Anyone who cares about swtor and its pvp should read this post.. points at Devs.

[Sumwun]

Bump for something that needs reading.

[Treebyrn]

I like some of the thoughts you had here.

 

Some of them seem ridiculous to me.

 

How in God's name can you justify debuffing characters who have spent the time and effort to get great gear because they have great gear? What's the point of gearing up if gearing up scores you a debuff in PvP?

 

The PvP stat exists so that Rakata gear and other PvE sets won't trivialize PvP efforts.

 

Expertise has no use in PvE, so PvPers can't jump the line and start doing higher-up encounters without gearing in lower ones first.

 

PvE sets have no Expertise, so PvPers will do better at fighting other players, and in order to be truly effective in PvP, PvEers will have to gear up through the normal (and absolutely terrible, fix discussion at http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=204881 ) PvP progression.

 

Penalizing people for having more gear than others is ******* insane.

 

Here in lies the issue... people are bent on separating pvp and pve gear, this segregates the community and limits the players on what they can and will do. The pvp only gear (that is very much needed as it stands) creates an un-needed meat grinder that players must go through to get for themselves. Because the gear is a must have to be competitive you will never be able to truly balance the game... empire players are not going to re-roll to help balance the factions and any little bug that players find that speed up the process of getting said gear will be exploited each and every time.... WHY because people want that gear and they want it as quick as passable.

 

 

What any true pvper should want is more players (this is player vs player after all) and not less players and lets face it this current system does not encourage more players.. in fact it has players quiting. I am sure that those who are decked out in full pvp gear would argue that this system is fine, after all they are on top but how many of you would stick around if you had to start from square one? I am sure not many would but this is exactly what you are asking any new player and anyone that did not grind warzones against lev 20 characters or get in on the good illum pvp farming.

 

I am not going to rehash all the good ideas that have been mentioned already but the fact remains that if Bioware allows the pvp side of the game to remain as it stands then they will forever struggle to retain its pvp player base long term.

[-Zajo-]

Well written post by the quoted in the OP.

 

At least there will be a thousand players reading your ideas, unfortunately the people we need to read and understand will not.

[Almghty_gir]

the only reason i suggested the debuff, was because it is the lesser of the three evils (pvp stat vs debuffing pve stats vs having no pvp/pve stats), by that, i mean i would get LESS opposition to this suggestion than i would to having pvp/e gear being equal in all regards.

 

as i previously mentioned, i don't even have a problem with no pvp stat, AND pve gear being better, in fact i couldn't care less, because i know i'll beat a pve player every time.

 

in that one regard, i recognise i am a vocal minority, and that there are hundreds of thousands of players who would disagree.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Almghty_gir

[Erasimus]

The OPs post was well written, but I personally disagree with most, if not all of the premises.

 

First I've been only been playing MMOs for about 7+ years. WoW since release, and I've tried multiple others (Rift, AION, Warhammer, LoTR, etc.) Only WoW and now SWTOR have been able to keep my interest.

 

On WoW I've been a radier since Vanilla and have PvP'd almost as long.

 

Faction Imbalance - It is too early to tell just how bad it will be going forward. Take myself for example. Whether on the same server or not I always play characters on every faction available. This is especially true with this game since the class quests are different and, to me, very enjoyable. I've recently stopped leveling my Empire characters and have been leveling my Republic characters specifically because of the Imbalance. It wouldn't surprise me if others have done the same. Because you can do this, even on PvP servers, the numbers may not be completely accurate.

 

PvP vs PvE gear - I prefer that they are different (expertise/resilience whatever, and look). I'm not in a rush to complete the game. Someone once made a comment to me about "playing through" an MMO, my reply was that I don't think that concept is meaningful, nor should it be, in an MMO context. I like the fact that there are two different path options PvP/PvE I can pursue. The skill-sets, mindsets, etc. are very different for each. For me, and probably for others, working my way through the different tiers both PvP and PvE is how I learn the specific skills, fight mechanics, and WZ strategies. So by the time I'm ready for end-game in either I'll be pretty well geared.

