What's your guys' problem with "hardcore" players anyways?

[kaseoi]

I have nothing against hardcore players, I just have a problem with the one's who are cocky and think they own the world and think it has to cater to their every needs and demands. Plus the one's with the attitude, nothing is more annoying than that to me. Edited January 20, 2012 by kaseoi

[MrTijger]

Curious thing is, the hardcore-segment of the playerbase is generally far, far, far more coherent, reasonable and sensible in their line of argumentation, as well as in their demands, than the casuals.

 

Well, thats not the way they have been behaving here over the last month, sorry.

 

Also, the whole point of casuals is that they tend not to make demands because they dont tend to frequent the forums.

[Shadowswillm]

Serious note for me. People that want to be good at a game should look to be over the bar that the "hardcore" players set. Once those "casual" players reach that bar the "hardcore" need to step it up a noch, thus making every one better players; to keep up with each other. Asking for the bar to be lowered is a step backwards.

 

Think of it in terms of pole vaulting. When the person runs to the bar and they fail, they don't ask for it to be lowered they get up and continue trying until they go over the bar and then the bar is raised and the process continues. It is the same logic and rule that should be applied to MMO's and most video games in general.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Shadowswillm

[amnie]

I have nothing against hardcore players, I just have a problem with the one's who are cocky and think they own the world and think it has to cater to their every needs and demands. Plus the one's with the attitude, nothing is more annoying than that to me.

 

the thing is, the 'actual' hardcore player are nothing like that. they make live-videos of their raids, guide people, help out others who are new to the game even. and if a game becomes too easy they leave. (or sometimes they have other reasons)

[Conundrum-NSA]

Thats not what the majority are asking for however. I'm sure its this hysteria that causes the agro. (Also, I'm using 'Hardcore' in the term that the community here does, ie. someone who plays to compete, as opposed to playing cause 'its just a game, enjoy it')

 

I've been playing MMOs 16 years and I can assure you that is EXACTLY what most of the hardcore want, and actively come out against anything that isn't that, especially anything that is "fluff".

[Syylara]

The parade of comparisons between in-game accomplishments and actual real-life feats of athletic prowess or contributions to humanity are always fun.

 

That and the insistence that any "hardcore" players who aren't shining examples of altruism personified aren't "true hardcore" players.

 

Just accept that there are a lot of snobbish, self-entitled and self-righteous folks in that camp. I'm not saying whether it is a majority or a disproportionately vocal minority or plurality, I haven't done any surveys on the subject.

 

If you aren't one of them, be happy with that.

 

But don't try and peddle this idea that the "hardcore" by definition are always good, kind, helpful people who's ideas make the game better for everyone. There's plenty of them who just bring an overly prevalent "hoarding" and "whats best for me and mine, screw everyone else, they're just jealous haters" attitude that permeates our society into a leisure activity.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Syylara

[aimbotcfg]

I've been playing MMOs 16 years and I can assure you that is EXACTLY what most of the hardcore want, and actively come out against anything that isn't that, especially anything that is "fluff".

 

But none of them have asked for it HERE. The requests have been 'please fix this bug' 'pleases balance x to y' 'please add this feature'. They still get jumped on for being 'eliteist' and get the whole 'we dont want your kind here' thing.

[MrTijger]

But none of them have asked for it HERE. The requests have been 'please fix this bug' 'pleases balance x to y' 'please add this feature'. They still get jumped on for being 'eliteist' and get the whole 'we dont want your kind here' thing.

 

Someone who comes here and posts a barely legible post and then continues to call everyone a bad who doesnt agree with him gets jumped on, yeah, presentation and some skill in argueing your point without insulting others go a long way.

 

Also, this game attracts a lot of older players, many of us were once hardcore ourselves, we know what we play and why we play it.

Edited January 20, 2012 by MrTijger

[Shadowswillm]

The parade of comparisons between in-game accomplishments and actual real-life feats of athletic prowess or contributions to humanity are always fun.

 

That and the insistence that any "hardcore" players who aren't shining examples of altruism personified aren't "true hardcore" players.

 

Just accept that there are a lot of snobbish, self-entitled and self-righteous folks in that camp. I'm not saying whether it is a majority or a disproportionately vocal minority or plurality, I haven't done any surveys on the subject.

 

If you aren't one of them, be happy with that.

 

But don't try and peddle this idea that the "hardcore" by definition are always good, kind, helpful people who's ideas make the game better for everyone. There's plenty of them who just bring an overly prevalent "hoarding" and "whats best for me and mine, screw everyone else, they're just jealous haters" attitude that permeates our society into a leisure activity.

