not feel reward with fun doing PvP, than you doing it wrong. PvP games used to be about fun, now they are all about grind, because some people just need "reward", missing the point of pvp in the first place.

 

I do not care if PvEr or PvPer has better gear. And that comes from me, who hates raids and flashpoints and does them only once for story element.

 

I hate grind in all forms.

 

Your "reward" aka "item progression" is just bubble, carrot on stick. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you will see things more clearly.

 

I'm sorry that you dont enjoy getting gear for pvp or pve and think anyone that does is stupid but I believe its stupid for you to sit and post all day on forums instead of playing an amazing game lol have fun with your other posts that I'm sure contain NERF THIS OR IM UNSUBBING like the rest of the idiots here.

[Raice]

I read the entire OP and none of it really explained Expertise.

 

Expertise exists because of Ilum (primarily) and Open World PvP.

 

Better Gear is Better Gear. The Expertise adds an extra level of betterness to gear that is already better. If PvP were confined to the WZ... this extra level of betterness is completely unnecessary, because people in better gear are already better. But since Ilum is Open PvP.... there has to be a separation between people who leveled up in PvE and PvP.

 

But even still, there isn't really any end-game PvE content on Ilum (all the good stuff are FP Raids accessed from the Fleet) and even then... it's not a problem unless you're on a PvP server anyway. Which, to be honest.... if you rolled on a PvP server... you just need to suck it up. That's why they make different server rules in the first place. If you didn't want to deal with this, then you should have just rolled on a PvE server. Either way, the Expertise is just overkill functionality that already exists.

 

Essentially, this rewards players who spent the time to get the gear, and no one else. People who are currently TRYING to get the gear are severely penalized for playing the way they mostly enjoy. The difference is.... the ones who have the gear got there first... started playing first... something. They have a level of advantage that exists by virtue of the fact that their top PvP Gear is already better, without considering the Expertise.

 

The people who got there first, did not have to contend against someone who already had it. So their entire PvP career was quite enjoyable. Unfortunately, everyone after them is having a terribly frustrating time. I simply can't agree that this is a good thing in any capacity.

 

Also, the suggestion between PvE Gear vs PvP Gear is irrelevant because PvP Gear requires Comms obtained through PvP and PvE Gear requires Comms through PvE Raids. So you have venues for accessing rewards, whatever your play style is. This is a great thing! The pricing alone dictates that PvErs cannot obtain the PvP Gear without grinding the PvP circuit. it's the same time investment either way (not really, but anyway.) The Expertise is completely unnecessary in a WZ only environment.

 

 

Lastly... why should PvP Gear be viable in PvE at all? If Expertise exists so that PvE players cannot contend with PvP players, then so too must it be true the other way: PvP players should not be able to content with PvE players in the PvE content. They need to do another level of grinding for THAT Gear Set.

 

 

But none of that is even necessary either... because the Expertise concept is redundant in the first place.

[JTaliesin]

So I would like you to tell me.. why is it that pvp players should not be rewarded for pvping. Why should pve be the only option to progress our characters? Why should I, a player who spends a considerable amount of time each week pvping, never see any forward progression?

 

Why would you not be rewarded? You would be rewarded for your hard efforts. With higher tier gear with better stats. Just not expertise. No one said remove the gear. It's the expertise stat that has to go. Stop using backwards logic to try and keep it. The idea that there needs to be separate gear for pvp/pve is faulty logic left over from WoW when the best gear you could get was raid gear. So the pve raiders had better gear than pvpers and could faceroll them at will with no skill. This is wrong, we can all agree on that. The solution at the time was pvp gear with a pvp stat.

 

That said.. ask yourself this. Why do you feel it's necessary to put up a barrier between pvp and pve? That's what expertise is. It makes it so people who pve are not competitive in pvp, pretty much at all. However, pvp gear is still better than the low end pve gear and you can easily do flashpoints and hardmodes in champion gear. Its a serious barrier between players that are forced to choose which half of the fun they are going to play. How messed up is that?

 

If the top tier pvp gear has the same stats as top tier pve gear, and both can be acquired with the same amount of dailies/weeklies time/effort, there should be no complaining about gear. If you are worried about a guild of players with pve gear kicking your butt and you have the same stats on your pvp gear, guess what? You got beat by skill my friend, and you deserved to lose.