 

Gear/Content progression (or if you prefer grinding) is part of every MMO I've played and really for me an enjoyable part.

 

P.S. Faction Loyalty - While I'm not an RP'er I'm loyal to whichever faction I'm currently playing. People that would "spy" by playing the other faction and relaying information, say on vent, are the same kind of people that AFK in battlegrounds and use exploits. They will always find a way to cheat, its what they do.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Erasimus

[GameNirvana]

I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but... the industry has been recycling the same guys from game to game. These issues have been brought up in the forums of all these wow clones and despite this, do the exact same thing on the next wow clone. I remember the pvp stats, burst damage, stuns, elite geared toons rolling fresh 50's until they give up, were out of control in Warhammer, Rift and now this game.

 

I their statements that they are taking PvP "seriously" or there is heavy PvP "focus" on development. They all end up being **** copy paste of wow, with the added bonus of out of control mathematics.

 

By all means, air your concerns, though I mean no disrespect by saying they will not listen to you. They didn't listen in the other games, they didn't listen during this beta, they surely are not going to listen now.

 

This game is fun though for enjoying rolling a toon to 50 and enjoying the story. Unfortunately the lvl 50 PvP is garbage and the game loses it's staying power. I sure as hell am not going to pay 15 bucks a month to get farmed all day only to try and get lucky with the gear bags.

 

Unfortunately I do believe you're right. I'm not gonna give up tho until I see for myself that they are going to continue copying WoW

[Killadrix]

No it isn't. It is making end-game gear IDENTICAL IN ALL TIERS (both PvP and PvE), except for a single scaling stat that ONLY affects PvE.

 

So by making PVP gear inferior, you make a system where PVE'ers will get gear with better stats and faceroll PVP.

 

K, got it.

[Erasimus]

Unfortunately I do believe you're right. I'm not gonna give up tho until I see for myself that they are going to continue copying WoW

 

WoW was, and is still, the most successful subscription (highest profit margin) MMO in the history of MMOs. Asking an MMO developer to not copy from the industries most successful example is, well, unreasonable. I suspect it will be quite some time before you see any major MMO that deviates significantly from this formula, the ones that have tried so far have failed hard.

 

The story based content in SWTOR is a enough of a departure from the WoW formula and is one of the primary reasons my "WoW" time has gone to almost 0 while I'm playing this game.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Erasimus

[Kerishnak]

FIRST FORUM POST! But anyway, I agree...

[Killadrix]

Unfortunately I do believe you're right. I'm not gonna give up tho until I see for myself that they are going to continue copying WoW

 

Hey guys, I am going to start a shipping business.

 

Instead of copying an already proven popular and successful business model and attempt to improve up on it, I am going go it fresh and make all the same mistakes the already established and successful companies have made before learning and refining their models to the one they are currently using to make tons of money.

 

Seems productive.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Killadrix

[GameNirvana]

WoW was, and is still, the most successful subscription (highest profit margin) MMO in the history of MMOs. Asking an MMO developer to not copy from the industries most successful example is, well, unreasonable. I suspect it will be quite some time before you see any major MMO that deviates significantly from this formula, the ones that have tried so far have failed hard.

 

The story based content in SWTOR is a significant departure from the WoW formula and is one of the primary reasons my "WoW" time has gone to almost 0 while I'm playing this game.

 

It is the highest money making MMO b/c it at one time revolutionized MMOs and wasn't afraid to do things differently.

 

At the same time, the game sucks balls. The only reason it is still the biggest ticket in MMOs is because investors are too fu cking stupid to realize that copying it isn't the way to make money. Improving it isn't really the way to make money.

 

BW did one thing right (one big thing I mean). They made questing far better. That's it. Great job. PvP still sucks at end game.

 

The company that isn't afraid to break the mold and make PvP as popular in MMO as it is in FPS will be biggest ticket in town.