 

 

Oh I know plenty of "hardcore" players that are complete and total snobs and thing that they are jebus' gift to the world. I am not saying that at all, merely saying that those who ask complain about buffs/nerfs on a patchy basis(meaning every time a new patch comes out the SAME people complain about a buff to a class they don't play or a nerf to a class they do play) should maybe seek help from the "hardcore" players and ask them how to get over that bar.

 

If the bar keeps getting lowered we get faceroll content like what we see in many other games now. I for one want a challenge and welcome it.

[Catch_TwentyTwo]

Because it seems to me the only thing you dislike about hardcore players asking for better stuff is the fact that they're asking for better stuff? And how it "doesn't really matter!"

 

I mean, it's not as if casual players will really notice the majority of the changes that hardcore players are looking for. It's also not unreasonable to say that the changes that they want are for the overall betterment of the game - "Ilum is really messed up!" "Slicing is way too easy money!" "These animations are not responsive!" "Crafting needs to be better!" "Your class mirroring is not really mirroring!"

 

How, I might ask, would these harm the casual player? If these seem like loaded examples, I'd like to see someone present a case in which a request that's common with hardcore players harms the casual base?

 

(the animations problem is one thing that I actually really care about. My control/utility abilities don't go off until like, forever. I can really feel it in PVP.)

 

It's not what they ask for, it's they way they ask for it with entitlement attitude born from who knows where. Being "great" at computer games is not such a good thing; it's not like they're finding the cure of AIDS or Cancer, it's not like they are an amazing leader, or a brilliant engineer. They're good at a computer game, which is a leisure activity...

[aimbotcfg]

Someone who comes here and posts a barely legible post and then continues to call everyone a bad who doesnt agree with him gets jumped on, yeah, presentation and some skill in argueing your point without insulting others go a long way.

 

Also, this game attracts a lot of older players, many of us were once hardcore ourselves, we know what we play and why we play it.

 

Pardon? I post here all the time and there's nothing illegible about my post. Also, I don't class myself as a 'hardcore' player and well done on following your own advice about not being insulting when you post.

 

This is what I'm talking about. I've insulted no one in this thread, I've just stated facts. People make reasonable requests then get called the scum of the earth for doing so.

 

What do I get? A quote telling me that my posts are barely legible (a gross exageration), straight up lying about what I've posted (I've at no point called anyone bad), then some closing comment about "I used to be like that, now I'm above it".

 

Thank you for proving my point better than any amount of sensible conversation could have.

[Alexbeav]

Since you actually seem to be sincere in asking the question, here are three serious problems with 'hardcore' players and their requests:

 

1. Some of the things they want are bad for the game as a whole. Examples: add-ons and macros. There are many threads hashing this out, so let's not do it again here.

 

How can having more options (customization and information) ends up hurting the game ? This is the point no one seems to be able to answer. Everyone is blaming 2 types of addons (Raid warning addons like DBM & damage meters), when there are myriad other types of addons. If I want to and can change my minimap from round to square form, how does is that a)bad for the game as a whole b)bad for your game ?

 

2. Development is zero-sum. If Bioware is working on A, that means less resources for B.

 

I have to disagree here with you. There is no single team, there is a Bioware studio, one of plenty operating under the Bioware moniker that is creating, testing and implementing content & features to the game. Bioware is not a single studio, or we would not see any content at all because, by your definition, they can't make i.e. Mass Effect 3 and work for content for SWTOR. Instead, what happens is, there is at least one studio focused on this MMO, with plenty of teams each dealing with a different portion of the game. So no, a team working on new raids is not the same team working on a new flashpoint, and is not the same team working on space battles etc. etc.

 

It's a proven fact that most gamers are not, for example, progression raiders.

 

I define progression as killing a new boss. Does that make me a progression raider, to have cleared EV normal ? To people not looking into raiding, then yes, I am a progression raider. To people who only focus on raiding and are likely 14/15 EV, then no, I am a casual raider. Nothing is a "proven fact" until we get some real hard data.

 

Hardcore players agitating for fixes and expansions to level cap content are actively working against what the game really needs to succeed.

 

All players, not just hardcore, want fixes. And it's naive (at the least) to demand that the leveling cap be raised, this early in the game, and even more naive actually believing that such claims are honest.

 

I'm not going to debate your view on peoples attitude problems. I am too busy enjoying the game without paying attention to other people's complaints. But I, on principle, will not stand for false information that claims to be definitive. Stop exaggerating, be accurate in what you say, and provide references for "proven facts". And stay on topic.

 

@OP It's cool to hate "hardcore" players, because only the non-"hardcore" care that they can't easily get gear that's 4 ratings above the easily obtained gear. Hardcore players usually end up posting the most constructive criticism in a helpful manner. Bottom line, people just confuse 'hardcore' with 'elitist', 2 very different beasts.