 

I really just dont see why we should be forced to choose between pvp and pve. Expertise has gotta go. What will be on the next tier gear after battlemaster? MORE EXPERTISE?!? F' that man. Then you will have supermasters facerolling fresh 50's in no gear and people QQ'ing for separate brackets for fresh 50's, full champs, full battlemaster, and your new whatchacallits with the supermasterblasters.

[Almghty_gir]

there are players i know, in fact some are in my guild, who played guild wars and are INSANELY proud of the fact that they were awarded a gold cloak, for being the top on their server.

 

that's what kind of pvp rewards we should be trying to get. things that people will see us wearing and think "damn he's the one to beat"... not "moar numbers!"

[Razot]

Maybe it is because my pvp experience started way back in the grand daddy of all MMO's Ultima Online, but I have always thought the notion of stats like expertise and resilence were a crutch. I have always thought grinding to get gear specifically for pvp was silly, and I have always believed the penultimate reward for pvping was seeing my enemies fall before me, nothing more. If you pvp for any reason other than killing other players, you are not a true pvp'er and should really stop calling yourself one because you clearly don't understand what pvp means.

 

Back in those days the pvp environment was balanced, whether you were hardcore or casual. There was nothing separating one player from another other than the skill with which one wielded ones character. I am sorry but all these modern "techniques" and "reward" systems are nothing but crutches and carrots designed to help the unskilled feel mediocre and the "no lifers" feel some sense of accomplishment for spending all that time cooped up in their mom's basement. They are meant to keep you paying a sub, and have literally nothing whatsoever to do with pvp itself.

 

Back in UO my only reward for killing you as a player was that I could take your stuff, and more importantly I could collect your head as proof of killing you. Back in those days I built 3 little houses as museums for my victims with a single chair in the middle and the walls lined floor to ceiling with the heads of my victims. You could come and sit down, look at your head on one of the walls, and ponder how to beat me next time we crossed paths. What I earned for my time spent pvping back then was the sense of accomplishment knowing the sheer terror of my opponents when they knew I was in the vicinity and likely going to kill them. What more does a true pvp'er really need? Nothing!

 

That is how PvP used to be, that is what PvP should be, and to suggest you need anything more than this is to admit you are just another person looking for a prize for eating the most cracker jacks, and that doesn't make you a pvp'er. So many people today call themselves pvp'ers but in reality they are pve carebears who don't have enough time to raid so they look for an easier alternative to get their loot pinatas and try to turn pvp into that. It is a sad state of affairs, that I have seen get worse not better over the years since UO started this whole genre. Nuff said.

 

Have fun !

 

If i wasnt a guy i would want your baby yo!

[Xeikai]

PVP gear was created to keep pve nerds from being able to dominate pvp and pve with one gear set while those who were pvp enthusiasts were stuck in the cold with no options but to raid to aquire gear to pvp in. The expertise stat will give pvp'ers the edge in pvp while pve'ers either have to grind pvp gear if they want to be on the same level as the pvp'ers, or get used to being a confetti balloon when they are focused.

 

Sorry, but you cant have pve gear that is better than pvp gear for pvp. Deal with it, grind your gear like everyone else.

[Almghty_gir]

PVP gear was created to keep pve nerds from being able to dominate pvp and pve with one gear set while those who were pvp enthusiasts were stuck in the cold with no options but to raid to aquire gear to pvp in. The expertise stat will give pvp'ers the edge in pvp while pve'ers either have to grind pvp gear if they want to be on the same level as the pvp'ers, or get used to being a confetti balloon when they are focused.

 

Sorry, but you cant have pve gear that is better than pvp gear for pvp. Deal with it, grind your gear like everyone else.

 

you're missing the point.

[JTaliesin]

But since Ilum is Open PvP.... there has to be a separation between people who leveled up in PvE and PvP.

 

NO! NO THERE DOES NOT! WHY?!? I stopped reading after this. WHY?!? What makes anyone think like this? This is a game! PvP is FUN! PvE is FUN! Why are you forcing people to choose just ONE!? If you have your gear earned from pve , and I have my gear earned from pvp, and it has the SAME STATS, no expertise crap, and you come and faceroll me and my buddies, well guess what? GOOD JOB!! Instead, as it is now, I would just take my expertise and slap you silly. That's not fun for either of us as it requires no skill on my part and you have no chance.

 

There is no reason I should'nt be able to run a flashpoint with my friends and guildmates, and then jump into a queue for a warzone or go to Ilum for some good open world fights without requiring some special gear with an additional stat on it just for that one style of play.

The idea that you have to make one set of gear (pvp vs pve) better somehow is just stupid, and it creates a barrier between players who just want to OMG, HAVE FUN WITH OTHER PLAYERS.