 

I have my own personal beliefs that EA is the culprit behind BW failure to make this a game that stands on its own. EA was their money, and thus I think EA is what didn't allow them to break the PvP mold. TOR PvP is almost a straight copy from WoW. I think EA was the dumb committee that wanted to play it safe and just steal players from WoW by copying them. I think BW woulda been brave enough to try something new had it been their own money. Yes, I'm a fanboy, but I'm still doing some harsh criticizing of BW.

[Scoobings]

The idea about the pvp stats isn't a terrible one, but the 5% debuff would probably have to be larger. The debuff has to be significant enough that PVP gear, and crafting gear (imo), is still the go to gear for PVP.

 

I don't understand how that's any different then having expertise, but since the result is the same I really could care less if that's how it's implimented. You have to understand though, that it won't prevent fresh 50s from getting whomped on by geared 50s because that's the nature of verticle progression. There's no way around it, so if that's not your thing you should play a game without it.

[Rhinoplat]

I don't agree at all with number 1.

 

The way to move forward is to completely move away from factions at the end game for PvP. This is accomplished by making everything guild vs guild and make it like EvE or Shadowbane.

 

The same system that EvE uses with it's 4 factions for hi-sec space and then corps/alliances in 0.0 space, could be used in SWTOR. SWTOR could have a few dedicated planets where guilds can build mini cities and fight over those cities. Factions have not been removed from the story part of the game, but they are replaced in the PvP end game.

 

Factions still can do warzones and factions can still do storylines.

 

Moving away from factions to guilds gives a lot more freedom then in how guilds can interact with one another. These planets need to have the same rule set as Outlaw's Den, where battles are fought as a guild and not a faction; since anyone can attack anyone under the Outlaw's Den ruleset.

 

Since moving to a guild system would work, argument number 1 falls apart, and then the rest of his arguments fall apart since they are stacked one on top of another. Number 2 would not be possible in a guild vs guild scenario on new planets, because faction imbalance would no longer matter.

 

Number 3 would be less of a concern since groups would now be 24 man op groups, therefor gear would be less of a concern as larger groups battle are the norm. BattleMaster gear really only effects the 8 man warzones, and that effect is diminished the larger the group gets.

 

So no, I don't agree really with the OPs quote from another player. BioWare needs to move a totally new direction, with better content.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Rhinoplat

[Erasimus]

It is the highest money making MMO b/c it at one time revolutionized MMOs and wasn't afraid to do things differently.

....

The company that isn't afraid to break the mold and make PvP as popular in MMO as it is in FPS will be biggest ticket in town.

....

 

While I certainly respect your opinion, I don't agree. MMOs have a far broader audience than FPS games do and, as in WoW, hard core PvP'ers are usually the minority. My son enjoys both, FPS games, and MMOs (including) PvP. The social aspect of MMOs is important to much of the audience. The FPS crowd seems to be less concerned with the social aspect. For all of the complaints about WoW PvP, and believe me there have and continue to be many, it hasn't seemed to affect the bottom line or the enjoyment of the majority of players.

 

From the comments on the forums other MMOs have had better PvP than WoW, where are they now?

 

At any rate I hope that they continue to improve this game, including the PvP but I would expect any changes in PvP to be relatively slow in coming (excluding the already planned ones like rated WZs.) Fixing the ability lag and new content are, and should be, in my opinion, higher priority.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Erasimus

[Scoobings]

While I certainly respect your opinion, I don't agree. MMOs have a far broader audience than FPS games do and, as in WoW, hard core PvP'ers are usually the minority. My son enjoys both, FPS games, and MMOs (including) PvP. The social aspect of MMOs is important to much of the audience. The FPS crowd seems to be less concerned with the social aspect. For all of the complaints about WoW PvP, and believe me there have and continue to be many, it hasn't seemed to affect the bottom line or the enjoyment of the majority of players.