[DrWill]

I don't know how true this is... this might just be your image of a basement-dwelling gamer nerd.

 

Still, nowhere do you mention anything about how the changes they ask for harm the casual gameplay experience.

 

It's a sadly all-too-accurate (by which I mean in a very, very small minority of cases it is accurate, and that in and of itself is too many) stereotype. Maybe with the increase in university tuition fees we'll notice a paradigm shift in that regard here in the UK, but that's an entirely tangential issue.

 

To answer your initial question, let me frame it for you another way: when 'hard core' players 'do down' the game, posting forum rants and rage across all four corners of the internet, cancelling their subscriptions and claiming dozens of their friends are doing so in tandem, they knock confidence in the game (and, according to some recent posts, confidence in the markets).

 

It might be a game that casuals really rather enjoy - but said 'casuals' worry that excess negativity means there won't be any game for them to enjoy in 6 or 12 months time, if the negativity spreads. It makes them overly defensive - they want people to be positive about the game, because they rely on their fellow players (including players who have yet to buy the game, and who's decisions will be influenced by publicity) to keep the server lights on. The 'casuals' know that it's the 'hard core' that review websites and magazines pander to - if the 'hard core' is raging, the publicity works against the hope (which I assume we all share, to varying degrees) that the game will be around long enough to sort out its problems.

 

I consider myself a casual gamer. I'm out at work all day, I play in my evenings and free weekends. I booked a fortnight's holiday for when TOR came out (a bit nerdy, I know) and I'm really enjoying the game. I see there are cracks and teething issues. I see there are major problems that need addressing within the engine and at endgame. But I don't see where OMGWTFBBQRAEG (which is what these forums generally consist of) is any more effective at communicating those issues to the development team that rational, objective posts and tickets framed in a more understanding context (like, funnily enough, the tone of your post: critical, but respectful).

 

I worry that the spread of negativity might artificially engineer the death of a game I and my friends are enjoying a great deal, but that doesn't mean I post in every thread that denigrates the game saying "Nothing's wrong! Nothing to see here! Everything forward and trust in the Lord!". I suspect, though, that a lot of the so-called 'Bioware Fanboys' are merely folks who share my concern about negativity killing the game, but haven't yet realised that fanning these internet arguments is counterproductive.

 

So while I agree with your argument that the specific changes the 'hard core' are seeking will generally have negligible effect on we casuals, the manner in which many 'hard core' go about seeking those changes may have a profound impact on us. Just my tuppence.

[Rigo]

I don't have a problem with "hardcore" or "casual". I have a problem with people that think something should be a certain way for everyone.

 

Like someone thinks the game is too easy and thinks it should be super hard for everyone.

 

Or they hate macros so no one should be allowed to use macros. They THINK its an unfair advantage.

 

They dont like addons because they THINK it plays the game for you. So all addons are bad.

[Alexbeav]

If the bar keeps getting lowered we get faceroll content like what we see in many other games now. I for one want a challenge and welcome it.

 

Content is already being facerolled, but you know what ? I actually like that normal raids are accessible, and that's part of their fun. That you can go inside a raid without stims, tactics, and proper PvE gear and with a little perception and quick thinking, can down most, if not all, bosses in the second try.

 

The only real hitch to the facerollingly normal raids are the bugs that plague most fights which add a bit of excitement/frustration to a fight

 

And that is also why I love raiding in SWTOR : if you want a more chilled-out experience, head for a normal raid and just have fun Even the loot distribution is designed around pugs and past nightmares about ninja/jawa looters

 

But if you want an even more intense and organized experience, switch to hard, which I feel currently is about the normal difficulty of most other MMOs raids. They even have separate lockouts so you can do both And if you're still looking for a challenge, try your hand in Nightmare mode.

 

Something for everyone

[aimbotcfg]

It's not what they ask for, it's they way they ask for it with entitlement attitude born from who knows where. Being "great" at computer games is not such a good thing; it's not like they're finding the cure of AIDS or Cancer, it's not like they are an amazing leader, or a brilliant engineer. They're good at a computer game, which is a leisure activity...

 

The same could be said about football, tennis, running.... All lesiure activities. Some make money out of it, some get really good at them but never quite make enough to live off of it. Same thing, just differing impressions to outsiders.

[Catch_TwentyTwo]

The same could be said about football, tennis, running.... All lesiure activities. Some make money out of it, some get really good at them but never quite make enough to live off of it. Same thing, just differing impressions to outsiders.

 

True, but no one is making money from playing SWTOR...

 

Any you never hear of a professional runner, footballer, tennis player going to Nike or Adidas and telling them to fix their f****ng sports shoes...