I have no issue with gear getting better with the base stats as the tiers go up. But imagine 2 years down the road when there are additional tiers for both pvp and pve. You will absolutely be forcing players to choose PvP, or PvE, and then stick to it, to get the high end gear, and they won't be able to ever have fun doing the other unless they invest massive amounts of time to work their way up the other tier and thats just dumb.

 

Are we not supposed to be able to enjoy all aspects of this game?

[Razot]

While also eliminating the subscriptions from the people who enjoy grinding out gear that will make their character more powerful.

 

Good thinking.

 

Well if i had to choose, i would take the real pvp crowd, the casuals, the pve/pvp people, and everyone from 1-49 over the few gear grinders in this game that will basically end up with no pew pew in a few months.

 

You greed types have a home already and its called WoW.. Expertise is causing 75% or more of the problems in this games PVP.

[OrionBowman]

PVP gear was created to keep pve nerds from being able to dominate pvp and pve with one gear set while those who were pvp enthusiasts were stuck in the cold with no options but to raid to aquire gear to pvp in. The expertise stat will give pvp'ers the edge in pvp while pve'ers either have to grind pvp gear if they want to be on the same level as the pvp'ers, or get used to being a confetti balloon when they are focused.

 

Sorry, but you cant have pve gear that is better than pvp gear for pvp. Deal with it, grind your gear like everyone else.

 

Well said, exactly what I was thinking.

[JTaliesin]

PVP gear was created to keep pve nerds from being able to dominate pvp and pve with one gear set while those who were pvp enthusiasts were stuck in the cold with no options but to raid to aquire gear to pvp in. The expertise stat will give pvp'ers the edge in pvp while pve'ers either have to grind pvp gear if they want to be on the same level as the pvp'ers, or get used to being a confetti balloon when they are focused.

 

Sorry, but you cant have pve gear that is better than pvp gear for pvp. Deal with it, grind your gear like everyone else.

 

The first part of your statement is correct. I have full champion gear and can use that gear in hardmode flashpoints without any problems. Why is the reverse not supposed to be true? Where did you think anyone said that pve gear would be better than pvp gear? Make em the same, then you get yours how you want and I get mine how I want and if one of us beats the other it came down to skill and not gear, and thats what pvp is about. Player vs Player. Not Gear vs Player.

Edited January 21, 2012 by JTaliesin

[BDutch]

Well if i had to choose, i would take the real pvp crowd, the casuals, the pve/pvp people, and everyone from 1-49 over the few gear grinders in this game that will basically end up with no pew pew in a few months.

 

No kidding. The people that get bored when they run out of gear to grind for are never satisfied for long.

Edited January 21, 2012 by BDutch

[Chal]

This thread is ridiculous.

 

 

The ONLY thing people need to do is watch their own lane. Not worry about what joe blow does down the street, we call you people busybodies, those that cry and stomp on their soapboxes about what the person on the otherside of the fence is doing.

 

Work within the mechanics the devs have made in the game, voice opinion with the devs to get it changed if you want, do not berate or otherwise whine about other people and how or why they choose to get gear one way or the other.

 

 

Busybodies simply ruin gaming. Worry about yourself and no one else. And this is the kicker, if you dont like it, leave.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Chal

[AesirUesugi]

Really you guys are still complaining about this after the only 50 bracket has been introduced? Im totally behind the OP on this.

[Terrahero]

PVP gear was created to keep pve nerds from being able to dominate pvp and pve with one gear set while those who were pvp enthusiasts were stuck in the cold with no options but to raid to aquire gear to pvp in. The expertise stat will give pvp'ers the edge in pvp while pve'ers either have to grind pvp gear if they want to be on the same level as the pvp'ers, or get used to being a confetti balloon when they are focused.

 

Sorry, but you cant have pve gear that is better than pvp gear for pvp. Deal with it, grind your gear like everyone else.

 

There are other, better, alternatives to keep that from happening. And no one is asking for pve gear to be better then pvp gear. You completely missed the point, reread and do some thinking and return when you feel you are truely ready to engage in a stimulating discussion.

[Xeikai]

There are other, better, alternatives to keep that from happening. And no one is asking for pve gear to be better then pvp gear. You completely missed the point, reread and do some thinking and return when you feel you are truely ready to engage in a stimulating discussion.

 

Part of the MMO genre has always been you put in effort to acquire gear, that has always been the mmo standard. This holds true for both PvE and PvP. If you want a level playing field where everyone has the same stats, You might as well play Call of Duty or some other Class based FPS game.