 

From the comments on the forums other MMOs have had better PvP than WoW, where are they now?

 

At any rate I hope that they continue to improve this game, including the PvP but I would expect any changes in PvP to be relatively slow in coming (excluding the already planned ones like rated WZs.) Fixing the ability lag and new content are, and should be, in my opinion, higher priority.

 

I think there is a highly lucrative niche market for PVP in MMOs. If you need proof, one only needs to look at MOBAs where right now there are multi-millions of dollars changing hands in sponsorships and advertisements. MOBAs are very similar to MMOs, and it proves that the format of an objective based arena that is HIGHLY SPECTATOR FRIENDLY can be extremely lucrative.

 

As soon as an MMO figures out a way to bring this to the table without sacraficing pve content they will be rolling in dough, mark my words.

 

The ideas presented though are kind of shortsighted. Basically it just looks to me like pvers not wanting to have to farm two sets, and forgive me if this is not the case. All the suggestions put forward will still leave fresh 50s out to dry, it will just make it so they get stomped by geared pvers as well.

 

This is because, wait for it, in games where there is any sort of progression at all the player who has been playing longer will always have the advantage. Period. MMOs are a game of progression, so people who complain about not being viable at fresh 50 need to learn how MMOs with this kind of progression functions because it's getting kind of silly. If you spent the time whining on the forums and writing "well written articles" pvping and more time learning your class and accruing gear you'd probably be there by now.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Scoobings

[Kelhemvor]

I disagree with most of what was written in the OP's quotted post. (Full disclosure : Republic Vanguard Trooper talking from Darth Bandom where Imps outnumbers 3 to 1 on a good day)

 

1. Heavily incentivise the underdog faction by doing the following

- Although I do agree that Ilum is a bit pointless at the moment, giving Tenacity type buffs also breaks the game as we've seen before. It fixes some issues but raises others just as bad (like 2 shotting people). From what we've seen and what BW has written about it, they want fights to last for a while before someone dies, and they seem to be working that way with things like Resolve.

- About the valor per kill issue, this is already being taken care of with the diminishing returns we already have in the game. Kill the same person twice in a short time (minutes) and you get no or reduced valor rank. Which is working fine in my opinion.

- Dividing valor rank rewards by the number of people would make it impossible for the more numerous group to ever complete their quests as it stands. In fact, I do believe it takes way longer for Imps to complete their 30 kills quest in Ilum at the moment than Rep, which makes total sense since they outnumber us 10 to 1. Also, although this is just an opinion based on what I've experienced, it is probably impossible for 40 people to tag you for a kill. Tagging implies damaging for most classes, and after 5-8 abilities cast on me (as a tank) I'm usually dead.

- Cross faction players, this is really a non issue. If you love PvP, you also love to hate your enemy. I know the guilds and names of a lot of Imps already that I would go out of my way to pwn in Wz and Ilum. The only reason I have an alt on imp side is to check the pop imbalance and to experience the PvE side.

 

 

2. remove pvp stats from the game immediately.

- Just no. PvP stat is there for a reason, to differentiate play styles (PvP vs PvE) and keep players interested. PvPers want challenge. We play to win. We grind when needed to get the gear to allows us a chance at glory at the top of the ladder. Make every level 50 have the same gear "level" and it breaks this in my opinion. I don't want a new level 50 come in a WZ and have a chance against my full Champion set. You want to PvP, you are new, you start at the bottom of the ladder, just like the rest of us. Did we get there ahead of you and now it's harder for you to climb the ladder ? Well sorry, but I love PvP that much more than you.

 

3. The bolster system and brakets.

- I love the bolster system, but the 50 braket was and is a necessity. It fixed all the problems I had with Warzone. Good job BW.