Edited January 20, 2012 by Catch_TwentyTwo

[utio]

I don't think it's just hardcore players that are asking for the examples you've given though. Give some more examples please. Personally I don't like people asking for stuff to be made available to a small percentage of the player base only. That and people moaning the game is too easy and that bioware need to increase difficulty, when all they need to do is use lower statted gear or not use companion. Again, I'm not sure it's just hardcores that ask though.

 

Everyone is different, and we all have our opinion of what the game should be like.

[aimbotcfg]

True, but no one is making money from playing SWTOR...

 

Any you never hear of a professional runner, footballer, tennis player going to Nike or Adidas and telling them to fix their f****ng sports shoes...

 

True, but guilds that made money in other MMO's have switched to SWTOR as a group.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure that if the running shoes fell apart just before the finish line so the profesional runner was unable to finish the race, they would be telling Nike to fix their *********** shoes. But standards are higher for things like shoes than they are games. You wouldn't buy a pair of shoes with no soles for full price under the promise that the soles would get mailed to you at some undisclosed point in the future when they had fixed a problem they were having with them.

Edited January 20, 2012 by aimbotcfg

[Davo]

I try to stay out of hardcore versus casual fights. I have been both in my many years of gaming.

 

Just for a bit of trivia numbers for everyone to digest. It is very easy to get to 50 in 4 days /played time. how long it takes you to wrap up those 96 hours is going to be different for each of us. Also, some will spend time exploring and hanging out with guildies rather than straight balls to the wall leveling, which can easily result in 6 days /played.

 

96 hours is all it takes, that is just 2.2 hours a day since pre-launch. At 144 hours. you are only looking at 3.4 hours a day.

 

Even casual players will be looking for things to do within months 2 and 3 of this game.

 

Yeah, some have bad attitudes about their complaints and vision of the game to come but most have a legitimate gripe buried within their trolling.

 

that's all I have, I will be going back to the game and might see these forums again in a month.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Davo

[FerrusPA]

I'll take a post full of entitlement and arrogance but containing well-made points and sensible suggestions over a shoddy "BIOWAER IS GREETEST!!!" post any day.

 

Edit: And then there's of course the fact that neither "Casual" nor "Hardcore" players exist. Or at least they exist as much as the much vaunted "middle class" in western societies...

Edited January 20, 2012 by FerrusPA

[Xerda]

I mean, it's not as if casual players will really notice the majority of the changes that hardcore players are looking for. It's also not unreasonable to say that the changes that they want are for the overall betterment of the game - "Ilum is really messed up!" "Slicing is way too easy money!" "These animations are not responsive!" "Crafting needs to be better!" "Your class mirroring is not really mirroring!"

 

How are these exclusively hardcore player issues?

Edited January 20, 2012 by Xerda

[Darth_Vala]

Its a vicious cycle. For most casual players who take maybe months *gasp* to reach level 50 and enjoy the storylines and questing and everything else that comes along the journey as well as playing a few different alts to experience different stories and classes.

 

For HC crowd its racing to 50 in a week and then completing everything worthwhile in 2 days and then coming to forums to cry that there is nothing to do. I agree with HC crowd that yes UI needs work (its coming), combat responsiviness is not as good as it should be. All these are usually shared conserns no matter if you are casual or hardcore gamer.

 

The difference is that most HC players complain for lack of endgame content on the week following release while most casuals would want the devs to focus on making the leveling process - "journey" as fun and smooth as possible.

 

Developers work hard and release new lvl 50 raid and new WZ in a months time. HC crowd is done with these 2 days after they are released - return to forums and cry in outrage again. Again a month later new update with new high level content is added to appease them. 2 days later its done and done....see where this is going?

 

Devs generally cant push endgame content as fast as the HC crowd demands it.

 

And quite a few casuals dont really like endgame. Its a boring grind for equipment that are marginally better then the ones you currently have equipped. I for one plan on making an alt immediately after hitting 50 and maybe do some hard flashpoints from time to time or pvp or whatnot but expect to play 10% at level 50 and 90% 1-49.

 

So like you propably figured out I am just about as casual as can be. I have no problems with HC crowd I'm just generally wishing "selfishly" that devs would use more time on content which is important to ME and where I play 90% of my time then on the time I play 10% on.

 

/ENDBIGWALLOFTEXTSORRY

[Gwal]

Curious thing is, the hardcore-segment of the playerbase is generally far, far, far more coherent, reasonable and sensible in their line of argumentation, as well as in their demands, than the casuals.

 

You could say the same of crafters, PvE'ers or RP'ers whenever you take one group and lump everyone outside that group together you will find that your specific group seems more coherent. It's not as simple as there being hardcore and non-hardcore. There are hardcore people that want full pvp loot there are hardcore that want FFA pvp within their own factions etc etc.

[Daxramas]

Hardcore players are only a problem when they think they're some higher level of being then other people.