 

Configuring gear and stats and gear addons, choosing your specific build, be it cookie cutter or your own build is what mmo's are about. Blizzard created a PvP stat was because around tier 3 of their vanilla raid content. Grand Marshals/High Warlords were outgeared by people in AQ/Naxx gear, This forced them to have to raid to stay competitive.

 

Not to mention the theory crafting that comes into the mix from the different numbers on gear. People actually enjoy crunching math numbers to find the most optimal combination of gear, weather it be a majority of PvP gear and maybe some pve trinkets. or whatever. It adds a layer of depth to the game that most people dont even bother to see. Be thankful that alot of these people who do run the numbers game create websites and share their findings for those interested. cause they could use that information to dominate us with a gear edge we never knew existed because they put in the work to find that hidden edge. It all comes back to extra layers of depth. whether it be from having clutch reflexes to being good with numbers and theory crafting.

 

An excellent example of depth using numbers is frame data in fighting games. Most people dont even know it exists or has anything to do with the games advanced play, But people who study frame data are the ones who know exactly how much recovery is on one move and if it has an avalible counter. These people also create combos from frame data, by crunching numbers.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Xeikai

[Swaggz]

PVP gear was created to keep pve nerds from being able to dominate pvp and pve with one gear set while those who were pvp enthusiasts were stuck in the cold with no options but to raid to aquire gear to pvp in. The expertise stat will give pvp'ers the edge in pvp while pve'ers either have to grind pvp gear if they want to be on the same level as the pvp'ers, or get used to being a confetti balloon when they are focused.

 

Sorry, but you cant have pve gear that is better than pvp gear for pvp. Deal with it, grind your gear like everyone else.

 

PvE nerds...Hmmm, I guess if we're going to do some mud slinging, you'd fall in to the PvP QQ OMG YOUR CLASS IS OP CRY CRY CRY crowd.

 

But in all seriousness, as someone who does both PvE and PvP I wouldn't mind seeing expertice going away. Both sets of gear (PvE and PvP) are grind fests. Some people prefer one over the other. Have the gear have similar stats and a different look, but if you want to make them specific, just keep the set bonus' different. All you would have to do is keep both PvE and PvP gear progression on par with each other and there won't be a massive stat difference. You can even have certain types of relics/mods/weapons, etc only available in one or the other which would give people more incentive to do both. That way if someone who PvP's quite a bit wants to try PvE, they don't have to restart the grind and Visa Versa.

 

OH, and here's a question to the PvP only crowd. If the gear from both PvE and PvP are on par with each other and someone who PvE's mainly comes in and smokes you over and over, wouldn't that mean that you aren't good at what you do in game?

[Dalnar]

Part of the MMO genre has always been you put in effort to acquire gear, that has always been the mmo standard.

 

Always ? ALWAYS ? I feel old when I read posts such as this...

[RpTheHotrod]

I say have the game be about the person, not PvP crowds vs PvE. Who has the right to say someone who raids isn't allowed to participate in PvP and vice versa.

 

Expertise is just a HASSLE, nothing more. You have to carry around multiple sets of gear and swap them out constantly.

 

If you did indeed want to have a separation of PvE and PvP, then have two "careers" for a character. The moment they zone into a warzone, all of their gear is swapped out to a "standard" PVP set. As they get better in PvP, they get better upgrades to their PvP gear. The moment they leave the warzone, they are back to their PvE gear. No cross contamination.

 

Why couldn't there be a system where you could have a character that was level 50 PvE and level 23 PvP?

[Killadrix]

I say have the game be about the person, not PvP crowds vs PvE. Who has the right to say someone who raids isn't allowed to participate in PvP and vice versa.

 

Expertise is just a HASSLE, nothing more. You have to carry around multiple sets of gear and swap them out constantly.

 

If you did indeed want to have a separation of PvE and PvP, then have two "careers" for a character. The moment they zone into a warzone, all of their gear is swapped out to a "standard" PVP set. As they get better in PvP, they get better upgrades to their PvP gear. The moment they leave the warzone, they are back to their PvE gear. No cross contamination.

 

Why couldn't there be a system where you could have a character that was level 50 PvE and level 23 PvP?

 

This is such an easy and amazing idea that no current MMO developer has used it.

 

I wonder why?

 

As I've said numerous times: most of you looking at expertise as being bad aren't thinking about how removing it will effect overall game balance or subscriptions.