 

4. Population Imbalance, this one is a tricky issue, but since 1.1 and the level 50 brakets I have no more issue with it. At first it was breaking warzones as Imps had way more level 50 than Rep, and the bolster system was not cutting it. Now though, I really feel like the PvP community on Rep side has a more concentrated group of good players, while the Rep community of good players is spread over a wider base. This effectively made the Imps the underdog in WZ overnight, and I'm loving it while riding the wave . For the past 2 days, our guild premade groups of 4 have been winning at around 7 out of 10 matches.

 

 

 

All in all, I want to congratulate BW on making instanced PvP great! But you guys must keep working on Open World PvP. Keep up the good work!

[GameNirvana]

At any rate I hope that they continue to improve this game, including the PvP but I would expect any changes in PvP to be relatively slow in coming (excluding the already planned ones like rated WZs.) Fixing the ability lag and new content are, and should be, in my opinion, higher priority.

 

This we can agree on for sure.

 

The Frame rate in Ilum on LOW setting is absolutely ridiculous. I just bought and put together this very nice desktop. I know it's not my computer b/c the CPU was at 40% and RAM at 12% while in combat. However, the frame rate was 6.0.

 

This is not acceptable.

[Scoobings]

I disagree with most of what was written in the OP's quotted post. (Full disclosure : Republic Vanguard Trooper talking from Darth Bandom where Imps outnumbers 3 to 1 on a good day)

 

1. Heavily incentivise the underdog faction by doing the following

- Although I do agree that Ilum is a bit pointless at the moment, giving Tenacity type buffs also breaks the game as we've seen before. It fixes some issues but raises others just as bad (like 2 shotting people). From what we've seen and what BW has written about it, they want fights to last for a while before someone dies, and they seem to be working that way with things like Resolve.

- About the valor per kill issue, this is already being taken care of with the diminishing returns we already have in the game. Kill the same person twice in a short time (minutes) and you get no or reduced valor rank. Which is working fine in my opinion.

- Dividing valor rank rewards by the number of people would make it impossible for the more numerous group to ever complete their quests as it stands. In fact, I do believe it takes way longer for Imps to complete their 30 kills quest in Ilum at the moment than Rep, which makes total sense since they outnumber us 10 to 1. Also, although this is just an opinion based on what I've experienced, it is probably impossible for 40 people to tag you for a kill. Tagging implies damaging for most classes, and after 5-8 abilities cast on me (as a tank) I'm usually dead.

- Cross faction players, this is really a non issue. If you love PvP, you also love to hate your enemy. I know the guilds and names of a lot of Imps already that I would go out of my way to pwn in Wz and Ilum. The only reason I have an alt on imp side is to check the pop imbalance and to experience the PvE side.

 

 

2. remove pvp stats from the game immediately.

- Just no. PvP stat is there for a reason, to differentiate play styles (PvP vs PvE) and keep players interested. PvPers want challenge. We play to win. We grind when needed to get the gear to allows us a chance at glory at the top of the ladder. Make every level 50 have the same gear "level" and it breaks this in my opinion. I don't want a new level 50 come in a WZ and have a chance against my full Champion set. You want to PvP, you are new, you start at the bottom of the ladder, just like the rest of us. Did we get there ahead of you and now it's harder for you to climb the ladder ? Well sorry, but I love PvP that much more than you.

 

3. The bolster system and brakets.

- I love the bolster system, but the 50 braket was and is a necessity. It fixed all the problems I had with Warzone. Good job BW.

 

4. Population Imbalance, this one is a tricky issue, but since 1.1 and the level 50 brakets I have no more issue with it. At first it was breaking warzones as Imps had way more level 50 than Rep, and the bolster system was not cutting it. Now though, I really feel like the PvP community on Rep side has a more concentrated group of good players, while the Rep community of good players is spread over a wider base. This effectively made the Imps the underdog in WZ overnight, and I'm loving it while riding the wave . For the past 2 days, our guild premade groups of 4 have been winning at around 7 out of 10 matches.

 

 

 

All in all, I want to congratulate BW on making instanced PvP great! But you guys must keep working on Open World PvP. Keep up the good work!

