The right to complain

[Aximand]

+1

 

Well saig, and I agree.

 

+1 for having a sniper named Larkin.

[imtrick]

I'm very sorry, but no matter how many times you claim that the only people who don't like the game are trolls, that does not make it true. Go look at most of the threads that are posted by people who want something different and you will see this. Indeed, I predict someone will come along and say in this very thread "if you don't like it get out".

 

I didn't say that, and in fact, I've seen several "I quit" threads in the last few days where people had complaints. They'd articulate those complaints, and then give their opinion as to what they thought would improve things.

 

You know what happened? They were well-received. They started discussions, instead of flame wars. They weren't closed by moderators.

 

What we don't need is more people screaming about how this game sucks and EA is evil and how they got ripped off. That doesn't help this game in any way, and this forum is here to make the game more enjoyable for people, not less. Sure, maybe you want to vent, but that's just not what the forums are intended for (and yes, I realize I'm speaking for Bioware here, but I'm 100% confident it's the truth).

 

This forum is for people who play the game, and want to see it improve. If someone has nothing to contribute to that end, then all they're doing is taking up space and disrupting everyone else. Bashing the game and its players doesn't do anyone who's interested in the success of this game any good, and I see no reason it should be tolerated.

[Thayan]

I'm going to guess you've never played a MMO from launch before. This is probably a fair assumption, because even if you'd played beta and loved the game, you failed to understand that the game wouldn't be perfect at launch, no matter how much you thought it would be.

 

I'm not trying to be inflammatory, I'm stating the facts: No game comes out at launch perfect. There are ALWAYS huge issues from the very first day that can last for up to and through the first YEAR.

 

 

I've beta-tested most of the popular games since the original EQ. (I still have the Phase 4 Everquest Beta CD that was snail-mailed to us.)

 

My main point I was trying to make is, that there is a large amount of pushback regarding negative posts here. Regardless if they are constructive or not. I just wanted to convey why some of us are so vocal. We are not happy in the direction of the game that we invested so much in - that's all.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Thayan

[Supercaptain]

You have no "rights" here, and certainly no right to complain.

 

If you have an interest in making the game better, great. That's one of the things this forum is here for. It's for players of the game. It's not for ex-players of the game, or people who just want to complain about how the game sucks. It's not here to vent about everything you personally hate about the game, or how you think it's not worth what you paid for it.

 

Hey, I sympathize if you have gripes, but if all you want to do is bash and whine, no, nobody has a "right" to do that. It's selfish and doesn't do any good other than maybe making you feel a little better.

 

If you've got something constructive to say, great. Otherwise, you've overreached any "rights" you may have had.

 

You do realize that people complaining that the game sucks based on very specific factors which they explain is helping make the game better, right?

[GOCOLTS]

Yeah...

 

You're assuming that those who are saying there's no "right to complain" don't have issues with the game as well. Of course we do, we're just understand that we're expected to be reasonable in how we present them.

 

But by all means, please continue with your binary mindset, if it makes the world seem more comfortable to you.

 

seriously? where did i ever say that they don't have issues with the game as well? I was saying that the people who always come to the defense of BW with the comments i listed in my post aren't who BW, going forward, is going to try to appeal to.

 

It's simple economics.

 

When you sell something, and have people who will always buy it, you don't make future decisions based on them. You base your decisions on how to get new customers.

[Wilddancer]

I like the game, if you dont like it dont re-sub i know the game isnt going anywhere. The subscriber base may drop but you wont see the game fail in under a year. Hell SWG lasted a very longtime after the big uproar over the CU and NGE. I left WoW for ToR and im going to stay here. WoW is becoming to redundant for me and the bias towards the horde is ridiculous .

[Beranzen]

The problem is that constructive criticism is shouted down just as fast as trolling.

 

Anyone arguing for mods, addons and macros is told to go back to WoW.

 

Anyone trying to discuss PvP is told it's a story only game and they should have known that.

 

Anyone discussing open world features or , indeed, ANYTHING from ANY other MMO, is told that if they don't like to unsub.

 

There are VERY VERY few people who like the game that are willing to engage in anything approaching even polite disagreement, much less discussion. So then people get angry and insults fly and then they are dismissed as "trolls" and "haters".

 

I'm very sorry, but no matter how many times you claim that the only people who don't like the game are trolls, that does not make it true. Go look at most of the threads that are posted by people who want something different and you will see this. Indeed, I predict someone will come along and say in this very thread "if you don't like it get out".

 

This does work both ways. It's just like when someone who likes the game, or supports Bioware is called a fanboi. I dont want people to leave, but if all they can offer is negativity, then I can't be bothered to worry about how they feel. But you are right, the attacks in both cases do NOT help us in any way. I've been guilty of it myself, and I try not to fall for it.

[imtrick]

You do realize that people complaining that the game sucks based on very specific factors which they explain is helping make the game better, right?

 

No, I disagree. Blindly lashing out at some feature or perceived omission in the game isn't helping anyone. It starts flame wars, discourages open communication about the issues, and doesn't do much other than disrupt would could be a perfectly usable, productive forum. Someone who can't do anything more than bash the game isn't looking for a conversation, and isn't looking to improve anything.

 

If someone wants to talk rationally about those issues, great. That's helpful. Mindless bashing is not.

 

You want an example? Look at this thread. People are being generally level-headed, and look... we're talking about it. If the OP had jumped in and said "I'm going to complain, and screw you fanboys, you refuse to see how screwed up this is," we wouldn't still be here. At least I know I wouldn't.

 

A lot more gets done this way.

Edited January 20, 2012 by imtrick

[SamuraBob_Fl]

You do realize that people complaining that the game sucks based on very specific factors which they explain is helping make the game better, right?

 

If there were more of those threads, the forums would be a much better place. But there seems to be lot more of "Lolz boiware failz only fanboiz cant see it!!!11!!"

[DirtyDozen]

I look forward to this becoming a place where you can complain rationally and make suggestions that will be discussed.

 

I have complaints. I have issues with the game. I want to be able to discuss those things. This game will never improve without feedback, plain and simple.

 

But I do take exception to the rants and raging. All it does is stir up opposition and then it carries over into every single thread on the forums where everything breaks down into "haters" vs. "fanboys".

 

I don't think it will ever completely go away, but in a couple weeks it should subside and then maybe we can get down to the business of improving the game.

Edited January 20, 2012 by DirtyDozen

[GOCOLTS]

By your same reasoning, one could also make the argument that Bioware shouldn't listen to those who aren't satisfied because they never will be, no matter what Bioware does. Both statements are equally simplistic and eyeroll-worthy.

 

People that hate the game... ya they're lost. However, the people that complain about specific issues in the game are telling BW that they are unhappy with a certain aspect, and can still be swayed to play the game with fixes, and updates.

[GOCOLTS]

I look forward to this becoming a place where you can complain rationally and make suggestions that will be discussed.

 

I have complaints. I have issues with the game. I want to be able to discuss those things. This game will never improve without feedback, plain and simple.

 

But I do take exception to the rants and raging. All it does is stir up opposition and then it carries over into every single thread on the forums where everything breaks down into "haters" vs. "fanboys".

 

I don't think it will ever completely go away, but in a couple weeks it should subside and then maybe we can get down to the business of improving the game.

 

No dude, any post that contains a complaint about anything in the game is always going to be highjacked by people telling you to go back to wow. It's been the same in the last 6 MMO's that have come out. These forums are no different, and no better than any of those.

[Trineda]

Greetings folks!

 

As a gentle reminder to everyone, please remember the following:

 

• Insults - Please do not resort to or use them in any way in your posts. Posts should be productive, not destructive.
  
• Trolling - Please do not post messages that are purposefully designed to provoke, antagonize, or otherwise elicit a negative emotional response.
  
• Agree to Disagree - Be respectful of others' viewpoints even if they are opposite of your own. Discuss disagreements constructively.
  
• Flag, Don't Fight - Utilize the Flag Post feature to report possible rules violations, rather than responding to or fighting them.
  
• Ignoring - If you feel you simply cannot get along with another community member, please place them on your ignore list.
  

 

Thank you!

[imtrick]

Just to toss this out there... I have complaints about the game. Several of them. I'll admit that overall I think it's pretty good with lots of potential, but I have some issues with it.

 

I'm hesitant to put some of them out there here on these forums, though, because I'd rather not feed the "Bioware Fails" crowd. I don't want to give anyone ammo. I don't want my concerns to be buried in yet another worthless "trolls vs. fanboys" thread.

 

Rabid attacks on the game lead to an atmosphere where people like me don't want to speak up, and that's probably a greater problem than a few nasty threads here and there.

[SamuraBob_Fl]

Just to toss this out there... I have complaints about the game. Several of them. I'll admit that overall I think it's pretty good with lots of potential, but I have some issues with it.

 

I'm hesitant to put some of them out there here on these forums, though, because I'd rather not feed the "Bioware Fails" crowd. I don't want to give anyone ammo. I don't want my concerns to be buried in yet another worthless "trolls vs. fanboys" thread.

 

Rabid attacks on the game lead to an atmosphere where people like me don't want to speak up, and that's probably a greater problem than a few nasty threads here and there.

 

Yeah I feel the same way. Personally I think the lack of legacy info (do I want to roll my alts now or do I need to wait to get the creation options I want) is a pretty big deal. All the threads on that have been pushed down though with repetitive complaints about trivia.

[DirtyDozen]

Just to toss this out there... I have complaints about the game. Several of them. I'll admit that overall I think it's pretty good with lots of potential, but I have some issues with it.

 

I'm hesitant to put some of them out there here on these forums, though, because I'd rather not feed the "Bioware Fails" crowd. I don't want to give anyone ammo. I don't want my concerns to be buried in yet another worthless "trolls vs. fanboys" thread.