 

I've posted this before, but my thread got buried under QQ. What is your opinion of a shifting bolster? One that adjusts itself dynamicly based not on the population of sides, but which side is winning. Effectively keeping the fight more focused on the center instead of being stuck in the base?

 

(ex. Imperials have pushed the rebels back, and captured southern assault. All rebels with a physical location south of Central assault get a 10% boost in stats, damage, and CC resistance. When the imperials push further and take an Ion Cannon at Reb base, the rebels get another stack of this buff, and it's now 20%. etc.)

 

The benefit of this is that it keeps fighting in the center, and it makes people who are worth more valor, also more of a threat.

[Scoobings]

Double post. Edited January 20, 2012 by Scoobings

[PeacefulViolence]

The devs really need to see this thread, it could help them make PvP better and remedy the faction imbalance situation.

[Kelhemvor]

@Scoobings

 

Talking exclusively about Ilum, Im not sure what they can do to fix it. If they want an open world PvP, then there is not many ways to properly fix it other than having balanced faction. One way to do that is to instance the region like they are trying to do. But this is making it unplayable for a lot of Imps since their instance is empty.

 

I'm not really fond of Tenacity type buffs, as there is often/always a way to exploit that and end up 2 shotting people.

 

There are many ways in which they could fix this if they added zone benefits to capturing like objectives (like specialty vendors or what not) but this would also mean adding a timer type mechanic to the zone, which makes it not an Open World PvP and more of a long timer based Defender/Attacker warzone. They did mention that this is somewhat what they were intending before launch, but didn't have time to properly implement/test it before launch and had to pull it. So for now I think we just have to live with what it is now, a fishing contest (with harpoons) at chokes points in the base.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Kelhemvor

[Almghty_gir]

sorry, who said anything about a damage buff? it certainly wasn't me.

[Almghty_gir]

This we can agree on for sure.

 

The Frame rate in Ilum on LOW setting is absolutely ridiculous. I just bought and put together this very nice desktop. I know it's not my computer b/c the CPU was at 40% and RAM at 12% while in combat. However, the frame rate was 6.0.

 

This is not acceptable.

 

graphics settings have nothing to do with it. i can run the game with everything on high and forced AA/AF in tray tools (ati), and get 15 fps. and i can turn everything on low and disable AA/AF in tray tools and still get the same 15 fps.

 

the low frame rates on ilum have NOTHING to do with graphics settings.

 

i'm running:

i7 2600k @5.2Ghz (i'm a character artist, i need the processing power for apps like mudbox/zbrush/3dsmax)

8GB RAM @2Ghz

ATI 6950 2GB @ 6970 specs (flashed bios)

[Kelhemvor]

sorry, who said anything about a damage buff? it certainly wasn't me.

 

 

You are right, I misread your post. Although I still don't agree with a Valor buff based on population. I think it would cause a lot of exploiting potential on the underdog side, and cause quite a headache to implement and fix in the long run. But it might make people reroll Rep (which might have been your point), but no one wants to be "highly encouraged" to switch faction or else the game is and stays broken... that would make me question BWs judgement.

[Tierce]

The point about zergs being incentivized by EVERYONE getting the same valor for a kill is one that really needs to be looked at. This along with the fact that healers appear to get screwed in the current system, as they do not do any damage to the target. I don't know how anyone thought this design was worthy of being pushed live to this game.

 

Valor gains from kills absolutely needs to be divided evenly to everyone in a group that gets a kill. This would discourage zergs and encourage small groups, and Bioware, you have to know that your servers would function a lot better with lots of smaller skirmishes than they are with these huge zergs. I guess there might be questions about which group should get the valor from a kill if there were multiple groups involved in said kill. I would vote for group that does the most damage to the player, but if that is just too difficult to program, group that gets the killing blow might be ok. Maybe it could even be split between multiple groups, but if that is done, it should be divided there as well. The more people involved in a kill, the less valor each player should get.