 

Rabid attacks on the game lead to an atmosphere where people like me don't want to speak up, and that's probably a greater problem than a few nasty threads here and there.

 

I agree and feel the same way about posting my thoughts. I'm even concerned I would be told to go back to WoW (I actually came from RIFT) , and I really like this game and plan on playing as long as they keep improving it.

[Palathas]

One of the trends I've noticed with a lot of complaint or negative threads is that they don't really say anything. People will just write quotes of devs then just "you didn't do that." or "fail." They won't say in what way these statements weren't fulfilled, there is nothing of substance to them.

 

As others have said, sometimes you'll get a good constructive complaint thread that gets hijacked by Trolls and flamers so in the end the moderators just lock it. It's a shame the mods don't have the time or ability to scan these threads and just delete the irrelevant posts. I hope the devs are still able to glean something from the threads that this happens to.

[Zaskaszh]

I wouldn't call it a "right", it's more of a justifiable reason. And in any case, there's a difference between being unhappoy or dissatisfied, and being a psychopath. If you had dinner at my restaurant and told me you had an issue with your meal, I'd refund your bill without question and I'd feel like I'd let you, the customer, down.

 

If you told me I sucked, that my waitresses were all trash, that I should fire my kitchen staff, that you hoped my hostess died in a fire, that I was incompetent and then you started screaming at me to refund you NOW...

 

...I'd spit on a fifty dollar bill, toss it out the door into the street, flip you the bird, and order you to never show your face in *MY* restaurant again.

 

It's not what people are saying on the forums I take issue with (well, mostly)...it's HOW they say it. And no...no one has the "right" to act like those rage trolls do, and nothing anyone says in response is going to make their behavior justifiable.

 

Nothing.

[DirtyDozen]

I wouldn't call it a "right", it's more of a justifiable reason. And in any case, there's a difference between being unhappoy or dissatisfied, and being a psychopath. If you had dinner at my restaurant and told me you had an issue with your meal, I'd refund your bill without question and I'd feel like I'd let you, the customer, down.

 

If you told me I sucked, that my waitresses were all trash, that I should fire my kitchen staff, that you hoped my hostess died in a fire, that I was incompetent and then you started screaming at me to refund you NOW...

 

...I'd spit on a fifty dollar bill, toss it out the door into the street, flip you the bird, and order you to never show your face in *MY* restaurant again.

 

It's not what people are saying on the forums I take issue with (well, mostly)...it's HOW they say it. And no...no one has the "right" to act like those rage trolls do, and nothing anyone says in response is going to make their behavior justifiable.

 

Nothing.

 

Well said

[Liberate]

You have no "rights" here, and certainly no right to complain.

 

If you have an interest in making the game better, great. That's one of the things this forum is here for. It's for players of the game. It's not for ex-players of the game, or people who just want to complain about how the game sucks. It's not here to vent about everything you personally hate about the game, or how you think it's not worth what you paid for it.

 

Hey, I sympathize if you have gripes, but if all you want to do is bash and whine, no, nobody has a "right" to do that. It's selfish and doesn't do any good other than maybe making you feel a little better.

 

If you've got something constructive to say, great. Otherwise, you've overreached any "rights" you may have had.

 

Dont tell me I have no right to complain. The SGRA people wouldn't be quiet and constantly complained. Oh hey, fancy that, look at your sig! I bet if we searched far enough YOU probably complained about something.

 

Good for the geese, it's good for the gander

Edited January 20, 2012 by Liberate

[LordPhelan]

Criticism and complaining is not the issue in reality; its the extreme lack of understanding and patience most of the people doing the complaining have.

 

The general perception most of those who post the "Im canceling my account for XYZ" or "This game is doomed because it doesn't have XYZ" is of a 12 year old tossing a tantrum because they didn't get the toy they wanted right this second. People seem to post on here and expect when they log back in the game five minutes later to see the problem miraculously fixed.

 

Patching/fixing bugs takes time and testing, and almost every time you fix one thing you break 3 other things (Ilium for example). So imagine the work it actually takes just to implement a bran new feature into a game without completely screwing up something else.

 

Complain/Critique all you want, but people need to stop acting like children who got dragged out of Toys'R'Us without getting that awesome super toy they can't live without. Have some patience.

[Yvin]

Hello there,

 

While we do appreciate all forms of feedback, unfortunately we do not allow public discussion of moderation. We do understand that being moderated can be very frustrating. However, we ask that all inquiries, feedback and comments be emailed to us at communitysupport@swtor.com so that we may address your concerns one-on-one. Any feedback regarding moderation, whether positive or negative, is appreciated and welcomed.

 

In addition, for anyone who wishes to give feedback regarding the game, to please do so! Please remember, that we do ask that anyone submitting feedback do so in a constructive manner.

 

Thank you for understanding as to why we've closed this thread!